Mac hick needs to build PC, looking for help

[Barton Brown]

Allow me to preface my question with the admission that I'm a total
Mac-head, and have been since 1989. My previous life was as a graphic
designer and Mac IT, networking, and pagination specialist.

My new life is as a hobby shop owner (all part of Life's Rich Pageant™),
and business needs oblige me to get a Windows machine -- not at all a
bad thing, as now I'll finally be able to play "Grand Prix Legends" -- I
hope.

I've actually built Windows PCs for other people (in a previous-previous
life I was a NASA-certified solderer and electronics assembler), but
that was long ago. However, I LIKE building electronics, and for several
years, gripping my unplayed copy of "Grand Prix Legends," I've checked
out Sharky's "Value Gaming System" guides with visions of Athlons and
A-Bits dancing in my head.

Now, however, I really DO need to get a PC, to run a POS system with
integrated cash drawer, credit card verification system, and bar code
wand. I've done it on the Mac, but the choices for Mac POS software are
about TWO, and the one I've used only runs on OS 9.x.x.

Well, purely on impulse, I bought a Soyo barebones kit from TigerDirect
-- box, 350W (labeled "AMD Approved") PS, 52x CD, kb, mouse, speakers,
and a Soyo K7VME mobo, all for $19.95 after rebates. Of course, the
gearhead elitist faction on rec.autos.simulators immediately told me
what a crap motherboard this was, and that if I didn't get an NF7-S with
an overclockable XP2400+ mobile Barton I would die of shame the first
time I tried to run Super Mario Brothers.

I understand that the K7VME isn't the absolute latest and greatest, but
both AnandTech and Tom's Hardware had very nice things to say about it.
What I most *don't* understand (and this is purely my own ignorance) is
why GPL, a sim written what -- five years ago? -- optimized for the
bog-slow CPUs of its day and Rendition graphics
cards that have been a hundred times obsoleted, today requires some
blown nitro, injected, water-intercooled Blast-O-Megaherz frankenstein
processor and a mobo with something like 5 times the FSB speed of
1999-2000 boxes. Now, I know that the unbelievably talented sim
community has crafted an incredible array of GPL add-ons, tracks,
background graphics, ad infinitum, but isn't this, at its core, the same
game released in 1998?

Well, anyway, the K7VME and a box is what I have, and while I'm sure
I'll update the mobo and many other things not too far down the road,
right now I need to populate the old obsolescent crock with a Socket A
CPU, HD (just saw a Western Digital SE 200GB/7200RPM/8MB at Tiger for
$89.99 -- a good buy, or not?), DDR RAM, DVD-R, and some sort of AGP
video card (the Soyo has a 4x/8x AGP slot), probaly of the NVidia
GeForce variety, as that seems to be what works best with GPL these days.

Any constructive suggestions would be greatly appreciated (except any
anti-Mac drivel, please -- I've been using a Mac since 1991 and I loathe
Windows, so I just gotta hold my nose and go with the mainstream flow on
this one). I can be reached at:
(e-mail address removed)
or
(e-mail address removed)

Thanks!

Bart Brown

 

[Dave C.]

(snip)

Well, anyway, the K7VME and a box is what I have, and while I'm sure
I'll update the mobo and many other things not too far down the road,
right now I need to populate the old obsolescent crock with a Socket A
CPU, HD (just saw a Western Digital SE 200GB/7200RPM/8MB at Tiger for
$89.99 -- a good buy, or not?), DDR RAM, DVD-R, and some sort of AGP
video card (the Soyo has a 4x/8x AGP slot), probaly of the NVidia
GeForce variety, as that seems to be what works best with GPL these days.

Any constructive suggestions would be greatly appreciated (except any
anti-Mac drivel, please -- I've been using a Mac since 1991 and I loathe
Windows, so I just gotta hold my nose and go with the mainstream flow on
this one). I can be reached at:
(e-mail address removed)
or
(e-mail address removed)

Thanks!

Bart Brown

Actually, that mainboard doesn't look too bad. It will actually make a
decent lower mid-range gamer if you are careful about the other components
you choose. You don't have a lot of extra power in that power supply
though, so stick with mainboard, ram, processor, video card, ONE hard drive
and ONE DVD drive for now. (as well as any accessories you need for the POS
stuff)

The hard drive you chose looks like a steal! Grab it before they change
their minds. Just verify that it is IDE format first, as you really
don't have room to add a SATA controller.

