Jon Skeet is GONE

P

Peter Morris

Well, I hate web-based forums.

At least on stack overflow you don't get EGO fights :)

It sounds like Stack Overflow has addressed some of the issues that are
the usual areas where web forums pale in comparison to Usenet, but it's
still an incredibly inefficient use of resources, and doesn't support
offline access.
Click to expand...

I tried it for a while but there were a few things that really annoyed me
about it. I put in change requests only to get a "wont do" reply. I've not
bothered with it in a while.

The problem with StackOverflow is the points. People seem to want to earn
as many points as possible, like a status symbol or something I suppose.
The problem with this is that you can get more points for posting subjective
questions than you can from either asking technical questions or answering
questions. As a consequence I have found that some of my technical
questions remain without a suitable answer and silly questions get lots of
attention.

I suspect that because lots of people view the silly questions people tend
to answer those because they are more likely to get their answer voted up
and earn them more points. For example "What's your most contraversial
programming opinion?" 142 votes, 255 answers, 19,000 views.

For example I answered a question "Which design pattern to use for filtering
query?" - in which I gave quite an exhaustive answer (which was accepted)
and I earned 45 points for it.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/525370/525608#525608

But I also asked a silly "What computer functionality would you like to see
in real life?" - took me seconds to write, is totally pointless, and I
earned 50 points for it.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/524209


I'd ask on there if I were stuck, but generally when I am stuck it is on a
specialist subject and I find the "correct" forum for that subject is much
more productive.
 
S

Shunyata Kharg

Looks like he prefers Stack Overflow to the newsgroup. That's his
prerogative. But you never know...one day he might come back.
Click to expand...

I think Marc Gravell went with Jon over to StackOverflow. They are now the
number one and number two in terms of highest "Reputation".

From a practical/technical point of view, I agree that NNTP has several
advantages over web forums, although I recognise that this is fast becoming
a minority opinion. However, in the case of StackOverflow, I don't think it
is simply practicality that's winning; in my opinion it's more a case of the
attraction of collecting points for answers. In this sense, the
StackOverflow has a cleverly designed psychological "hook" into the geek
psyche ;-)
 
B

Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]

Peter Duniho said:
That's not true. He was, for a time, doing double-duty, posting as much
here as on the Stack Overflow web site. Then, he was absent for a
stretch. Recently, he did reappear here briefly, replying to some posts.
And yes, since then he hasn't posted anything to this newsgroup.

Looks like he prefers Stack Overflow to the newsgroup. That's his
prerogative. But you never know...one day he might come back.
Click to expand...

Because this is Jon Skeet we are talking about, I feel that I must point out
that there is no compelling evidence that he was ever here.

After all, one can't count his posts as evidence, b/c Jon Skeet's answers
find questions and post themselves.
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Shunyata said:
I think Marc Gravell went with Jon over to StackOverflow. They are now
the number one and number two in terms of highest "Reputation".

From a practical/technical point of view, I agree that NNTP has several
advantages over web forums, although I recognise that this is fast
becoming a minority opinion. However, in the case of StackOverflow, I
don't think it is simply practicality that's winning; in my opinion it's
more a case of the attraction of collecting points for answers. In this
sense, the StackOverflow has a cleverly designed psychological "hook"
into the geek psyche ;-)
Click to expand...

There is probably something true in that.

Note that stackoverflow.com is not new with that concept. It
have been used on experts-exchange.com for many years.

(stackoverflow.com seems to be on the way up while experts-exchange.com
seems to be on the way down, but that is another story)

Arne
 
P

Peter Morris

(stackoverflow.com seems to be on the way up while experts-exchange.com
seems to be on the way down, but that is another story)
Click to expand...

The reason I stopped using experts exchange (other than the obvious joke
that sex changes aren't reversible) is because you had to pay points to view
answers. Then when they gave the ability to buy points it kind of made the
hard earned points of other people insignificant.
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Peter said:
The reason I stopped using experts exchange (other than the obvious joke
that sex changes aren't reversible) is because you had to pay points to
view answers. Then when they gave the ability to buy points it kind of
made the hard earned points of other people insignificant.
Click to expand...

