Merry Christmas

[Mark²]

While good works, alone, won't do the job, they don't hurt. It is
possible to be a good person, and to be rich. I recall M. Dell
funding insurance for uninsured children in central Texas while the
legislature debated their program to death. That has to go on the
plus side of the ledger.

Sure. It's good.
He also made sure that you heard all about it, and thatyou gave him "credit"
for it.
One of my pet peeves is when companies write a HUGE, 4-foot-long check to
some charity, and then throw themselves a big party to show how charitable
they are.

Yes...it's good and nice for the receiver...but it also becomes self-serving
at some point.

 

[Alan Browne]

Alan Browne wrote:


The difficulty comes because the "proof" of God doesn't come in a
scientifically measurable form.
There will always be that disparity, so if the scientist insists that God
follow this formula, you may simply be ensuring yourself that you miss it.

Believe me when I say how I wish it could be proven "scientifically" Alan.
I struggle with the propensity to demand scientific proof, and you're right
that faith becomes a clear factor. In the eyes of science, faith seems
foolish, and to those of us who value scientific thinking, this becomes a
problem. I haven't solved that problem even in my own thinking, so I really
do understand your point. I am convinced, though, that there is more to
existence than can be measured. I guess that in itself is a kind of faith,
regardless of whether I attribute that to God...but there it is. Not all
things can be logically explained. I think that's the ultimate
disparity...since the basic principle of science is that ALL things have a
coherant explanation...and that for those areas we don't understand, it's
merely because we haven't yet identified the logical explanation. I am
convinced that there are some areas that are, and will remain, beyond the
reach of scientific explanation. -Not because they are just too difficult
to get at, but because their very nature is at odds with scientific
laws/thoeries, etc. The concept of ultimate "beginning" will
never...ever...be explained. It is literally impossible to comprehend the
idea that there was ALWAYS matter of some kind. You can't comprehend it,
because it simply doesn't make scientific sense, and it NEVER will. At some
point, you bump up against that. Does this automatically point to a deity?
No. But...it the point at which science also falls apart. There will NEVER
be an explanation that accounts for the timeless existence of matter. -What
came before the big bang? How did that get there? What came before that?
How did that get there? What started it all? And what started the stuff
that started it all. This is doomed to being a forever-imponderable, and is
an example of a concept that will never be explained by science...or
religion.

I get ya. My SO and you would get along just fine.

Everytime scientists dig down (or out) there just seems to be more and
more to discover and it is harder and harder every time. I believe that
nature is so exceedingly complex and infinitely divisble that we'll
never glimpse the whole story, not even a significant part of it. And
that is okay.

Cheers,
Alan

 

[William Graham]

And God will be looking at the enormous good that Gates has done for
third-world countries through his charities.

I hope God also remembers the countless times that I have cussed Gates out
for having to fight with his miserable operating system, where the "Help"
vocabulary and the "error message" vocabulary have absolutely nothing in
common.....

Meanwhile you have people

 

[William Graham]

I disagree (obviously). Their atheism was at the core of their world-view.
In each case their goal was to establish their government by violently
excising religion. That is equivalent to killing people for religious
reasons (in this case the religion of atheism).

If Atheism is a religion, then you must admit that the word, "God" should be
stricken from all public records, buildings, statues, flags, pledges, and
etc.........Even I, as an atheist, wouldn't blame the holocaust on the
Christians........

 

[William Graham]

The First Amendment reads, in part:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
This does not say anythign about the President, or his religiosity. It
specifically prohibits *Congress* from making certain laws.

But it was Congress who changed the pledge of allegiance to the flag to
include the words, "under God" instead of "indivisible", back in the
50's......

 

[Barry L. Wallis]

If Atheism is a religion, then you must admit that the word, "God" should be
stricken from all public records, buildings, statues, flags, pledges, and
etc.........Even I, as an atheist, wouldn't blame the holocaust on the
Christians........

Actually, if atheism was considered a religion legally, it would
probably be difficult to remove the word God as that would mean that
Congress was preferring a particular religion, Atheism.

 

[William Graham]

Do you have any evidence to support that? Surely you don't think Hitler
just had all those Jews killed because he didn't like the 'death grip they
had on European economy'. And perhaps his paranoid megalomania had
something to do with Stalin being an atheist. Do we really know?