For the CPU, try a XP2800+ or XP3000+, but make sure that either one is a
*333*FSB version, to match the mainboard's capabilities. For RAM, you
should get KINGSTON brand (recommended by Soyo) DDR400 512MB, one stick.
For a video card, try a FX5700. (period) Don't go FX5700LE or FX5700 Ultra
(too expensive). FX5700 should be just right for this project. Perhaps a
Chaintech SA5700 for about $130? For a DVD burner, be aware that dual layer
(as opposed to just dual FORMAT) burners are available now for less than a
hundred bucks including software. So don't get an older (and no cheaper)
single layer burner, unless it can be converted to dual layer via a firmware
update. For sound, I think you'd better use the onboard audio of the
mainboard. While this won't be the best solution for gaming, you are
limited by two PCI expansion slots, so save those for more important uses.
IMHO -Dave

 

[Barton Brown]

(snip)
The hard drive you chose looks like a steal! Grab it before they change
their minds. Just verify that it is IDE format first, as you really
don't have room to add a SATA controller.

Here's what the blurb on the drive says: "Western Digital Caviar SE
200GB / 7200 / 8MB / ATA-100 EIDE Hard Drive." I'm assuming --
correctly, I hope -- that EIDE is the same as IDE (only better). That
should show you how much I know about PC hardware!

For the CPU, try a XP2800+ or XP3000+, but make sure that either one is a
*333*FSB version, to match the mainboard's capabilities. For RAM, you
should get KINGSTON brand (recommended by Soyo) DDR400 512MB, one stick.
For a video card, try a FX5700. (period)

Here's what I'm looking at for video:

GAINWARD nVIDIA GeForce FX5700, 256MB DDR $132 at NewEgg
Chaintech GeForce FX 5700 / 256MB DDR $125 (after $30 rebate) at TigerDirect

Thanks for the info on the DVD burner and the Kingston memory (and all
the other info, of course!) I'll probably go with an XP3000+ (333FSB).

One thing that I can't quite figure out: the barebones blurb at
TigerDirect said the Soyo K7VME had provision for FireWire (which I need
for data transfer between my G4 PowerBook and the PC), but I can't find
any mention of FireWire in any of the K7VME's documentation, or on
Soyo's site. The board has USB up the kazoo, but I do a lot of graphics
work which I'll be transferring back and forth between boxes -- not the
sort of thing even USB2 is great at. I'd hate to have to give up one of
only two PCI slots just for a FireWire card. Any thoughts?

Thanks again -- this was just the sort of solid info I needed. BTW, the
TigerDirect deal on the 200 gig Caviar is good until 7/31.

Bart Brown

 

[Barton Brown]

Another question, if I may: though the price difference between an
XP3000+ and an XP2800+ (both 333FSB) is only about $30 or so, looking at
the specs, it seems the only technical difference between the two is
..08GHz. Am I missing something here?

XP 3000+ / 2.16GHz
XP 2800+ / 2.08GHz

Also, what's the best cooling solution (short of water-cooled) for this
chip?

Thanks again

Bart Brown

 

[Stephen Austin]

(snip)

For the CPU, try a XP2800+ or XP3000+, but make sure that either one is a
*333*FSB version, to match the mainboard's capabilities. For RAM, you
should get KINGSTON brand (recommended by Soyo) DDR400 512MB, one stick.

Having emphasised that he should get 333FSB (ie. 166MHz FSB) Processer,
why do you then suggest DDR400 which runs at 200MHz?

 

[Matt]

There is a recent thread on that mobo in the soyo mainboard group. I
started it when I was thinking about buying that combo.

Also, what's the best cooling solution (short of water-cooled) for this
chip?

Tigerdirect had a HSF for that case/mobo combo. You should have ordered
it when you ordered the combo to save shipping. You can't use the stock
AMD cooler because it's too tall, I believe. Do some measuring and look
at the specs for the fans at newegg.

I expect that the combo was cheap because people have had some problems
with it, so probably you have chosen a somewhat difficult first PC project.

By the way, you might want to look into Linux/POS solutions, but I have
to say that I don't know whether there are any. For Linux generally, I
would recommend Fedora or SuSE or maybe Mandrake distributions.

 

[Peter]

I understand that the K7VME isn't the absolute latest and greatest, but
both AnandTech and Tom's Hardware had very nice things to say about it.
What I most *don't* understand (and this is purely my own ignorance) is
why GPL, a sim written what -- five years ago? -- optimized for the
bog-slow CPUs of its day and Rendition graphics
cards that have been a hundred times obsoleted, today requires some
blown nitro, injected, water-intercooled Blast-O-Megaherz frankenstein
processor and a mobo with something like 5 times the FSB speed of
1999-2000 boxes. Now, I know that the unbelievably talented sim
community has crafted an incredible array of GPL add-ons, tracks,
background graphics, ad infinitum, but isn't this, at its core, the same
game released in 1998?

