Merry Christmas

[Pudentame]

Tell that to the founding fathers.
They were clearly nuts...if it's nuts to believe you are led by God.

Some did, some did not ...

 

[Pudentame]

Who said anything about sin? It's no sin to give with a 4-foot check...or
however else you want to give. I only mention that according to the
Bible...in terms of the giver...God cares about the attitude of the giver
more than the gift itself.

Not according to Jesus:

Luke 21
1As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the
temple treasury. 2He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper
coins. 3"I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in
more than all the others. 4All these people gave their gifts out of
their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

Luke 20
45While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples,
46"Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in
flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the
most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at
banquets. 47They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy
prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."

 

[J. Clarke]

It comes from being constantly badgered by religious zealots.

I've never been "badgered by religious zealots", but then I don't bring
religion into every conversation either. In fact I try to avoide it as a
conversational topic--theology is interesting, religion as a
conversational gambit, on the other hand, is mostly good for starting
bar-fights.

 

[Alan Browne]

Actually, it was Nancy Reagan. Ronnie believed in Nancy; Nancy believed
in astrology.

Comes to the same thing. Where "cold war decisions" needed
"astrological" guidance. Nancy Reagan was not the president, so should
not have been involved beyond moral/spousal support.

Apparently, she gave great head too. Maybe kept Ronnie Ray-gun cool on
those tense cold war night.s

Cheers,
Alan

 

[J. Clarke]

That's scary enough, because he uses it as justification for killing
600,000 civilians in a war without having any plan to win it. I doubt
that's what God would have told him to do, and frankly his insistence
that it's what God told him to do is delusional.

In what war conducted while someone named "Bush" was in a position of
authority did the United States kill 600,000 civilians? Or are you one of
those misguided souls who thinks that every death listed on Iraqbodycount
was inflicted by the US military?

 

[Cynicor]

In what war conducted while someone named "Bush" was in a position of
authority did the United States kill 600,000 civilians? Or are you one of
those misguided souls who thinks that every death listed on Iraqbodycount
was inflicted by the US military?

Now remember, the bipartisan Iraq Study Group found that violent acts
were being undercounted in Iraq by as much as 90%. As an example, they
chose one day in July 2006. Our "official" count of violent acts was 93,
while they were able to identify 1,100.

The 600,000 number is actually the number of "excess" deaths - deaths
above what would be expected without the invasion. It was conducted by
the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health and published in the Lancet.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more
people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003
than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.

 

[William Graham]

Who said anything about sin? It's no sin to give with a 4-foot check...or

however else you want to give. I only mention that according to the
Bible...in terms of the giver...God cares about the attitude of the giver
more than the gift itself.

Just one more reason why I don't believe in Him.....I am bottom line
oriented, and any God I believed in would be also. It's not His business why
I give, or to whom I give. After all, it's my money, not God's.....So it's
my business to whom I give it, and why. If I depended on God to decide where
to put my money, then the world would be a much worse place than it is
already.....Most good men spend a lot of their time undoing the screwed up
works of God.....Helping the victims of Tsunamis, and earthquakes, for
example.....As a matter of fact, if it weren't for God, we would have it
made, and not have to do much of the charitable work that we do have to
do.....God, (IOW) is the real screw up. He's the one who causes most of the
damage to innocent people and animals.....It's a good thing that I don't
believe in Him.....If I did, I'd have to hate Him, not worship Him.....

 

[Mark²]

If it's not scientifically measurable, it's not "proof".

Not in terms of strict scientific method, no.
But there are other forms of evidence. -That they aren't "Admissible" in
that particular court doesn't always mean they don't contain evidence. It's
just evidence the scientific court has to exclude by it's own set of
well-conceieved, legitimate rules. Again...I understand why you might
exclude evidence you can't tag, quantify, etc. But don't be too quick to
assume that science holds the ONLY authority upon, or means through which
truth can be legitimately identified. I am a fan of science, actually. I
would be the first to criticize those "creationists" who blindly insist
about a 6 day creation...a young Earth...who feel threatened by Darwin, blah
blah blah. I think they are following the wrong path to reality, and make
themselves look a little tunnel-visioned. That said, I do leave room the
existence of things which science (no matter how advanced it may become)
will never be able to measure, quantify, confirm or scientifically observe.

