MAJOR PROBLEM WITH TIME ZONES

C

Clint

There is a major problem with the handling of time zones on All Day Events.
The people representing Microsoft claim it be "intuitive." What it is is
costly. Outlooks handling of this has completly ruined my calendar more than
once forcing me to completely delete. I would estimate costing me and my
company thousands of dollars due to missed appointments.

Microsoft Outlook handles time zone changes for all day events incorrectly.
It is time for MS to stop claiming it operates the way it is supposed to and
admit they made a mistake - AND FIX IT!!!!!

It is my understanding that other major calendar applications handle this
correctly. Unless Microsoft can get on board with what their users need, and
not be to proud to admit the current system is wrong... I suggest everyone
find other systems that actually work.

----------------
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http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...ba5c8&dg=microsoft.public.outlook.calendaring
 
C

Clint

It shouldn't matter... this is what Microsoft does not seem to understand.
All day is just that all day. People do not make all day events on their
calendar to represent a 24 hour event, but rather events without specified
times. Anniversaries - Birthdays - Etc. I happen to use all day events alot
because my business requires a number of things be completed on certain days,
but not a specific times.
 
B

Brian Tillman [MVP - Outlook]

Microsoft Outlook handles time zone changes for all day events incorrectly.
It is time for MS to stop claiming it operates the way it is supposed to and
admit they made a mistake - AND FIX IT!!!!!
Click to expand...

What do you consider to be incorrect?
 
B

Brian Tillman [MVP - Outlook]

It shouldn't matter... this is what Microsoft does not seem to understand.
All day is just that all day. People do not make all day events on their
calendar to represent a 24 hour event, but rather events without specified
times. Anniversaries - Birthdays - Etc. I happen to use all day events
alot
because my business requires a number of things be completed on certain
days,
but not a specific times.
Click to expand...

While all day events may not work as you want them to, they do work correctly.
Isn't "all-day" and "24 hours" exactly the same thing? Anywhere you go on the
earth, a day is 24 hours long. If you're in New York at noon on December 24
and call your friend in Canberra, it _is_ appropriate to wish him "Merry
Christmas" because for him, it IS Christmas. His "all-day event" is NOT the
same as yours. All-day events ARE 24 hour time slots, whether you like that
or not.
 
C

Clint

But I am not looking at my friends calendar I am looking at mine. Most
people do not schedule and all day event on the calendar to represent a 24
hour event. They use it to represent an event that occurs or needs to occur
that day but without a set time.

I've read through these boards and you seem to be the only one who think it
works correctly. Is there anyone else out there who thinks it is fine the
way it is. Or do people think Microsoft needs to make a change?
 
C

Clint

Myelf and I think most people use the tasks as a ToDo list. If this were a
paper system - would you write someones birthday on your ToDo list or your
calendar? Wodl you write something that you have to do every other Thursday
on your ToDo list or your calendar?

If I write my friends birthday on my paper calendar. Then I go two time
zones west. I don't rewrite my friend's birthday on the calendar on an
additional day.
 
C

Clint

My papaer calnedar says Christmas is on December 25th. If I am somewhere
else my paper calendar does not suddenly recognize Christmas as the 24th and
25th. It is my understanding from the research I have done that other
electronic calendars treat all day events as "all DAY events" not 24 hour
events. Why can't Microsoft do what makes the system more useful for the
people who own it.
 
D

Diane Poremsky [MVP]

Outlook uses UTC offsets so that appointments work in your time zone - ie,
if someone in PT sends you a (phone or online) meeting request for 9 am,
outlook knows to convert it to the correct time in your time zone. Pinning
some appointments to a specific time is harder to do without introducing
bugs or creating a situation where users make errors when creating meetings
and the 9 am PT meeting ends up at 9 AM ET on some calendars.


--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]



Outlook Tips by email:
mailto:[email protected]

EMO - a weekly newsletter about Outlook and Exchange:
mailto:[email protected]

Let's Really Fix Outlook 2010
http://forums.slipstick.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34
 
B

Brian Tillman [MVP - Outlook]

But I am not looking at my friends calendar I am looking at mine. Most
people do not schedule and all day event on the calendar to represent a 24
hour event. They use it to represent an event that occurs or needs to occur
that day but without a set time.
Click to expand...

