Linux. It's safer because it's a pain in the rear.

Discussion in 'DIY PC' started by John Doe, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    But seriously.

    I've been doing Windows for ages. Never had a real problem to do
    with security. Apparently Linux developers don't really care about
    unpopular Linux is. Otherwise they would provide an option for the
    ordinary user to get around all of the permissions garbage that is
    set up by default in Linux.






    --
    This is not an invitation for a Linux Lunatic to talk about how
    his computer must be safe.
     
    John Doe, Jun 26, 2012
    #1
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  2. On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, John Doe wrote:

    > But seriously.
    >
    > I've been doing Windows for ages. Never had a real problem to do
    > with security. Apparently Linux developers don't really care about
    > unpopular Linux is. Otherwise they would provide an option for the
    > ordinary user to get around all of the permissions garbage that is
    > set up by default in Linux.
    >

    All you have to do is learn how to use it properly. Too many people spend
    endless time trying to "fix" Linux by messing with permission and all
    that.

    Michael
     
    Michael Black, Jun 26, 2012
    #2
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  3. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    Michael Black <et472 ncf.ca> wrote:

    > John Doe wrote:
    >
    >> But seriously.
    >>
    >> I've been doing Windows for ages. Never had a real problem to
    >> do with security. Apparently Linux developers don't really care
    >> about unpopular Linux is. Otherwise they would provide an
    >> option for the ordinary user to get around all of the
    >> permissions garbage that is set up by default in Linux.
    >>

    > All you have to do is learn how to use it properly.


    As usual, that's vague. That happens a lot when you ask for help.
    If you get any answer at all, people often provide a vague answer,
    or they provide an answer that appears to have been translated by
    Babel Fish. Or the answer is incomplete.

    > Too many people spend endless time trying to "fix" Linux by
    > messing with permission and all that.


    I'm not trying to fix it, I'm trying to use it. People who
    actually do something with their computers need ready access
    simple functions like copy, cut, and paste.

    First, I try to download a 7z themes file. That fails. So I
    install 7-zip. Then, the file downloads. But it doesn't extract
    properly. Somehow, it properly extracted once. Anyway, there is
    also the problem of file permissions. You can somehow do that from
    a command line. You can also open a file manager from the command
    line using "root" permissions. But that file manager is only
    partly functional, it doesn't use your preferences. At that point,
    I'm still stuck trying to extract and copy the 7z file from the
    download utility to the themes folder. I've done some research,
    but so far found answers that are incomplete and/or incorrect.
    One of the problems with trying to research a problem appears
    to be that there is so many different versions of Linux.

    --






    >
    > Michael
    >
     
    John Doe, Jun 27, 2012
    #3
  4. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    John Doe, Jun 27, 2012
    #4
  5. On 06/26/2012 05:12 PM, John Doe wrote:
    > But seriously.
    >
    > I've been doing Windows for ages. Never had a real problem to do
    > with security. Apparently Linux developers don't really care about
    > unpopular Linux is. Otherwise they would provide an option for the
    > ordinary user to get around all of the permissions garbage that is
    > set up by default in Linux.
    >

    Linux does things differently.
    perhaps you should just stick with windows...
    --
    This group is too complicated for bears. -G Morgan
    The internet will become the sacred sanctuary for nutters,idiots and
    trolls -Michel Nostradamus 1566
    Registered Linux User #393236
     
    What's in a Name?, Jun 27, 2012
    #5
  6. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    What's in a Name? <invalid invalid.net> wrote:

    > John Doe wrote:


    >> But seriously.
    >>
    >> I've been doing Windows for ages. Never had a real problem to
    >> do with security. Apparently Linux developers don't really care
    >> about unpopular Linux is. Otherwise they would provide an
    >> option for the ordinary user to get around all of the
    >> permissions garbage that is set up by default in Linux.
    >>

    > Linux does things differently.


    Obviously some things it does worse. The lack of voice-activated
    macroing/scripting is a prime example.

    > perhaps you should just stick with windows...


    Hello there nym-shifting troll.

    --







    > --
    > This group is too complicated for bears. -G Morgan
    > The internet will become the sacred sanctuary for nutters,idiots and
    > trolls -Michel Nostradamus 1566
    > Registered Linux User #393236
    >
    >
    >
    >

    noarchive and/or nymshifting
    > Path: eternal-september.org!mx04.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
    > From: What's in a Name? <invalid invalid.net>
    > Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
    > Subject: Re: Linux. It's safer because it's a pain in the rear.
    > Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 22:22:03 -0400
    > Organization: The Dark Net
    > Lines: 18
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    >
     
    John Doe, Jun 27, 2012
    #6
  7. On 06/26/2012 10:26 PM, John Doe wrote:
    > What's in a Name? <invalid invalid.net> wrote:
    >
    >> John Doe wrote:

    >
    >>> But seriously.
    >>>
    >>> I've been doing Windows for ages. Never had a real problem to
    >>> do with security. Apparently Linux developers don't really care
    >>> about unpopular Linux is. Otherwise they would provide an
    >>> option for the ordinary user to get around all of the
    >>> permissions garbage that is set up by default in Linux.
    >>>

    >> Linux does things differently.