 

[Mark²]

Not according to Jesus:

Luke 21
1As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the
temple treasury. 2He also saw a poor widow put in two very small
copper coins. 3"I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has
put in more than all the others. 4All these people gave their gifts
out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to
live on."
Luke 20
45While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples,
46"Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in
flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the
most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at
banquets. 47They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy
prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."

They'll be punished for their heartless and hurtful ways...like "devouring
widow's houses." In other words...God isn't fond of heartless, wicked
folk...EVEN IF they "pray" loudly for attention, or give...as a show of
their wealth, or to impress others, etc.

 

[Mark²]

Who said anything about sin? It's no sin to give with a 4-foot
check...or
Just one more reason why I don't believe in Him.....I am bottom line
oriented, and any God I believed in would be also. It's not His
business why I give, or to whom I give. After all, it's my money, not
God's.....So it's my business to whom I give it, and why. If I
depended on God to decide where to put my money, then the world would
be a much worse place than it is already.....

That would indeed be the crux of your difficulty with the concepts Jesus put
forth. A huge cornerstone of Christian belief is that we are to relinquish
our position of "master of all we survey" and instead se ourselves as
belonging to God. That's why most do NOT follow him...because that flies in
the face of human tendencies. If God merely wanted everyone to act however
they saw fit, Jesus wouldn't have had any reason to come to show a different
path.

Anyway... You've hit on the key element, William. That's the crux of
Christian thought...that you shift the focus from one's self, and decide you
relinquish the self-centered nature we are all born with. If that were
easy, or particularly attractive, then everyone would embrace the concept.
They don't, because it's not easy and not always attractive to bottom-line
folk such as yourself.

I can absolutely relate to your thinking, because I tend to be a bottom line
person too. This is why I have struggled with religion most of my adult
life, and even before.

Most good men spend a
lot of their time undoing the screwed up works of God.....Helping the
victims of Tsunamis, and earthquakes, for example.....As a matter of
fact, if it weren't for God, we would have it made, and not have to
do much of the charitable work that we do have to do.....God, (IOW)
is the real screw up. He's the one who causes most of the damage to
innocent people and animals.....It's a good thing that I don't
believe in Him.....If I did, I'd have to hate Him, not worship
Him.....

It's always fascinating to me to hear people's takes on natural disasters.
One of the global warming "threats" for example, is that coastal cities will
end up under water. Not to say that doesn't matter...because it does...and
is reason for concern...BUT... It's funny to me that more public folks
don't put it together that the EARTH itself could CARE LESS if the water
line consumes cities. It's been ebbing and flowing for millenia in just
such a fashion. The ONLY reason it's such a big deal to us is because in
the last number of centuries (in America)...or millenia (in many ancient
parts of the civilized world)...man has decided we want to build "permanent"
cities, buildings etc. Were we nomadic folk, it wouldn't make a heck of a
lot of difference how many tornadoes, cyclones/hurricanes, floods, tsunamis,
etc. happened. The bulk of the damage is to our little creations. The
earth itself does just fine with "newly-drawn" coastlines, etc. I don't
think natural disasters have any spiritual element whatsoever.
NONE. -Except to the extent that people tend to react spiritually and
reflectively when they occur. Other than that...what does it matter to the
Earth (as it was originally created) if a big wave comes, or a hurricane
digs a trough or two? We build all these little things that WE decide are
SO all important, and then we blame God when the world carries on as it
ALWAYS has. Nothing has changed. We've just declared our little choices as
all important, so we throw a fit at God when the world continues normally
despite our insistence that it bend to our wishes...and our million dollar
beach-side homes.

