Laser vs. Ink

[Rich, N9DKO]

greetings. i don't buy a lot of hardware as i tend to keep things
forever. while this works out pretty well in terms of getting my
money's worth it also puts me behind the curve when i do need to buy
new. so i'm seeking advice on a new printer purchase.

i currently use an old HP LJ 4Plus and an old Canon personal copier.
i'd like to replace both with a multi-function (4 in 1) printer that
will also print the occasional photo. i don't print all that much to
begin with so i'm trying to decide between ink and laser. this
printer would be for personal use, not business.


prior to the 4Plus i had an HP DJ500. the main problem was that the
ink nozzles would become clogged or dry out due to infrequent use.
when this happened i was able to occasionally re-hab the cartridge
back into service but more often than not i had to replace the cart.

question: am i going to run into the same sort of problem with
today's inkjets? i sometimes go for weeks without printing anything
________________________________________________________

if i haven't printed in a while my 4Plus will give me a 'toner low'
message . to rectify all i do is remove the cart, shake it up and
replace it. for this reason i'm considering a MF color laser. but
the only thing i'd need color for (ink or laser) is to print the
occasional photo

question: when i print a photo i'd like the quality of the print to
approach commercial photo finishing quality...good enough to frame,
give to family, etc. am i going to get that kind of quality from a
color laser or must i stick with ink to achieve that goal or are they
about equal?
________________________________________________________

the canon personal copier i have is actually pretty good...copies are
crisp and clean. the carts cost a fortune, though and there are no
paper trays. i have to manually place the source document on the
glass and then feed a single sheet. i use the copier a lot more than
the printer.

question: do the MF printers produce good, clean copies? is there a
difference in copy quality between ink and laser?
________________________________________________________

the function i'll end up using most would be the scanner. i have a
lot of personal documents that i'd like to digitize in order to
eliminate paper clutter. most of these documents are text only but
i'd also like to scan in my collection of 2x2 color slides as well as
a lot of color and B&W prints.

question: what sort of resolution minimums should i be looking for in
the scan function? any other things to watch for?
________________________________________________________

appreciate any and all thoughts on this as well as individual MF
printer recommendations.

73,
rich, n9dko

 

[Michael Johnson]

My advice is to get a multifunction device such as a Canon MP830. It
will do everything you need and then some. Photo print quality is
excellent, it has an excellent scanner and the 35 page document feeder
is great for scanning multiple pages. The software that comes with it
allows you to scan large numbers of pages (even two sided pages) and
save them as a single PDF file. I find this one of the most useful
features of my Canon MP780 (the MP830's predecessor). It will also send
and receive faxes make copies in black and white and color. It prints
and copies in duplex (two sided) and has two paper feeds. Also, you can
refill the cartridges in the MP830 with very little effort for about $1
each. Overall, it is one of the best multifunction printers on the
market, IMO.

 

[Barry Watzman]

Keep the LJ 4Plus for B&W printing. It is better quality (or at least
as good) and a LOT cheaper to operate than any inkjet.

Photos should be printed on an inkjet printer, not a color laser. There
is no comparison of the quality of color laser to inket; inkjet crosses
the finish line before color laser even gets out of the starting gate.

Today's color inkjets are very good except for their cost of operation.
The cartridges are mostly around $30, and you will be replacing one or
more many times a year.

The canon pc personal copiers were also pretty good, it's too bad you
have one of the extremely low-end models. I have had two higher end
models with paper trays, reduction enlargement, faster speeds, etc. and
they are excellent. I'd keep it also and just use an inkjet color
multifunction all-in-one as a COLOR copier for those occasions when you
need one.

While both the color printers and color MF units are quite good (except
for the cost of operation), the scanners in MF units are simply not as
good as upper end stand alone scanners. All of them have adequate
resolution, but the overall scanning capability is just not that well
supported (software is part of the issue, CIS vs. CCD scanning elements
are part of the issue).