    >
    > Obviously some things it does worse. The lack of voice-activated
    > macroing/scripting is a prime example.
    >
    >> perhaps you should just stick with windows...

    >
    > Hello there nym-shifting troll.
    >

    that would be Mr to you

    --
    This group is too complicated for bears. -G Morgan
    The internet will become the sacred sanctuary for nutters,idiots and
    trolls -Michel Nostradamus 1566
    Registered Linux User #393236
     
    What's in a Name?, Jun 27, 2012
    #7
  8. On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, Rick wrote:

    > On 6/26/2012 4:12 PM, John Doe wrote:
    >> But seriously.
    >>
    >> I've been doing Windows for ages. Never had a real problem to do
    >> with security. Apparently Linux developers don't really care about
    >> unpopular Linux is. Otherwise they would provide an option for the
    >> ordinary user to get around all of the permissions garbage that is
    >> set up by default in Linux.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > I just takes a little more time and it is completely different from MS OS so
    > it just requires a little reading. I have not had too much of a problem
    > using it
    >
    >

    But you get that. People complaining in the Linux newsgroups, "I want to
    run as root because it's simpler, but such and such a program won't let me
    run it as root" and it's seen as a complication rather than a clue that
    one should run as a user. Most of the time, the reason they want to run
    as root is because they are doing something wrong, like not putting
    themselves in the right groups, so they think root will fix things. But
    then they often have to do work to run everything as root anyway.

    It probably is a conceptual shift that needs to be done, rather than "it's
    too hard".

    Michael
     
    Michael Black, Jun 27, 2012
    #8
  9. John Doe

    Paul Guest

    John Doe wrote:
    > Here's an example of the lack of help you get when asking
    > about problems that might have to do with permissions...
    >
    > http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1847573.html


    You do realize, they write books on this stuff.

    Back in the day, when we were plunked in front of a Unix
    box, they didn't allow us to ask questions at first. They
    gave a pile of books. You read the books first, to get
    the basics. As that stopped you from asking too many
    "noob" questions. At that time, our SunOs computers
    also came with their own excellent manuals, and I learned a
    lot from those. Sun documentation gradually went downhill
    after that.

    If this was a Linux group, we could ask how many people have
    seen this.

    http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/713SA4D3ACL._SS500_.gif

    OReilly has a ton of books on specialized topics like that.
    Find a computer book store, and see what they've got. You
    gotta flip through the books, to eliminate the fluffy ones.

    http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Shell...8&qid=1340770165&sr=1-1&keywords=bourne+shell

    *******

    So you won't go away unhappy, this will give you a primer
    on permissions. Like lots of Wikipedia articles, it's not
    focused enough on effective learning. Sections there could
    just be snipped out. But you might get enough out of it
    for your purposes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_permissions

    *******

    On Sun systems, we used to load AnswerBook on the machines.
    Sun at one time, also offered these online, web based.
    Gradually, over the years, Sun got more and more grumpy,
    cutting off web access. And that's why I offer you this
    web.archive.org page, as a substitute. This will give
    you some "free" lessons, if you can stand navigation via
    archive.org . A small section on permissions is near the bottom
    of this particular page.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20080531224512/http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/801-6615/6i0vsc1up?a=view

    It looks like they also managed to archive the PDF versions.
    When we got this from Sun, it usually came on a CD. Now, this
    is "real" documentation. Dry as paper dust, boring as hell,
    but it is documentation. A project I worked on, made documentation
    like this too. Two feet thick... so you could sit on it.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20090521035923/http://dlc.sun.com/pdf/801-6614/801-6614.pdf

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jun 27, 2012
    #9
  10. John Doe

    Nil Guest

    On 26 Jun 2012, John Doe <> wrote in
    alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt:

    > As usual, that's vague. That happens a lot when you ask for help.


    You didn't ask for help.

    > If you get any answer at all, people often provide a vague answer,


    Try asking a non-vague question. Maybe you'll get a non-vague answer.
     
    Nil, Jun 27, 2012
    #10
  11. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    Nil <rednoise REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote:

    > John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> wrote
    >
    >> As usual, that's vague. That happens a lot when you ask for
    >> help.

    >
    > You didn't ask for help.


    That's right, Nildo.

    >> If you get any answer at all, people often provide a vague
    >> answer,

    >
    > Try asking a non-vague question. Maybe you'll get a non-vague
    > answer.


    I provided an example of that, Nildo.

    --














    > Path: eternal-september.org!mx04.eternal-september.org!

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    > From: Nil <rednoise REMOVETHIScomcast.net>
    > Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
    > Subject: Re: Linux. It's safer because it's a pain in the rear.
    > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:50:00 -0400
    > Organization: (?!)
    > Lines: 11
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    homebuilt:23152
    >
     
    John Doe, Jun 27, 2012
    #11
  12. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    Paul <nospam needed.com> wrote:

    > John Doe wrote:


    >> Here's an example of the lack of help you get when asking
    >> about problems that might have to do with permissions...
    >>
    >> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1847573.html

    >
    > You do realize, they write books on this stuff.