Yes. Hitler, (for one) believed in astrology.....He looked to the stars for
justification of his decisions.....There is the story of how, in 1944 he
went out on the veranda of his castle one evening in Bertesgarten, and
looked at the sky and knew that Germany was going to lose the war.....The
sky was black with B-17's.........

 

[Pudentame]

[...]

Are you all aware that you are broadcasting this nonsense to many groups
where such BS is considered inappropriate?

Yes, but which group are you cross posting from? Hmmmm?

 

[William Graham]

Actually, if atheism was considered a religion legally, it would probably
be difficult to remove the word God as that would mean that Congress was
preferring a particular religion, Atheism.

Seems pretty convoluted to me......Like the NLRB election they held where I
worked back in the 70's.....They had four unions and "no union at all" on
the ballot. "No union at all" won with about 35% of the vote....So....they
threw out "no union at all" (because it got less than 50%) and held another
election with just the four unions....... That's the same sort of convoluted
reasoning that would insist on the word "God" being there, because more than
50% believed in some God or other.....
Fortunately, it wouldn't matter....We atheists have no ax to grind....We
could care less, because we've got nothing to lose other than the miniscule
amount of taxpayers money it takes to carve the word, "God" into the stone
faces of the buildings.....It's the true believers who are hell bent on
killing each other over whether (for example) full immersion is necessary
for true baptism....:^)

 

[Pudentame]

Bush has never said that.

Actually, he said god tells him what to do.

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then He
instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined
to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I will act, and
if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

GWB to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abas, June 2003

Palestinian negotiator Nabil Shaath attended the meeting and says:

"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God.
God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.
And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in
Iraq... And I did.

"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, Go get the
Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get
peace in the Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

 

[Pudentame]

Saying that Bush said that God speaks to him is different from saying
that Bush said God speaks through him.

Which obviously he does. Goes in one ear and right out the other.

 

[Mark²]

Actually, he said god tells him what to do.

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then He
instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am
determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I
will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to
focus on them."
GWB to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abas, June 2003

Wow. Now THERE'S a reliable source (not!).
Don't be a sucker.

 

[William Graham]

Actually, he said god tells him what to do.

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then He
instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to
solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I will act, and if
not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

GWB to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abas, June 2003

Palestinian negotiator Nabil Shaath attended the meeting and says:

"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God.
God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.
And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in
Iraq... And I did.

"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians
their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the
Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

And he would, unless the evil Democrats come along, and put an end to his
efforts........

 

[Pudentame]

The First Amendment reads, in part:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
This does not say anythign about the President, or his religiosity. It
specifically prohibits *Congress* from making certain laws.

OTOH, the President swears an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the
Constitution of the United States". Amendments binding Congress not to
make laws bind the executive not to go outside the law.

The purpose of the 1st Amendment is as much to keep government out of
religion as it is to keep religion out of government.

 

[Pudentame]

Most Christians would use a phrase like that to describe the influence of
God in their lives. If it's scary to you, it's likely because you're simply
unfamiliar with the use of this phrase. It doesn't mean anyone is hearing
little voices, etc.

I'm afraid in george's case it does mean literally that.

 

[Pudentame]

Againl... He is being misquoted. He said, "God speaks TO me."

Oh, so you were there and *heard* him say that yourself?

 

[Pudentame]

Hey, how 'bout not back to Bush, or God, or Dog, or anything for a while?

How 'bout photography??

So, start a thread.

 

[William Graham]

He has said "God speaks to me", but that is quite different.
But that's just one take on it. there are those who believe that getting rid
of Saddam Hussein was more than justified by the Iraqi action, even if
600,000 were lost doing it....After all, Saddam killed over 2 million over a
30 year period, and he and/or his sons might very well have gotten 2 million
more during the next 30 years. So, just because you don't think the action
was justified, that doesn't mean that it wasn't, or that there aren't others
who think that it was.

 

[Mark²]

Hey, how 'bout not back to Bush, or God, or Dog, or anything for a
while?
How 'bout photography??

We're still photographers.
We just happen to also be people, and people are never single-minded.
We're familiar with each other here, so it's natural to branch off into
discussion...just as you would over teh lunch table at a photography
convention. It happens, and it's natural. There are other "tables" to sit
at (other threads), so it's not like this conversation is forced on anyone.

 

[Mark²]

Oh, so you were there and *heard* him say that yourself?

I am confident he didn't say that, because it would be entirely inconsistent
with anything he's ever stated he believes.