For scanning documents, you might want to consider an older HP 5490C.
These are available cheap on E-Bay (as low as $10 and rarely over $30)
and they were $400 scanners and are still high-end.

For scanning 35mm slides and negatives, nothing beats a Nikon film
scanner model with "Digital ICE". Expensive ($150 to $500), but the
only flatbeds that come close are a few high-end Epson models.

 

[Hari Seldon]

greetings. i don't buy a lot of hardware as i tend to keep things
forever. while this works out pretty well in terms of getting my
money's worth it also puts me behind the curve when i do need to buy
new. so i'm seeking advice on a new printer purchase.

i currently use an old HP LJ 4Plus and an old Canon personal copier.
i'd like to replace both with a multi-function (4 in 1) printer that
will also print the occasional photo. i don't print all that much to
begin with so i'm trying to decide between ink and laser. this
printer would be for personal use, not business.


prior to the 4Plus i had an HP DJ500. the main problem was that the
ink nozzles would become clogged or dry out due to infrequent use.
when this happened i was able to occasionally re-hab the cartridge
back into service but more often than not i had to replace the cart.

question: am i going to run into the same sort of problem with
today's inkjets? i sometimes go for weeks without printing anything
________________________________________________________

if i haven't printed in a while my 4Plus will give me a 'toner low'
message . to rectify all i do is remove the cart, shake it up and
replace it. for this reason i'm considering a MF color laser. but
the only thing i'd need color for (ink or laser) is to print the
occasional photo

question: when i print a photo i'd like the quality of the print to
approach commercial photo finishing quality...good enough to frame,
give to family, etc. am i going to get that kind of quality from a
color laser or must i stick with ink to achieve that goal or are they
about equal?
________________________________________________________

the canon personal copier i have is actually pretty good...copies are
crisp and clean. the carts cost a fortune, though and there are no
paper trays. i have to manually place the source document on the
glass and then feed a single sheet. i use the copier a lot more than
the printer.

question: do the MF printers produce good, clean copies? is there a
difference in copy quality between ink and laser?
________________________________________________________

the function i'll end up using most would be the scanner. i have a
lot of personal documents that i'd like to digitize in order to
eliminate paper clutter. most of these documents are text only but
i'd also like to scan in my collection of 2x2 color slides as well as
a lot of color and B&W prints.

question: what sort of resolution minimums should i be looking for in
the scan function? any other things to watch for?
________________________________________________________

appreciate any and all thoughts on this as well as individual MF
printer recommendations.

73,
rich, n9dko

Keep your HP Lasjer at all costs. Consider buying a cheap inkjet for the
fotos

 

[Gary Tait]

prior to the 4Plus i had an HP DJ500. the main problem was that the
ink nozzles would become clogged or dry out due to infrequent use.
when this happened i was able to occasionally re-hab the cartridge
back into service but more often than not i had to replace the cart.

question: am i going to run into the same sort of problem with
today's inkjets? i sometimes go for weeks without printing anything

Yes. Moreso likely with the finer nozzels these days.

question: when i print a photo i'd like the quality of the print to
approach commercial photo finishing quality...good enough to frame,
give to family, etc. am i going to get that kind of quality from a
color laser or must i stick with ink to achieve that goal or are they
about equal?

If you aren't printing a lot of photos, and want near commercial
quality, then have them printed by such printing outlets.
I don't think color lasers will approach that, or even inkjet for
photos.

________________________________________________________

question: do the MF printers produce good, clean copies? is there a
difference in copy quality between ink and laser?

The printers/scanners get pretty fine these days. It will be a digital
copy, rather than an optical copy the copier does though.

________________________________________________________

the function i'll end up using most would be the scanner. i have a
lot of personal documents that i'd like to digitize in order to
eliminate paper clutter. most of these documents are text only but
i'd also like to scan in my collection of 2x2 color slides as well as
a lot of color and B&W prints.

question: what sort of resolution minimums should i be looking for in
the scan function? any other things to watch for?

