line conditioner

[John Doe]

Yesterday it got cold, rainy, and windy in the late evening. For the
first time since buying a line conditioner six months ago, it was
actively protecting my computer power supply. I could hear the relay
clicking on and off every few minutes or so. That's fun, I enjoy
monitoring systems and that's another such tool. All it has is the
relay(s) and LEDs that indicate over/under voltage, but that's
better than no sign at all.

My computer hasn't spontaneously restarted since buying the thing,
I'm pretty sure it is the reason. I might need better house current,
but without the line conditioner I would not have known. If you
don't need battery backup and you want better line filtering, seems
to me like it's the way to go (especially if your house current
might not be the best).

Mine is an APC LE1200 (probably much more than enough for a gaming
machine). I have no idea how it compares to other line
conditioners, I'm sure there's better.

Any other actual experiences, bad or good, with a line conditioner?

Have fun.

 

[philo]

Yesterday it got cold, rainy, and windy in the late evening. For the
first time since buying a line conditioner six months ago, it was
actively protecting my computer power supply. I could hear the relay
clicking on and off every few minutes or so. That's fun, I enjoy
monitoring systems and that's another such tool. All it has is the
relay(s) and LEDs that indicate over/under voltage, but that's
better than no sign at all.

My computer hasn't spontaneously restarted since buying the thing,
I'm pretty sure it is the reason. I might need better house current,
but without the line conditioner I would not have known. If you
don't need battery backup and you want better line filtering, seems
to me like it's the way to go (especially if your house current
might not be the best).

Mine is an APC LE1200 (probably much more than enough for a gaming
machine). I have no idea how it compares to other line
conditioners, I'm sure there's better.

Any other actual experiences, bad or good, with a line conditioner?

well they will not protect against a power failure...
so it's better to get a UPS.
UPS can be quite inexpensive...and also serve as a line conditioner

 

[John Doe]

well they will not protect against a power failure...

If I lived in an area with frequent blackouts, that would matter.

so it's better to get a UPS.

Maybe.

Some of us don't need protection against blackouts. If I
produced critical data in short periods of time with significant
risk of a blackout, I would appreciate a UPS, but I don't.

A UPS requires messing around with a large/heavy lead acid
battery.

UPS can be quite inexpensive... and also serve as a line
conditioner

That's nonsense. A UPS is about twice the price without line
conditioning.

Have you owned a line conditioner? I have owned a UPS. It failed
after about 18 months probably because of the strain frequent
brownouts caused. A line conditioner is designed to handle brownouts
and is probably much more reliable in an area prone to brownouts.

 

[w_tom]

Technical specifications for the LE1200 are damning for what
is not provided. For example, if AC voltage is 110 volts,
then what is the output voltage? We can assume output would
be 120 volts; but the specs just don't say. We can only
assume.

If input voltage drops to 95 volts, will output voltage
remain at 120 volts? Again, they don't say. Why not?

I suspect that this line conditioner outputs something
higher when line voltage drops to 90 volts and may not output
sufficient voltage when line voltage drops below 90 volts.
That helps. Right? Why would assumption become fact?

First learn what a computer power supply must do. AC line
voltage must drop to 90 VAC and still the computer must work
just fine - as if AC line voltage was 120 VAC. This is
specifically demanded by Intel specifications. Same is
required by other industry standards.

IOW what is the line conditioner doing if computer power
supply already makes a brownout - 90 VAC - irrelevant?

Line conditioner fixes line voltage for computers with
defective power supplies. Does it make more sense to buy the
$65 full retail supply so that line conditioner is not
necessary? Yes. But again, that requires a computer
assembler to first demand power supply numerical specs.

How low can line voltage go and still be corrected by the
APC line conditioner? We don't know. APC specifications
don't even provide that most essential numbers. A fact so
critical and not provided - it should raise every suspicious
hair on your body. APC often leaves consumers to assume some
functions that the APC product does not really perform. Be
woefully suspicious of a product that 'forgets' to provide
important technical numbers.

The APC makes no claims to protect from blackouts. It
claims to protect from brownouts - and leaves you to assume
what kind - the numbers.

 

[philo]

If I lived in an area with frequent blackouts, that would matter.

You only need a power glitch of 1/60 th of a second
to crash your machine...it's pretty common where i live.
it's not considered a black-out as the light just blink...
but it can sure cause a machine shut-down that a line-conditioner
cannot handle.

Maybe.

Some of us don't need protection against blackouts. If I
produced critical data in short periods of time with significant
risk of a blackout, I would appreciate a UPS, but I don't.