Paper calendars have no connection with time zones. Outlook's Calendar,
however, is inextricably linked with time zones. It ALWAYS operates un UTC
internally and then uses the local time zone to present a picture to you.
When you move your PC to a different time zone, you're the one modifying the
24 hour period a day represents. Outlook doesn't do it, you do. Outlook's
behavior is based on real-world calednar behavior, not your sliding time zone
personal assumptions.
 
C

Clint

iI do understand this. In my research I came across the explanation about
UTC offsets. I understand how they work. What I am saying is they shoudl
not be applied to all day events. My actual appointments (with specific
times) work great from time zone to time zone. My point is most people do
not input an all day event in to their calendar meaning it to be an event
that runs from midnight to midnight, but rather an event that either is
defined by the day or does not have to occur at a specific time that day.

My point is that using UTC offsets - or assigning times at all to All Day
events is not ideal, and Microsoft needs to change this. Other calendar
systems understand this. I get the feeling that whoever designed this
(person, team, company) are too proud to admit that it is not correct and
change it.

Yes the arguments that are made to support the current system are true, but
they are not reasonable. The system needs to support the user - not what the
developer thinks is ideal in their mind.

Diane Poremsky said:
Outlook uses UTC offsets so that appointments work in your time zone - ie,
if someone in PT sends you a (phone or online) meeting request for 9 am,
outlook knows to convert it to the correct time in your time zone. Pinning
some appointments to a specific time is harder to do without introducing
bugs or creating a situation where users make errors when creating meetings
and the 9 am PT meeting ends up at 9 AM ET on some calendars.


--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]



Outlook Tips by email:
mailto:[email protected]

EMO - a weekly newsletter about Outlook and Exchange:
mailto:[email protected]

Let's Really Fix Outlook 2010
http://forums.slipstick.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34

Clint said:
My papaer calnedar says Christmas is on December 25th. If I am somewhere
else my paper calendar does not suddenly recognize Christmas as the 24th
and
25th. It is my understanding from the research I have done that other
electronic calendars treat all day events as "all DAY events" not 24 hour
events. Why can't Microsoft do what makes the system more useful for the
people who own it.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
D

Diane Poremsky [MVP]

Microsoft understands it as well, but making it work so some things can be
pinned to a date/time and others linked to UTC is not simple and if they
made every All Day stuck on a date, it would annoy those who want it
floating. And it needs to work without bugs.

--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]



Outlook Tips by email:
mailto:[email protected]

EMO - a weekly newsletter about Outlook and Exchange:
mailto:[email protected]

Let's Really Fix Outlook 2010
http://forums.slipstick.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34

Clint said:
iI do understand this. In my research I came across the explanation about
UTC offsets. I understand how they work. What I am saying is they shoudl
not be applied to all day events. My actual appointments (with specific
times) work great from time zone to time zone. My point is most people do
not input an all day event in to their calendar meaning it to be an event
that runs from midnight to midnight, but rather an event that either is
defined by the day or does not have to occur at a specific time that day.

My point is that using UTC offsets - or assigning times at all to All Day
events is not ideal, and Microsoft needs to change this. Other calendar
systems understand this. I get the feeling that whoever designed this
(person, team, company) are too proud to admit that it is not correct and
change it.

Yes the arguments that are made to support the current system are true,
but
they are not reasonable. The system needs to support the user - not what
the
developer thinks is ideal in their mind.

Diane Poremsky said:
Outlook uses UTC offsets so that appointments work in your time zone -
ie,
if someone in PT sends you a (phone or online) meeting request for 9 am,
outlook knows to convert it to the correct time in your time zone.
Pinning
some appointments to a specific time is harder to do without introducing
bugs or creating a situation where users make errors when creating
meetings
and the 9 am PT meeting ends up at 9 AM ET on some calendars.


--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]



Outlook Tips by email:
mailto:[email protected]

EMO - a weekly newsletter about Outlook and Exchange:
mailto:[email protected]

Let's Really Fix Outlook 2010
http://forums.slipstick.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34

Clint said:
My papaer calnedar says Christmas is on December 25th. If I am
somewhere
else my paper calendar does not suddenly recognize Christmas as the
24th
and
25th. It is my understanding from the research I have done that other
electronic calendars treat all day events as "all DAY events" not 24
hour
events. Why can't Microsoft do what makes the system more useful for
the
people who own it.

:


Microsoft Outlook handles time zone changes for all day events
incorrectly.
It is time for MS to stop claiming it operates the way it is
supposed
to and
admit they made a mistake - AND FIX IT!!!!!