I'd hire that out, perhaps (the slides that is, to somebody that has a
purpose built slide scanner)

 

[Rich, N9DKO]

many thanks for your post, michael. my primary concern with any
inkjet are the nozzles on the print head becoming fouled or clogged
due to infrequent use. when that happened with my ancient DeskJet 500
i was only partially successful in cleaning them...most of the time i
had to toss the cart and replace it with another. being able to
refill the carts for $1 wouldn't seem to matter if the nozzle heads
become clogged. what are your experiences with this?

and many thanks to the other posters for their thoughts as well. it
seems i need to adjust my thinking about a MF printer.

i don't print all that many photos anyway and for those that i do i've
been uploading the digital images to walgreens or CVS or bringing in a
CD-R to them for printing. that's worked out pretty well.

gary, you suggested that i farm out the task of scanning my slides and
negative and maybe that's a good thought. i have a ton of old slides
but i rarely shoot film of any sort these days. barry, you suggested
a stand-alone scanner such as the SJ5490C and i see your point but i'm
trying to reduce the amount of hardware i have, not add to it.

so if i take photo printing and slide/negative scanning off the table
i'd still be looking for a multi-function device for scanning
documents and copying. and since i'm still concerned with ink nozzles
drying up and clogging maybe a B&W MF laser would be a better choice.
any thoughts along those lines?

73,
rich, n9dko

 

[ggreekx]

Keep your laser printer and buy a cheap dye-sub printer for your
photos.No printhead,No cloggs,same $/photo,excellent quality and
resolution.

 

[Michael Johnson]

many thanks for your post, michael. my primary concern with any
inkjet are the nozzles on the print head becoming fouled or clogged
due to infrequent use. when that happened with my ancient DeskJet 500
i was only partially successful in cleaning them...most of the time i
had to toss the cart and replace it with another. being able to
refill the carts for $1 wouldn't seem to matter if the nozzle heads
become clogged. what are your experiences with this?

I haven't had many issues with the head clogging on any of our Canon
inkjet printers. Just making a color print once a week should keep it
running fine. Also, the Canon printers don't have a head in the print
cartridge like many HP printers. The head is separate and easily
replaced by the user.

 

[Tony]

I haven't had many issues with the head clogging on any of our Canon
inkjet printers. Just making a color print once a week should keep it
running fine. Also, the Canon printers don't have a head in the print
cartridge like many HP printers. The head is separate and easily
replaced by the user.

For clarification, some Canon printers do have the printhead built into the
cartridge. Best to check before you buy, depending on your preferences.

Tony
MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[Barry Watzman]

RE: "Yes. Moreso likely with the finer nozzels these days"

I would have to disagree (the question was whether he would have
problems with ink cartridge clogging when printing infrequently).

I'm not saying that this cannot or won't or never happens, but the
printer makers have made huge strides, and today's products are better
in every way (including in this regard) than ancient products like the
Deskjet 500, which was from the late 1980's. There is just no
comparison between late 1980's inkjet products and today's products.
And I sometimes go a week without printing, and my kids sometimes go 3
months without printing (like over the summer when they are out of
school), and none of us has experienced frequent clogging on any of our
3 inkjet printers.

Re: "I don't think color lasers will approach that, or even inkjet for
photos"

You are really out of touch with modern products. Modern inkjets can
print BETTER photos than true chemical photographs. And I'm talking
about under $100 consumer printers.

 

[Barry Watzman]

There was a time (almost 2 decades ago) when this was good advice.
Modern inkjets are as good as dye sublimation and a lot cheaper to
operate, and are also suitable for everyday printing.

 

[Michael Johnson]

For clarification, some Canon printers do have the printhead built into the
cartridge. Best to check before you buy, depending on your preferences.

Not the one I recommended.

 

[Bob Headrick]

Yes. Moreso likely with the finer nozzels these days.