I am convinced that their traffic must have dropped like
a bank stocks when the blocked anonymous surfers typical
coming in via Google from reading the answers.

Arne
 
C

Cor Ligthert[MVP]

Michael,

In my idea they are in fact writting.

"I want to spam you and sell your email address to others"

Cor
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Cor said:
In my idea they are in fact writting.

"I want to spam you and sell your email address to others"
Click to expand...

So stackoverflow.com are filling the gap.

Arne
 
M

Mythran

Arne Vajhøj said:
I am convinced that their traffic must have dropped like
a bank stocks when the blocked anonymous surfers typical
coming in via Google from reading the answers.

Arne
Click to expand...

ahh, well then you'll be happy to hear...next time you find a question on
experts-exchange that was answered but blocked...scroll all the way down the
screen below the advertisements....on all of the machines I've used, the
answers are visible...but below everything :p (Using FireFox...dunno about
IE).

:p

Mythran
 
G

G.S.

If they show in Firefox then try looking at the source of the page,
perhaps they are in there somewhere.

rossum
Click to expand...

That is correct - I was also avoiding results from this site until one
day I did a Ctrl-F search for the term I was interested in and that's
how my attention shifted below all the ads - yes - the answers are
there. I used IE then.
 
P

Peter Morris

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/Viruses/Q_22087844.html

I don't see the answer in the source. The closest I see is this

<div class="answerBody quoted">
<div class="vsAllSol"></div>
</div>

But as you see it is empty.



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<div class="qTitle loggedOutQTitle">
<h1 class="titleHeader">Can't open <a rel="nofollow"
href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_blank">www.hotmail.com</a></h1>