What do you consider to be incorrect?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
B

Ben M. Schorr - MVP

You just said that the issue was that you have things that need to be
completed on a certain day. Things that need to be completed are,
pretty much by definition, "To Do"s.

You don't need to complete your friend's birthday (I assume their mom
did that for them). You might need to send your friend a birthday wish,
but that's a ToDo.

Your paper calendar doesn't suffer the same problem because you have to
do the time zone adjustments in your head - you don't change the time
zone on the calendar. If you're in L.A. and he's in NYC then you just
have to know that even though the paper calendar says his birthday
doesn't start until tomorrow, that at 9PM your time it's officially his
birthday.

You can get the same result from Outlook if you simply don't change the
time zone on your computer when you travel.

And yes, I agree that it's a workaround and I am hopeful that it will be
improved in a future version. Unfortunately it's not a simple fix.

--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
Author - The Lawyer's Guide to Microsoft Outlook 2007:
http://tinyurl.com/5m3f5q
 
D

Dave Warren

In message <[email protected]> "Diane Poremsky
Microsoft understands it as well, but making it work so some things can be
pinned to a date/time and others linked to UTC is not simple and if they
made every All Day stuck on a date, it would annoy those who want it
floating. And it needs to work without bugs.
Click to expand...

The really sad part is that Outlook has had most of this logic within it
for sometime now.

Internally Outlook stores all day appointments with a flag that says
"All day" which is ignored except when importing, instead preferring to
guess that 1440 minutes (or a multiple thereof) means all day.

Both options could be offered simply by making "All day" associate the
event with the correct day (using the start/end date fields only,
ignoring time and timezone associated with such an item) and not
automatically setting "All day" when an event happens to be a multiple
of 1440 minutes.

This would allow for timezone independent events like holidays,
birthdays, etc while still allowing 1440 minute appointments to exist.

Worst of all, this has been an issue for over a decade, yields thousands
of complaints, but has had no action taken at all.
 
D

Dave Warren

In message <[email protected]> "Ben M. Schorr - MVP"
You just said that the issue was that you have things that need to be
completed on a certain day. Things that need to be completed are,
pretty much by definition, "To Do"s.

You don't need to complete your friend's birthday (I assume their mom
did that for them). You might need to send your friend a birthday wish,
but that's a ToDo.

Your paper calendar doesn't suffer the same problem because you have to
do the time zone adjustments in your head - you don't change the time
zone on the calendar. If you're in L.A. and he's in NYC then you just
have to know that even though the paper calendar says his birthday
doesn't start until tomorrow, that at 9PM your time it's officially his
birthday.

You can get the same result from Outlook if you simply don't change the
time zone on your computer when you travel.
Click to expand...

Of course if you do this, then you have to mentally adjust the current
time every time you glance at your computer's clock, or when figuring
out how long ago a message was received, or various other similar
time-dependant cases.
 
B

Ben M. Schorr - MVP

Of course if you do this, then you have to mentally adjust the current
time every time you glance at your computer's clock, or when figuring
out how long ago a message was received, or various other similar
time-dependant cases.
Click to expand...

Change your computer clock to current time without changing your time
zone. Your appointments will be unchanged and your computer clock will
be correct for your current location.

Yes, I know it's a workaround and not an idea solution.

-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
Author - The Lawyer's Guide to Microsoft Outlook 2007:
http://tinyurl.com/5m3f5q
 
D

Dave Warren

In message <[email protected]> "Ben M. Schorr - MVP"
Change your computer clock to current time without changing your time
zone. Your appointments will be unchanged and your computer clock will
be correct for your current location.

Yes, I know it's a workaround and not an idea solution.
Click to expand...

This is true, but it breaks all sorts of other things, including
Kerberos, which tends to be time sensitive.

It also becomes obvious to others when you send/receive email and post
on usenet, since you'll either be posting from the future, or sending
responses before the original message was sent.

Lastly, your computer will probably try to fix the clock anyway.
 
A

AB

Clint,

I think you are NOT THE ONLY ONE having this problem. It is irritating to
see my events/holidays/birthdays across two days because I do not have "one"
place of residence.

My time zones are between North America, Australia and various cities across
Europe.

I agree with other people who have posted that there should be a way for
Outlook to KEEP the set dates and times as they are set originally regardless
of time zones...

Someone from Outlook please help with this issue.
 

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