A UPS requires messing around with a large/heavy lead acid
battery.


That's nonsense. A UPS is about twice the price without line
conditioning.

well a UPS does not have to be too large
as you can just put the computer itself on it
and skip the printer and CRT

Have you owned a line conditioner? I have owned a UPS. It failed
after about 18 months probably because of the strain frequent
brownouts caused. A line conditioner is designed to handle brownouts
and is probably much more reliable in an area prone to brownouts.

Well I have 2 large UPS's in my house as I do a lot of
repairs etc.
Also numerous "cheapies" for my own machines.
One of them can handle a 24 hour power failure.
At any rate...some of my UPS's are *many* years old
and they are all running just fine


here is an example of overkill:

http://www.plazaearth.com/philo/laptop.jpg

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]> "philo"

If I lived in an area with frequent blackouts, that would matter.

You only need a power glitch of 1/60 th of a second
to crash your machine...it's pretty common where i live.[/QUOTE]

Only if you have a cheap power supply, or a vastly underpowered one.

http://www.plazaearth.com/philo/laptop.jpg

Now we're talking.

 

[w_tom]

The layman is cautioned about this setup in:
http://www.plazaearth.com/philo/laptop.jpg
Good reason why batteries are not recharged inside dwelling
including outgassing and explosion. That setup is indeed a
tribute to Tim Allen's Home Improvement - more power. But
then Tim also visited the hospital emergency room too often.

Philo's number of 1/60th is confirmed by Intel specs. A
power supply must maintain output power when AC mains is lost
for at least 17 milliseconds. IOW power supply will probably
work longer. But that 17 msec defines how fast a backup power
supply must respond to a blackout.

 

[philo]

Only if you have a cheap power supply, or a vastly underpowered one.

put it this way...
a line conditioner can only "finish" one incomplete sine wave...
even a cheapie UPS should go a few minutes

Now we're talking.

the UPS with those batteries should easily run a desktop or two
complete with crt's for 24 hours (probably a lot more)
the laptop (pictured) should run for several weeks (or more)

i'd really hate to have a machine go down right in the middle of loading
an OS!!!

working for a battery company helps a bit though <g>

 

[philo]

The layman is cautioned about this setup in:
http://www.plazaearth.com/philo/laptop.jpg
Good reason why batteries are not recharged inside dwelling
including outgassing and explosion. That setup is indeed a
tribute to Tim Allen's Home Improvement - more power. But
then Tim also visited the hospital emergency room too often.

The charger employes a hysteresis-loop algorythem...
coupled with gel cells.
the hydrogen emmission is negligible

 

[DevilsPGD]

put it this way...
a line conditioner can only "finish" one incomplete sine wave...
even a cheapie UPS should go a few minutes

Sure, but the goal in the post previous to mine was a 1/60th of a second
outage.

If you have a cheap enough power supply and a cheap enough UPS, you can
run with the mains off, but the switchover will cause a reboot. *sigh*

 

[philo]

Sure, but the goal in the post previous to mine was a 1/60th of a second
outage.

If you have a cheap enough power supply and a cheap enough UPS, you can
run with the mains off, but the switchover will cause a reboot. *sigh*

Why would anyone want to take such a chance is beyond me.
At least in my part of the country...the power company is not
that reliable...

here is what one of my friends did...
(the largest private solar cell bank in the state)

http://www.plazaearth.com/philo/solar.jpg


not too many power glitches at his place...
he also has a wind-generator!!!

 

[John Doe]

A persistent troll who searches the USENET archives daily for
posts about his pet issues (lightning strike, power
supply, UPS), just so he can go into that group and reply, without
references, as if he knows something. Unfortunately, he provides
lots of misinformation. However, his trolling is most useful in high
end high-tech groups (like sci.electronics.design) when regulars
don't recognize him and put well-written effort into refuting his
nonsense, and makes for some good reading.

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Technical specifications for the LE1200 are damning for what
is not provided. For example, if AC voltage is 110 volts,
then what is the output voltage? We can assume output would
be 120 volts; but the specs just don't say. We can only
assume.

If input voltage drops to 95 volts, will output voltage
remain at 120 volts? Again, they don't say. Why not?

I suspect that this line conditioner outputs something
higher when line voltage drops to 90 volts and may not output
sufficient voltage when line voltage drops below 90 volts.
That helps. Right? Why would assumption become fact?

First learn what a computer power supply must do. AC line
voltage must drop to 90 VAC and still the computer must work
just fine - as if AC line voltage was 120 VAC. This is
specifically demanded by Intel specifications. Same is
required by other industry standards.