</div>
<h3>Asked by <a class="highlight" href="/M_1019125.html">j4jack</a> in
Anti-Virus Applications</h3>
<h3>Tags: <span>
<a class="tag" rel="tag nofollow noindex"
href="http://www.experts-exchange.com/tag/hotmail,+xp+home+edition">hotmail,
xp home edition</a></span></h3>
<div class="qBody" id="EchoTopic">
Hi, Got a laptop with XP home edition, running IE6 that will allow you to
open <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.hotmail.com"
target="_blank">www.hotmail.com</a>, but one you enter the username and
password, it redirects to login.live.com in the usual way, but shows page
cannot be displyed. All other web sites work OK<br /><br />What i have
done:<br /><br />Cleared Cache &amp; Cookies &amp; contents of %TEMP%
Directory<br />System Restore to the earliest point<br />Ran Spybot S&amp;D,
and adaware se personal fixed any problems found<br />Full AV check with bit
defender<br />System restore point created at this point<br />Installed
Firefox 2.0 but that will not locate the internet.<br />Upgraded to IE7, and
that would not get on the internet, so restored back to the previous restore
point from 2 steps above.<br /><br />Here is the log from HIJACK this...<br
/><br />Logfile of HijackThis v1.99.1<br />Scan saved at 09:56:57, on
09/12/2006<br />Platform: Windows XP SP2 (WinNT 5.01.2600)<br />MSIE:
Internet Explorer v6.00 SP2 (6.00.2900.2180)<br /><br />Running
processes:<br />C:\WINDOWS\System32\smss.e<wbr />xe<br
/>C:\WINDOWS\system32\winlog<wbr />on.exe<br
/>C:\WINDOWS\system32\servic<wbr />es.exe<br
/>C:\WINDOWS\system32\lsass.<wbr />exe<br />C:\WINDOWS\system32\svchos<wbr
/>t.exe<br />C:\WINDOWS\System32\svchos<wbr />t.exe<br
/>C:\WINDOWS\system32\spools<wbr />v.exe<br />C:\WINDOWS\Explorer.EXE<br
/>C:\WINDOWS\system32\svchos<wbr />t.exe<br />C:\Program Files\Common
Files\Softwin\BitDefender Communicator\xcommsvr.exe<br />C:\Program
Files\Common Files\Softwin\BitDefender Scan Server\bdss.exe<br />C:\Program
Files\Softwin\BitDefender8<wbr />\bdmcon.ex<wbr />e<br />C:\Program
Files\Softwin\BitDefender8<wbr />\bdnagent.<wbr />exe<br />C:\Program
Files\Internet Explorer\IEXPLORE.EXE<br />C:\Program
Files\Softwin\BitDefender8<wbr />\bdlite.ex<wbr />e<br
/>C:\HJT\HijackThis.exe<br /><br />R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\In<wbr
/>ternet Explorer\Main,Search Bar = <a rel="nofollow"
href="http://format.packardbell.com/cgi-bin/redirect/?country=UK&range=AD&phase=6&key=SEARCH"
target="_blank">http://format.packardbell.<wbr />com/cgi-bi<wbr
/>n/redirect<wbr />/?country=<wbr />UK&amp;<wbr />range=A<wbr
/>D&amp;phase=6&amp;<wbr />key=SEARCH<wbr /></a><br />R0 -
HKCU\Software\Microsoft\In<wbr />ternet Explorer\Main,Start Page = <a
rel="nofollow" href="http://uk.msn.com/"
target="_blank">http://uk.msn.com/</a><br />R1 -
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\In<wbr />ternet Explorer\Main,Default_Page<wbr
/>_URL = file://C:\APPS\IE\offline\<wbr />uk.htm<br />R1 -
HKCU\Software\Microsoft\In<wbr />ternet Connection Wizard,ShellNext = <a
rel="nofollow"
href="http://r.office.microsoft.com/r/hlidOfficeHomeFromClientWithLogging/1033/EC01022712/2"
target="_blank">http://r.office.microsoft.<wbr />com/r/<wbr />hlid<wbr
/>OfficeHome<wbr />FromClient<wbr />WithLoggin<wbr />g/1033/EC0<wbr
/>1022712/2</a><br />R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\In<wbr />ternet
Explorer\Main,Window Title = Packard Bell<br />O2 - BHO: AcroIEHlprObj
Class - {06849E9F-C8D7-4D59-B87D-7<wbr />84B7D6BE0B<wbr />3} - C:\Program
Files\Adobe\Acrobat 6.0\Reader\ActiveX\AcroIEH<wbr />elper.dll<br />O2 -
BHO: Web assistant - {9ECB9560-04F9-4bbc-943D-2<wbr />98DDF1699E<wbr />1} -
C:\Program Files\Common Files\Symantec Shared\AdBlocking\NISShExt<wbr
/>.dll<br />O2 - BHO: NAV Helper - {BDF3E430-B101-42AD-A544-F<wbr
/>ADC6B08487<wbr />2} - C:\Program Files\Norton Internet Security\Norton
AntiVirus\NavShExt.dll<br />O3 - Toolbar: Web assistant -
{0B53EAC3-8D69-4b9e-9B19-A<wbr />37C9A5676A<wbr />7} - C:\Program
Files\Common Files\Symantec Shared\AdBlocking\NISShExt<wbr />.dll<br />O3 -
Toolbar: Norton AntiVirus - {42CDD1BF-3FFB-4238-8AD1-7<wbr />859DF00B1D<wbr
/>6} - C:\Program Files\Norton Internet Security\Norton
AntiVirus\NavShExt.dll<br />O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [BDMCon] &quot;C:\Program
Files\Softwin\BitDefender8<wbr />\bdmcon.ex<wbr />e&quot;<br />O4 -
HKLM\..\Run: [BDNewsAgent] &quot;C:\Program Files\Softwin\BitDefender8<wbr
/>\bdnagent.<wbr />exe&quot;<br />O8 - Extra context menu item: E&amp;xport
to Microsoft Excel - res://C:\PROGRA~1\MICROS~2<wbr />\OFFICE11\<wbr
/>EXCEL.EXE/<wbr />3000<br />O9 - Extra button: (no name) -
{08B0E5C0-4FCB-11CF-AAA5-0<wbr />0401C60850<wbr />1} - C:\Program
Files\Java\j2re1.4.2_05\bi<wbr />n\npjpi142<wbr />_05.dll<br />O9 - Extra
'Tools' menuitem: Sun Java Console - {08B0E5C0-4FCB-11CF-AAA5-0<wbr
/>0401C60850<wbr />1} - C:\Program Files\Java\j2re1.4.2_05\bi<wbr
/>n\npjpi142<wbr />_05.dll<br />O9 - Extra button: Research -
{92780B25-18CC-41C8-B9BE-3<wbr />C9C571A826<wbr />3} -
C:\PROGRA~1\MICROS~2\OFFIC<wbr />E11\REFIEB<wbr />AR.DLL<br />O9 - Extra
button: Real.com - {CD67F990-D8E9-11d2-98FE-0<wbr />0C0F0318AF<wbr />E} -
C:\WINDOWS\system32\Shdocv<wbr />w.dll<br />O9 - Extra button: Messenger -
{FB5F1910-F110-11d2-BB9E-0<wbr />0C04F79568<wbr />3} - C:\Program
Files\Messenger\msmsgs.exe<wbr /><br />O9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: Windows
Messenger - {FB5F1910-F110-11d2-BB9E-0<wbr />0C04F79568<wbr />3} -
C:\Program Files\Messenger\msmsgs.exe<wbr /><br />O14 - IERESET.INF:
START_PAGE_URL=file://C:\A<wbr />PPS\IE\off<wbr />line\uk.ht<wbr />m<br
/>O20 - Winlogon Notify: igfxcui - C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\igfxsr<wbr
/>vc.dll<br />O23 - Service: BitDefender Scan Server (bdss) - Unknown
owner - C:\Program Files\Common Files\Softwin\BitDefender Scan
Server\bdss.exe&quot; /service (file missing)<br />O23 - Service: Pml Driver
HPZ12 - HP - C:\WINDOWS\system32\HPZipm<wbr />12.exe<br />O23 - Service:
BitDefender Communicator (XCOMM) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files\Common
Files\Softwin\BitDefender Communicator\xcommsvr.exe&quot;<wbr /> /service
(file missing)<br /><br />Please help!!!<br /><br />Thanks in advance<a
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<div><strong>Tags:</strong> hotmail, xp home edition</div>