I wouldn't worry too much about r.a.s. and their comments, though they
are normally quite helpful there. I've been playing GPL for donkey's
years, and started out on an old amd k6-2 300, with many settings cut
down or disabled.

Just get what you're happy with for now. I'm sure it will run GPL just
fine. Be aware of 2 things, though. You will need to get hold of the
cpu fix for GPL if you go above 1.4GHz processors otherwise the timings
are out, and secondly, don't try to run things at too high settings at
first. GPL is playable at best when its framerate is up near its 36 fps
maximum. You can always gradually up your settings and retest things to
check the framerate as you go.

I currently running GPL at 1024x768 on:

XP 1800+
392Mb PC2100 RAM
Radeon 9200 graphics
Bog standard 5 channel sound card.

 

[Barton Brown]

Thanks, Peter -- you give me hope!

Bart Brown

Peter wrote:

 

[Peter]

Thanks, Peter -- you give me hope!

Bart Brown

No problem, Bart. One more thing, I don't recall the O/S you were
planning on using. If it's XP there's an issue with GPL that requires
indexing on the GPL folder to be enabled. Can't recall exact workings,
but a quick Google should give you the answer if you are using XP.

 

[Mac Cool]

some sort of AGP video card ...

RADEON 9800 PRO 128MB $169
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/3628345
Heck of a good deal

http://www.powerleap.com/VideoCards.html
Even better if it's for real

 

[Dave C.]

(snip)



Having emphasised that he should get 333FSB (ie. 166MHz FSB) Processer,
why do you then suggest DDR400 which runs at 200MHz?

Because it's likely he will want to upgrade this rig soon, and DDR400 (at
333) will work fine for his current needs, and likely work fine for his next
system, also. For virtually the same price, it wouldn't make sense to buy
DDR333 RAM. -Dave

 

[Dave C.]

Here's what the blurb on the drive says: "Western Digital Caviar SE
200GB / 7200 / 8MB / ATA-100 EIDE Hard Drive." I'm assuming --
correctly, I hope -- that EIDE is the same as IDE (only better). That
should show you how much I know about PC hardware!


Here's what I'm looking at for video:

GAINWARD nVIDIA GeForce FX5700, 256MB DDR $132 at NewEgg
Chaintech GeForce FX 5700 / 256MB DDR $125 (after $30 rebate) at TigerDirect

Thanks for the info on the DVD burner and the Kingston memory (and all
the other info, of course!) I'll probably go with an XP3000+ (333FSB).

One thing that I can't quite figure out: the barebones blurb at
TigerDirect said the Soyo K7VME had provision for FireWire (which I need
for data transfer between my G4 PowerBook and the PC), but I can't find
any mention of FireWire in any of the K7VME's documentation, or on
Soyo's site.

Geez, buy that hard drive QUICK. You are right, it is IDE. Great deal,
too! The Gainward brand FX5700 video card looks like a great deal, also. I
just built a gaming system with a Chaintech FX5900XT, and it's awesome. But
Gainward has a great rep. for video cards, so the $132 normal price (no
rebate) looks like a great deal.

You're right. I can't find firewire on that board. Sometimes it's called
IEEE1394, but I don't see that, either. Looks like you will have to switch
mainboards or lose a PCI slot to a firewire card. -Dave

 

[Stephen Austin]

Because it's likely he will want to upgrade this rig soon, and DDR400 (at
333) will work fine for his current needs, and likely work fine for his
next
system, also. For virtually the same price, it wouldn't make sense to
buy
DDR333 RAM. -Dave

Heh, yeah, fair 'nuf lol. Guess I should think these things through more
carefully before replying lol

 

[Barton Brown]

Well, being an impulsive sort, I kinda jumped in with both feet. Here's
what I got, based on the recommendations here and my own impulsive nature:

The barebones Soyo with the K7VME, as already noted.

Western Digital Caviar SE 200GB/7200rpm/8MB/ATA-100 EIDE

AMD Athlon XP2800+/512K Cache/333MHz FSB

Thermaltake TR2 M2 (recommended for the Soyo case because it provides an
extra 10mm between the CPU fan and power supply)

Ultra 512MB PC2700 DDR 333MHz Memory x2

Megastor (NEC) Dual Layer DVD Burner combo drive

Chaintech GeForce FX 5700/256MB DDR/AGP

I'll live with the onboard sound for now, and I guess the K7VME may seem
to be the weakest link in this mid-range (I guess) chain, but I'm
hoping it will be entirely adequate to my needs. If not, I'll find one
that is -- meanwhile, I have a fairly decent complement of componentry.