IOW what is the line conditioner doing if computer power
supply already makes a brownout - 90 VAC - irrelevant?

Line conditioner fixes line voltage for computers with
defective power supplies. Does it make more sense to buy the
$65 full retail supply so that line conditioner is not
necessary? Yes. But again, that requires a computer
assembler to first demand power supply numerical specs.

How low can line voltage go and still be corrected by the
APC line conditioner? We don't know. APC specifications
don't even provide that most essential numbers. A fact so
critical and not provided - it should raise every suspicious
hair on your body. APC often leaves consumers to assume some
functions that the APC product does not really perform. Be
woefully suspicious of a product that 'forgets' to provide
important technical numbers.

The APC makes no claims to protect from blackouts. It
claims to protect from brownouts - and leaves you to assume
what kind - the numbers.

If I lived in an area with frequent blackouts, that would matter.


Maybe.

Some of us don't need protection against blackouts. If I
produced critical data in short periods of time with significant
risk of a blackout, I would appreciate a UPS, but I don't.

A UPS requires messing around with a large/heavy lead acid
battery.


That's nonsense. A UPS is about twice the price without line
conditioning.

Have you owned a line conditioner? I have owned a UPS. It failed
after about 18 months probably because of the strain frequent
brownouts caused. A line conditioner is designed to handle brownouts
and is probably much more reliable in an area prone to brownouts.

 

[w_tom]

The use of gel cells and not using lead acid car batteries
is essential to human safety. What kind of 'hysteresis-loop
alogrythem' is employed?

 

[w_tom]

A persistent troll who searches the USENET archives daily for
posts about ...

John Doe. Rattling him is so much fun.

 

[John Doe]

You only need a power glitch of 1/60 th of a second to crash your
machine...it's pretty common where i live.

That data (probably a rough approximation) bothered me before buying
a line conditioner, but I got over it. And apparently blackouts of
short duration are uncommon where I live.

it's not considered a black-out as the light just blink... but it
can sure cause a machine shut-down that a line-conditioner cannot
handle.

A brownout is reduced voltage, not necessarily a complete outage.

A line conditioner is not a 1/60th of a second UPS, it is a voltage
regulator.

I sure would like data for what the house current does and how the
line conditioner reacts. But oh well.

well a UPS does not have to be too large as you can just put the
computer itself on it and skip the printer and CRT

I was looking for robust but very short lived UPS support. I just
don't like the idea of fluctuations in house current messing with my
personal computer. The line conditioner is taking care of that
without using a battery.

 

[philo]

I sure would like data for what the house current does and how the
line conditioner reacts. But oh well.

well to finallly get around to answering your question...
the line voltage at your computer has several variations.

first off...due to power company loads...the voltage may rise and fall.
a good line conditioner (such as one that employs a ferroresonant
transformer)
will have constant voltage output over a very wide range of input.

then of course...there are voltage spikes...
not only on your incomming line from the power company...
but those generated internally such as turning on a major appliance.
a good line conditioner will also filter those out.

the reason i suggest a ferroresonant transformer type of line conditioner
is not only for their superior characteristics...
but due to their extreme simplicity (just the transformer itself and a
capacitor)
no other components are required...and thus they will last practically
forever.

one of my customers just retired a lot of their "ferro" equipment that had
been
in service for 30 years!!!!

 

[philo]

The use of gel cells and not using lead acid car batteries
is essential to human safety. What kind of 'hysteresis-loop
alogrythem' is employed?

those batts are NOT car batteries...
they are VRLA...so the explosion chance is very low
(they were pulls from a medical facility that changes their batteries
at intervals)


as to the charger (ooops it's algorithm)
anyway they do NOT float the batteries.
the charger is either on or off.
if the batteries fall below a specified voltage...the charger turns on...
and there is a specific set point for turning off...
right off the top of my head...i don't recall the set points...
my manual is down in the basement somewhere

 

[w_tom]

those batts are NOT car batteries...
they are VRLA...so the explosion chance is very low

Which is what I wanted you to note to others. Someone would
have looked at your picture, and then duplicated it with some
old car battery that was (for some reason) sitting about. The
batteries in that picture look similar to car batteries.

 

[w_tom]

Why retire ferro resonant equipment? That stuff does not
wear out.

 

[philo]

Why retire ferro resonant equipment? That stuff does not
wear out.

They were ferroresonant battery chargers actually
and the company moved to a new location and bought all new equipment.
They figured that they got their money's worth!!!!