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return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">12.09.2006 at 02:24PM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18108922</span></span><div class="t2i"
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<p>At Experts Exchange, members can ask their questions to thousands of
technology professionals,
also known as Experts. Experts compete and collaborate to answer those
questions by leaving
comments like this one.</p>

<p><a
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minimizeButton" onClick="minimize('answerSection18131567', true, true);
return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">12.13.2006 at 08:09AM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18131567</span></span><div class="t2i"
style="background: url(http://images.experts-exchange.com/t/59-50.png)
no-repeat;width:108px;height:19px;"></div></td><td
class="r"></td></tr></table><div class="bl"><div class="br"><div
class="bbg"><div class="empty"></div><div class="bc"><div
class="underline"></div>

<div class="answerBody quoted">
<p>At Experts Exchange, members can ask their questions to thousands of
technology professionals,
also known as Experts. Experts compete and collaborate to answer those
questions by leaving
comments like this one.</p>

<p><a
href="javascript:signUpCorpOption(20,'dJuJnrNabL6I9F6dUqgI7w%3D%3D',553,'/Applications/Viruses/Q_22087844.html',7);"
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return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">12.16.2006 at 06:56AM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18151685</span></span><div class="t2i"
style="background: url(http://images.experts-exchange.com/t/60-50.png)
no-repeat;width:111px;height:19px;"></div></td><td
class="r"></td></tr></table><div class="bl"><div class="br"><div
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<div class="answerBody quoted">
<p>Often, when Experts are collaborating with members who have asked
questions, they will request
additional information about the problem. Askers respond with an author
comment like this one.</p>