I would disagree with this. Today's DeskJet printers are expected to (and
do) survive the "Arizona schoolhouse in summertime" test, where printers in
schools are expected to start up without issues after the three month summer
vacation. A few weeks at a time should not be any problem for a printer
such as the DeskJet 6940, see
http://www.shopping.hp.com/product/printers/inkjets/1/storefronts/C8970A%23B1H.
This printer uses the relatively large 96 & 97 cartridges which provide
reasonable cost per page.

For all-in-one printers my favorites are not longer offered. I own three
Photosmart 2610 AIO's I picked up on eBay. They have a printer section very
similar to the 6940 and a reasonable scanner and fax. I do not think they
would do a reasonable job of scanning slides, for that I think a dedicated
slide scanner would be better. The Officejet 7410 is like the Photosmart
2610 but it has an automatic document feeder. It is capable of scanning and
copying double sided automatically.

- Bob Headrick, W7OV

 

[ggreekx]

There was a time (almost 2 decades ago) when this was good advice.
Modern inkjets are as good as dye sublimation and a lot cheaper to
operate, and are also suitable for everyday printing.

cheaper?Maybe if you print a lot of photos.If you print 1-5/month i
think the best is a dye-sub if you don't want to waste all your ink in
cleaning the printhead.
I think that the automatic clean cycle is the maggior problem of the
inkjet.Most of the times it cleans without being necessary

 

[Arthur Entlich]

What are dye subs costing per unit to produce 4x6" prints these days?

Art

 

[ggreekx]

What are dye subs costing per unit to produce 4x6" prints these days?

About 0.30$/4x6 (canon)

 

[ggreekx]

What are dye subs costing per unit to produce 4x6" prints these days?

Art

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/c...lFeaturesTabAct&fcategoryid=118&modelid=11920

0.28$/photo

 

[Barry Watzman]

Well, at full list prices, inkjets are under 24 cents per 4x6 prints,
and you can cut that way down in a number of ways:

-buy consumables on sale
-refill ink cartridges
-OfficeMax and Staples give you $3 back when you return an empty inkjet
cartridge. In some cases this can cut the cost of printing in half (an
HP "photo value pack" for the 02 series printers costs $36 to $42 and
has 6 cartridges in it).

There is no way that the operating cost of a dye sublimation printer is
less than that of an inkjet printer with smart buying of the
consumables. And it's actual cost may be 50% to 100% more.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Dye sub producing 4x6" prints are more costly than having the printing
done at most big box stores these days. In Canada (and our dollar is
about par with the US these days) we pay in canada from $.12 to $.19 on
average, and the nice thing is that since its digital they have no negs
to ruin in handling, so if it isn't right "redo".

I find in general the Kodak kiosk machines (not the dye sub ones, the
one hour variety) are pretty well designed, allowing for cropping, clean
up adjustment red-eye fixes, etc, and they print on a good quality
"archival" photo (silver halide wet process) print paper.

Cost per print on inkjet is lower, and tests definite can be less costly
since you aren't stuck using the full print to do one. You can gang on
a larger sheet for multiple prints, and also have the advantage of
making prints up to 8.5" width x ....

The main place I agree with the use of dye transfer is for real estate
space (they are very small and they don't get clogged heads. However,
even dye sup transfer sheet have a expiration date usually. Also, there
is a fair amount of waste made from the ribbon, and should the
cartridges be difficult to come by, you are really at the end, since
they aren't typically made by 3rd party and can't be "refilled".

I don't know how permanent they are these days, since they added a UV
clear coat on most. They used to be terrible for fading.

I recommend them for people with very little space (travelers, people in
sales who need them for business use and move around a lot, people
living on boats, etc) mainly, who may not have access to photo labs.
Some dye sub a re self contained and you don't even need a computer,
just slip the flash memory in and print.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Still costly for those who don't require at home service, plus the cost
of the printer and you get stuck with the duds.

Art