    Books?

    > Back in the day, when we were plunked in front of a Unix
    > box, they didn't allow us to ask questions at first. They
    > gave a pile of books. You read the books first, to get
    > the basics. As that stopped you from asking too many
    > "noob" questions.


    Long ago, in a land far far away...

    Things have changed. Have you noticed YouTube? It is a
    unfathomably vast resource for learning about all sorts of
    subjects. Not perfect, but even better than the massive textbased
    communications on the Internet. I guess it's kind of funny,
    thinking about how elementary picture books were. Now a picture
    oriented media (YouTube) makes books look like stone tablets.

    --










    > Paul
    >
     
    John Doe, Jun 27, 2012
    #12
  13. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    Michael Black <> wrote:

    > Rick wrote:
    >> John Doe wrote:


    >>> But seriously.
    >>>
    >>> I've been doing Windows for ages. Never had a real problem to
    >>> do with security. Apparently Linux developers don't really
    >>> care about unpopular Linux is. Otherwise they would provide an
    >>> option for the ordinary user to get around all of the
    >>> permissions garbage that is set up by default in Linux.

    >>
    >> I just takes a little more time and it is completely different
    >> from MS OS so it just requires a little reading. I have not
    >> had too much of a problem using it
    >>

    >
    > But you get that. People complaining in the Linux newsgroups,
    > "I want to run as root because it's simpler, but such and such a
    > program won't let me run it as root" and it's seen as a
    > complication rather than a clue that one should run as a user.
    > Most of the time, the reason they want to run as root is because
    > they are doing something wrong, like not putting themselves in
    > the right groups, so they think root will fix things. But then
    > they often have to do work to run everything as root anyway.
    >
    > It probably is a conceptual shift that needs to be done, rather
    > than "it's too hard".


    It's not too hard, it's annoying. All of the file permissions
    garbage is just further proof that Linux is a server operating
    system, not meant for end users. The file permissions are
    unnecessary and cumbersome for a casual/ordinary personal computer
    user. No doubt the programmers know better, but there are still
    some Linux Lunatics running around touting the next as a
    mainstream operating system. Real programmers probably don't care,
    their money comes from businesses. They know they're not competing
    against Microsoft in the personal computer market.













    >
    > Michael
    >
    >
     
    John Doe, Jun 27, 2012
    #13
  14. John Doe

    Paul Guest

    John Doe wrote:

    >
    > It's not too hard, it's annoying. All of the file permissions
    > garbage is just further proof that Linux is a server operating
    > system, not meant for end users. The file permissions are
    > unnecessary and cumbersome for a casual/ordinary personal computer
    > user. No doubt the programmers know better, but there are still
    > some Linux Lunatics running around touting the next as a
    > mainstream operating system. Real programmers probably don't care,
    > their money comes from businesses. They know they're not competing
    > against Microsoft in the personal computer market.


    You're forgetting the origins of these machines.

    At one time, for end users, you would have *one* Unix box,
    32 serial ports, and individual *text* terminals would
    allow login. It was a timeshared system, allowing a large
    number of users to share an expensive resource. To
    "partition" the users from one another, the permission
    bits ensured ordinary users, didn't start reading roots
    email box.

    The fact only one user logs into a Linux box now, is an
    aberration. The infrastructure is there, to support
    multiple users at the same time.

    You can even run multiple graphical sessions, using
    remote X terminals. We used that technology at one
    time too. At work, some of the software developers would
    use "thin clients", and share a box with another developer.
    They also had software at work, for load balancing. You
    could open your email in the morning, and the email task
    would be running on a computer down the hall. This occasionally
    led to complaints, when a "pig process" from one user, made
    the machine down the hall run sluggish for that user.

    In fact, I used that capability at home. Using an encrypted
    VPN, I used to remote into my Unix box, and do CAD design.
    It was slow, but the screen looked just like my screen at work.

    So these environments have been supporting multiple users,
    in a flexible fashion for a long time. The fact your Linux
    box only has you sitting in front of it, and not a pile of
    squids sharing it, is a lucky break for you. But those
    permission bits aren't going away any time soon. This
    is not Windows 98.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jun 27, 2012
    #14
  15. John Doe

    KR Guest

    Unfort

    On Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:23:00 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:
    > Here's an example of the lack of help you get when asking
    > about problems that might have to do with permissions...
    >
    > http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1847573.html



    Unfortunately that sort of outcome is common on a lot of forums on
    all sorts of subjects :(
     
    KR, Jun 28, 2012
    #15
  16. John Doe

    David Guest

    On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:11:57 -0400, Paul wrote:

    >
    > This is not Windows 98.
    >


    Thank God.

    (microshit free for over a decade)
     
    David, Jun 28, 2012
    #16
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