<p><a
href="javascript:signUpCorpOption(20,'dJuJnrNabL6I9F6dUqgI7w%3D%3D',553,'/Applications/Viruses/Q_22087844.html',7);"
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return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">12.16.2006 at 07:30AM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18151782</span></span><div class="t2i"
style="background: url(http://images.experts-exchange.com/t/59-50.png)
no-repeat;width:108px;height:19px;"></div></td><td
class="r"></td></tr></table><div class="bl"><div class="br"><div
class="bbg"><div class="empty"></div><div class="bc"><div
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<div class="answerBody quoted">
<p>At Experts Exchange, members can ask their questions to thousands of
technology professionals,
also known as Experts. Experts compete and collaborate to answer those
questions by leaving
comments like this one.</p>

<p><a
href="javascript:signUpCorpOption(20,'dJuJnrNabL6I9F6dUqgI7w%3D%3D',553,'/Applications/Viruses/Q_22087844.html',7);"
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minimizeButton" onClick="minimize('answerSection18158717', true, true);
return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">12.18.2006 at 07:10AM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18158717</span></span><div class="t2i"
style="background: url(http://images.experts-exchange.com/t/60-50.png)
no-repeat;width:111px;height:19px;"></div></td><td
class="r"></td></tr></table><div class="bl"><div class="br"><div
class="bbg"><div class="empty"></div><div class="bc"><div
class="underline"></div>
<div class="answerBody quoted">
<p>Often, when Experts are collaborating with members who have asked
questions, they will request
additional information about the problem. Askers respond with an author
comment like this one.</p>

<p><a
href="javascript:signUpCorpOption(20,'dJuJnrNabL6I9F6dUqgI7w%3D%3D',553,'/Applications/Viruses/Q_22087844.html',7);"
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return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">12.18.2006 at 07:50AM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18159087</span></span><div class="t2i"
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no-repeat;width:108px;height:19px;"></div></td><td
class="r"></td></tr></table><div class="bl"><div class="br"><div
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<div class="answerBody quoted">
<p>At Experts Exchange, members can ask their questions to thousands of
technology professionals,
also known as Experts. Experts compete and collaborate to answer those
questions by leaving
comments like this one.</p>

<p><a
href="javascript:signUpCorpOption(20,'dJuJnrNabL6I9F6dUqgI7w%3D%3D',553,'/Applications/Viruses/Q_22087844.html',7);"
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minimizeButton" onClick="minimize('answerSection18265506', true, true);
return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">01.08.2007 at 01:12AM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18265506</span></span><div class="t2i"
style="background: url(http://images.experts-exchange.com/t/60-50.png)
no-repeat;width:111px;height:19px;"></div></td><td
class="r"></td></tr></table><div class="bl"><div class="br"><div
class="bbg"><div class="empty"></div><div class="bc"><div
class="underline"></div>
<div class="answerBody quoted">
<p>Often, when Experts are collaborating with members who have asked
questions, they will request
additional information about the problem. Askers respond with an author
comment like this one.</p>

<p><a
href="javascript:signUpCorpOption(20,'dJuJnrNabL6I9F6dUqgI7w%3D%3D',553,'/Applications/Viruses/Q_22087844.html',7);"
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return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">01.08.2007 at 08:47AM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18268128</span></span><div class="t2i"
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no-repeat;width:114px;height:19px;"></div></td><td
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return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">01.08.2007 at 09:57AM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18268775</span></span><div class="t2i"
style="background: url(http://images.experts-exchange.com/t/60-50.png)
no-repeat;width:111px;height:19px;"></div></td><td
class="r"></td></tr></table><div class="bl"><div class="br"><div
class="bbg"><div class="empty"></div><div class="bc"><div
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<div class="answerBody quoted">
<p>Often, when Experts are collaborating with members who have asked
questions, they will request
additional information about the problem. Askers respond with an author
comment like this one.</p>

<p><a
href="javascript:signUpCorpOption(20,'dJuJnrNabL6I9F6dUqgI7w%3D%3D',553,'/Applications/Viruses/Q_22087844.html',7);"
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return false;">[-]</a><span class="sectionHeaderExtra">01.09.2007 at 01:53AM
PST,<span class="answerID"> ID: 18274237</span></span><div class="t2i"
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no-repeat;width:108px;height:19px;"></div></td><td
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<p>At Experts Exchange, members can ask their questions to thousands of
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M

Mythran

Peter Morris said:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/Viruses/Q_22087844.html

I don't see the answer in the source. The closest I see is this

<div class="answerBody quoted">
<div class="vsAllSol"></div>
</div>

But as you see it is empty.
Click to expand...