Further... IDIOT preachers all too often assign all sort of intent to God
as punishment for this and that. I think they're full of it. The God
referred to by/in Jesus indicates a God who is chiefly concerned with the
souls of people, and relationship with them. -NOT how long they live...how
big their house is...or how smoothly everything goes for them. IF eternity
is what matters, then the things we attach value to have usually been highly
over-valued in comparison. This is where we humans (myself included) are at
odds with the interests of the God described and demonstrated by Jesus.

Again, William. I'm nobody who could claim I've got it figured out. I have
doubts, questions, irritations and annoynaces with the whole concept too. I
just don't dismiss it the way you do. I don't blame you one little bit,
either.

 

[William Graham]

That would indeed be the crux of your difficulty with the concepts Jesus
put forth. A huge cornerstone of Christian belief is that we are to
relinquish our position of "master of all we survey" and instead se
ourselves as belonging to God. That's why most do NOT follow
him...because that flies in the face of human tendencies. If God merely
wanted everyone to act however they saw fit, Jesus wouldn't have had any
reason to come to show a different path.

Anyway... You've hit on the key element, William. That's the crux of
Christian thought...that you shift the focus from one's self, and decide
you relinquish the self-centered nature we are all born with. If that
were easy, or particularly attractive, then everyone would embrace the
concept. They don't, because it's not easy and not always attractive to
bottom-line folk such as yourself.

I can absolutely relate to your thinking, because I tend to be a bottom
line person too. This is why I have struggled with religion most of my
adult life, and even before.


It's always fascinating to me to hear people's takes on natural disasters.
One of the global warming "threats" for example, is that coastal cities
will end up under water. Not to say that doesn't matter...because it
does...and is reason for concern...BUT... It's funny to me that more
public folks don't put it together that the EARTH itself could CARE LESS
if the water line consumes cities. It's been ebbing and flowing for
millenia in just such a fashion. The ONLY reason it's such a big deal to
us is because in the last number of centuries (in America)...or millenia
(in many ancient parts of the civilized world)...man has decided we want
to build "permanent" cities, buildings etc. Were we nomadic folk, it
wouldn't make a heck of a lot of difference how many tornadoes,
cyclones/hurricanes, floods, tsunamis, etc. happened. The bulk of the
damage is to our little creations. The earth itself does just fine with
"newly-drawn" coastlines, etc. I don't think natural disasters have any
spiritual element whatsoever. NONE. -Except to the extent that people
tend to react spiritually and reflectively when they occur. Other than
that...what does it matter to the Earth (as it was originally created) if
a big wave comes, or a hurricane digs a trough or two? We build all these
little things that WE decide are SO all important, and then we blame God
when the world carries on as it ALWAYS has. Nothing has changed. We've
just declared our little choices as all important, so we throw a fit at
God when the world continues normally despite our insistence that it bend
to our wishes...and our million dollar beach-side homes.

Further... IDIOT preachers all too often assign all sort of intent to God
as punishment for this and that. I think they're full of it. The God
referred to by/in Jesus indicates a God who is chiefly concerned with the
souls of people, and relationship with them. -NOT how long they
live...how big their house is...or how smoothly everything goes for them.
IF eternity is what matters, then the things we attach value to have
usually been highly over-valued in comparison. This is where we humans
(myself included) are at odds with the interests of the God described and
demonstrated by Jesus.

Again, William. I'm nobody who could claim I've got it figured out. I
have doubts, questions, irritations and annoynaces with the whole concept
too. I just don't dismiss it the way you do. I don't blame you one
little bit, either.

Sure.....I can't hate him, because I don't believe in him.....As far as I've
been able to determine during my short 71 year lifetime, is that this
universe is totally, completely random. There is no intelligence whatsoever
in anything that happens, or has ever happened in the past. It started in
some completely chaotic big bang, and, if it ever comes back together, it
will continue in a series of big bangs extending throughout time in the
future. There is no rhyme or reason behind it, and I really don't see any
need for there to be any rhyme or reason behind it. There is no fundamental
law that says anything has to have a "rhyme and/or reason".
But, by the same token. there is no reason to fabricate some convoluted
story about what is apparently a random event, either. IOW, the Christian
myth makes about as much sense as believing in Santa Claus, or any other
myth......As a matter of fact, it makes a lot less sense than many
myths.......This universe is far too big a place for me to believe that it's
creator came down to Earth some 2000 years ago and mucked around in the
affairs of men for a little while, and then disappeared, never to be seen
again.....:^) (Sorry, but it is impossible for me to even state such a thing
without cracking up.....)