I got everything from TigerDirect, both to save on shipping and to take
advantage of every rebate I possibly could -- I'm an inveterate
cheapskate, but I don't buy junk if I can avoid it. Rebates totalled
around $350-$400, and I compared prices and specs on everything ...
yeah, I'm anal-retentive, too.

BTW, AMD has several .wmv videos of installing and removing processors,
heatsinks, etc. -- pretty handy. I've also DL'd a BUNCH of "baby's first
pc build" articles and vids, but I'm sure I'll be back here crying over
something before long.

Another BTW, specifically for David, and for anyone else interested in a
wheel and pedal set: I don't know anything about the reputation of these
people

http://www.isellsurplus.com/product.asp?P=IN&id=4371

but they have a refurb ThrustMaster Nascar Charger2 Steering
Wheel/Pedals combo for $19.99. This is the "Pro Digital" (later)
version, with both paddle and stick shifters, and the better, more
stable pedal platform. Sells around the net for $25 (refurb) to $50
(new). Here are some quick specs:

- Four (4) wheel-mounted programmable buttons
- Two (2) steering paddle shifters
- 15-pin standard game/midi port connector
- DirectX 7.0 compatible

Regarding Windows OS in general, and an OS with "Grand Prix Legends" in
mind in particular, what should I go with? I've heard horror stories
about XP, and my brief experiences with Windows has shown that, just
like Mac OS releases, when they first come out, they're buggy as hell.
The POS software I'll be using will most likely have been written for
Win98 at best. The hardware I'll be supporting consists of a cash drawer
and a barcode wand, both USB.

Peter, David, Matt, MacCool -- my heartfelt thanks for all the info and
encouragement -- I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards

Bart Brown

 

[Dave C.]

(snip)

- Four (4) wheel-mounted programmable buttons
- Two (2) steering paddle shifters
- 15-pin standard game/midi port connector
- DirectX 7.0 compatible

Regarding Windows OS in general, and an OS with "Grand Prix Legends" in
mind in particular, what should I go with? I've heard horror stories
about XP, and my brief experiences with Windows has shown that, just
like Mac OS releases, when they first come out, they're buggy as hell.
The POS software I'll be using will most likely have been written for
Win98 at best. The hardware I'll be supporting consists of a cash drawer
and a barcode wand, both USB.

Peter, David, Matt, MacCool -- my heartfelt thanks for all the info and
encouragement -- I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards

Bart Brown

Windows XP has been out for quite a while, and is VERY stable. If you are
used to a MAC, then (Windowx XP with sp1a and all updates) is probably the
only OS by Microsoft that will NOT have you banging your head on your desk
in frustration. HOWEVER, earlier versions of Windows can be pretty stable
also, if the hardware and drivers are all up to date and compatible with the
OS. If you want USB, then your best choices would be Windows ME or Windows
XP.

I'd STRONGLY recommend Windows XP. Only, order it NOW, as the OS will cost
about half as much if you order the OEM version WITH HARDWARE. In other
words, add it to the order for all your other stuff. This should cost less
than a hundred bucks for the full (not upgrade) OEM version of Windows XP
Home with SP1a. -Dave

 

[Mac Cool]

I've heard horror stories
about XP, and my brief experiences with Windows has shown that, just
like Mac OS releases, when they first come out, they're buggy as
hell. The POS software I'll be using will most likely have been
written for Win98 at best. The hardware I'll be supporting consists
of a cash drawer and a barcode wand, both USB.

I recommend against using any Windows 3.x or 9x OS (including ME) unless
you need it for gaming. Those versions of Windows had a memory leak that
required rebooting the computer frequently to recover memory and prevent
crashing. NT, 2000 & XP are far more stable and troublefree.

It's true that XP requires security updates and bug fixes, but that is not
unique to XP. Occasionally running Windows Update to install necessary
patches, use a firewall and antivirus will negate 99.9% of the problems
you might encounter. For additional safety you can use a different browser
and email application, disable Java & ActiveX and just use common sense,
that should cover the other .1% of problems.

I have used all flavors of OS/2, Windows, Linux, & Mac operating systems
and I strongly prefer XP over any others.

 

[Peter]

Regarding Windows OS in general, and an OS with "Grand Prix Legends" in
mind in particular, what should I go with? I've heard horror stories
about XP, and my brief experiences with Windows has shown that, just
like Mac OS releases, when they first come out, they're buggy as hell.
The POS software I'll be using will most likely have been written for
Win98 at best. The hardware I'll be supporting consists of a cash
drawer'

As others have said here, XP is a good choice, even with Grand Prix
Legends. It works fine with it. You need to turn indexing on for the
GPL folder to get it to work correctly though. Plenty of info about
this if you do a search at Google>>Groups