Navigating directly to the page, you are correct that I don't see the
answer. Open IE, goto:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=experts+exchange+Q_22087844&aq=f&oq=

Click on the first link, and wait for it to load then scroll down towards
the bottom. On my machine, it shows ALL of the replies.

Simple google search :) <3 Google

:)

Mythran
 
S

Shunyata Kharg

Mythran,
Click on the first link, and wait for it to load then scroll down
towards the bottom. On my machine, it shows ALL of the replies.

Simple google search :) <3 Google
Click to expand...

How interesting, thanks for the information! I get the same here and can
also reproduce the behaviour in FireFox. Not only that, but the first URL
that comes up in the Google search is identical to the one Peter posted,
however, the answers can only be seen by clicking on the Google URL. Even
opening the very same URL with the answers that display in a new tab
produces a page without the answers in it. Google is magic ;-)
 
J

Jon Skeet

(Marc pointed me at this thread.)

At least on stack overflow you don't get EGO fights :)
Click to expand...

You don't get the same *kind* of ego fights...
I tried it for a while but there were a few things that really annoyed me
about it.  I put in change requests only to get a "wont do" reply.  I've not
bothered with it in a while.

The problem with StackOverflow is the points.  People seem to want to earn
as many points as possible, like a status symbol or something I suppose.
The problem with this is that you can get more points for posting subjective
questions than you can from either asking technical questions or answering
questions.  As a consequence I have found that some of my technical
questions remain without a suitable answer and silly questions get lots of
attention.
Click to expand...

Except that subjective questions are almost always marked "community
wiki" which means they don't earn you any reputation.
I suspect that because lots of people view the silly questions people tend
to answer those because they are more likely to get their answer voted up
and earn them more points.  For example "What's your most contraversial
programming opinion?" 142 votes, 255 answers, 19,000 views.
Click to expand...

And 0 rep points allocated, I believe. (Badges, yes, but not rep.)
(Someone could have *unticked* CW for their answer, admittedly - I
haven't checked.)

I don't view that as a silly question though - I wouldn't, seeing as I
asked it. There's a mixture of silly answers and sensible ones - and
some of the sensible ones are very interesting.
For example I answered a question "Which design pattern to use for filtering
query?" - in which I gave quite an exhaustive answer (which was accepted)
and I earned 45 points for it.http://stackoverflow.com/questions/525370/525608#525608

But I also asked a silly "What computer functionality would you like to see
in real life?" - took me seconds to write, is totally pointless, and I
earned 50 points for it.http://stackoverflow.com/questions/524209
Click to expand...

Did you actually get points for it, or are you just going on the
votes? Again, if that had been community wiki (as most people would
think it should be) you wouldn't have gained any rep.
I'd ask on there if I were stuck, but generally when I am stuck it is on a
specialist subject and I find the "correct" forum for that subject is much
more productive.
Click to expand...

For highly specialist subjects, you'd have to be lucky. For non-
specialist Q&A, Stack Overflow is great. For discussion, it's pretty
poor. I do miss the discussion side of things - and no doubt I'll be
back here more regularly at some point. For my current lifestyle,
Stack Overflow is easier to manage - I only use offline newsgroup
access from one of the four computers I regularly use, which makes
keeping up with what I've read relatively tricky, and I haven't seen a
web NNTP client that's half as good as Stack Overflow. Oh, and being
able to see nicely formatted code is nice too :)

Anyway, I hope everyone's having fun here, and I'm sure I'll be back
to a greater or lesser extent over time.

Jon
 

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