 

[Mark²]

Sure.....I can't hate him, because I don't believe in him.....As far
as I've been able to determine during my short 71 year lifetime, is
that this universe is totally, completely random. There is no
intelligence whatsoever in anything that happens, or has ever
happened in the past. It started in some completely chaotic big bang,
and, if it ever comes back together, it will continue in a series of
big bangs extending throughout time in the future. There is no rhyme
or reason behind it, and I really don't see any need for there to be
any rhyme or reason behind it. There is no fundamental law that says
anything has to have a "rhyme and/or reason". But, by the same
token. there is no reason to fabricate some convoluted story about
what is apparently a random event, either. IOW, the Christian myth
makes about as much sense as believing in Santa Claus, or any other
myth......As a matter of fact, it makes a lot less sense than many
myths.......

This universe is far too big a place for me to believe

that it's creator came down to Earth some 2000 years ago and mucked
around in the affairs of men for a little while, and then
disappeared, never to be seen again.....:^) (Sorry, but it is
impossible for me to even state such a thing without cracking
up.....)

A agree with that last section (which I separated by adding a space).
I don't think that describes, God, though. I think he is, by nature,
creative. I don't think for a second that he is limited to this little
blue, wet ball of matter (Earth). I think he's creating all over the
place... And...I don't think he just popped in...created Earth...and then
popped out.

If there is a God...the most amazing aspect would indeed be just that, as
in: Why would he even give a crap? What would it matter to him if we live
or die like any other bacteria on this or any other planet? I don't know,
other than what I believe about the nature of God's character. It will
always sound ridiculous, because we are nothing in the vast scheme of the
universe.

There's an interesting verse in the Bible that speaks of God and says, "He
remembers that we are dust." That is a direct reflection on a similar
thought to your own. Why would he give a crap about us? -We are, after
all, as insignificant as dust. The answer is what defines the nature of
God. If that remains forever obsurd to you, you are in good company, since
most people don't believe we could ever be anything more than that to any
supreme being. Why would he care? I really don't know other than to say
that it is in his character to care. Can I explain that? Absolutely not.
Does that make me a kook? Perhaps. In your eyes? Surely.
I can live with that. Just remember, William, that there are thinking,
logical people who...sane though they are...can still leave a bit of room
for something which flies in face of logic, human nature, and an otherwise
rock-solid belief in the power and value of science. I'm an example of that
irony. I'm not an idiot. I'm a person who has left a door open to the
absurd concept that they may actually be a deity who gives a crap.

 

[William Graham]

If there is a God...the most amazing aspect would indeed be just that, as

in: Why would he even give a crap? What would it matter to him if we
live or die like any other bacteria on this or any other planet? I don't
know, other than what I believe about the nature of God's character. It
will always sound ridiculous, because we are nothing in the vast scheme of
the universe.

There's an interesting verse in the Bible that speaks of God and says, "He
remembers that we are dust." That is a direct reflection on a similar
thought to your own. Why would he give a crap about us? -We are, after
all, as insignificant as dust. The answer is what defines the nature of
God. If that remains forever obsurd to you, you are in good company,
since most people don't believe we could ever be anything more than that
to any supreme being. Why would he care? I really don't know other than
to say that it is in his character to care. Can I explain that?
Absolutely not. Does that make me a kook? Perhaps. In your eyes?
Surely.
I can live with that. Just remember, William, that there are thinking,
logical people who...sane though they are...can still leave a bit of room
for something which flies in face of logic, human nature, and an otherwise
rock-solid belief in the power and value of science. I'm an example of
that irony. I'm not an idiot. I'm a person who has left a door open to
the absurd concept that they may actually be a deity who gives a crap.

All of which goes straight to the crux of my atheism....If there is a God,
and he has nothing to do with the affairs of men, then what would it matter
whether I believe in him or not? - IOW, the Christian god at least has some
use for the Christians. They believe he is still hovering around doing them
some good from time to time. In my case, I don't believe that......I believe
that any creator of the whole universe would/should have no time for that,
so of what good would it do for me to believe he exists at all? - Absolutely
none, that's what.....And that's another reason why I don't believe....What
would be the use? Why waste my time?
It's sort of like believing that life didn't start here on this earth,
but came from somewhere else, either on a spaceship or a meteor......Who
cares? - What's the difference where it first developed? It doesn't matter
in the least, so why not believe it started here, where it has obviously
flourished? And, we can amuse ourselves trying to recreate it in
environmental chambers in our laboratories.

 

[Bill Funk]

A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more
people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003
than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.

That estimate assumes that the status quo would have remained.
If, OTOH, SH had decided the Kurds were no longer to be tolerated, he
could very well have launched a 'cleansing.'

 

[Cynicor]

That estimate assumes that the status quo would have remained.
If, OTOH, SH had decided the Kurds were no longer to be tolerated, he
could very well have launched a 'cleansing.'

"Could have." He also "could have" launched an attack on Ireland. But he
didn't, and he didn't, and our war has been responsible for over half a
million additional deaths.

 

[Harry Stottle]

"Could have." He also "could have" launched an attack on Ireland. But
he didn't, and he didn't, and our war has been responsible for over
half a million additional deaths.

It seems to me that most of the killing is being done by Saddam Hussein
supporters, and not by British or American troops. The British and
American troops might have upset those who had a comfortable living
before the invasion, but that is not enough reason for those same Saddam
Hussein supporters to slaughter their neighbours because they have now
had their nose put out of joint. Put the blame where it belongs, on
those that are doing the killing, and not on those that went there to
try and prevent it, no matter how misguided this now appears to have
been with the benefit of hindsight.

 

[Cynicor]

It seems to me that most of the killing is being done by Saddam Hussein
supporters, and not by British or American troops.

Er..."most of" the killing? So Shi'ites have done a minority of the
killing? At least it's not being blamed on al-Qaeda.

The British and
American troops might have upset those who had a comfortable living
before the invasion,

"You forgot Poland."

but that is not enough reason for those same Saddam
Hussein supporters to slaughter their neighbours because they have now
had their nose put out of joint.

Put the blame where it belongs, on
those that are doing the killing, and not on those that went there to
try and prevent it, no matter how misguided this now appears to have
been with the benefit of hindsight.

So the reason for the invasion was to try and prevent sectarian violence?

 

[Harry Stottle]

Er..."most of" the killing? So Shi'ites have done a minority of the
killing? At least it's not being blamed on al-Qaeda.


"You forgot Poland."



So the reason for the invasion was to try and prevent sectarian
violence?

If you listen carefully to what Blair said before the invasion, I
believe that the oppression and sectarian violence carried out by Saddam
Hussein and his supporters was part of the reason for him agreeing with
the invasion. He was happy to go along with the 'weapons of mass
destruction' theory because it fitted in with his ideals against that
oppression.

 

[Bill K]

An excellent post!

They forgot one thing - atheists have never started a war, or crashed an
airliner into a building, or did the Spanish inquisition!

Believers all!

Lets hope that this year, not too many depressed believers murder their young
children to send them to a 'better place'...


And to you Alan, happy Saturnalia!

Hmm. . .let's see. The former Soviet Union was an atheist state--the
opium of the masses and all that. China is an atheist state. That
brings to mind, Afghanistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Tibet. . .just
name a few.

 

[Cynicor]

Hmm. . .let's see. The former Soviet Union was an atheist state--the
opium of the masses and all that. China is an atheist state. That
brings to mind, Afghanistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Tibet. . .just
name a few.

The United States has no state religion.