Job statistics XXVII : Java/J2EE uber alle????

[asj]

well, at least for the forseeable future, it looks like.

i've always thought mauricio aguilar was a loony for continuing to post
these job stats, when we all know C#/.NET jobs HAVE to go up sometime
and equalize as VB and other non-.NET microsoft tech jobs go down.

also, search engines can frequently be misused, so i tend to go with
guys who actually COUNT by eye if possible (as a guy below did).

here's the relevant stats:

"This list is picked up from dice.com on 11.04.2003.
"Numbers show job offerings in last 30 days with no other restrictions:

1. Java - 4355
2. J2EE - 4227
3. Unix - 4173
4. SQL - 3989
5. C++ - 3888
6. Oracle - 3676
7. ASP - 3309
8. Windows - 2940
9. C - 2587
10. SQL Server - 1916
11. Basic - 1874
12. VB - 1670
13. HTML - 1317
14. DBA - 1198
15. DB2 - 1021
16. Perl - 979
17. Mainframe - 874
18. PL/SQL - 790
19. Linux - 781
20. WebSphere - 688
21. PHP - 647
22. Sybase - 645
23. WebLogic - 545
24. Cisco - 478
25. C# - 358
26. Apache - 244
27. JMS - 105
28. Informix - 101
29. Tomcat - 77
30. Delphi - 74
31. MySQL - 60
32. .NET - 17

http://www.theserverside.com/discussion/thread.jsp?thread_id=18821
http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?forum=61&thread=8513


some fast comments:

(1) i am rather surprised by the high UNIX and low Linux/Windows
(2) the apparent low demand for mysql is surprising.
(3) the apparent death in the .NET hype will hopefully give way to more
objective views on the advantages (and disadvantages) of c# and .NET

here's one guy (C. Thompson) who actually COUNTED by eye instead of
using a search engine:

-------------------------------------------------

My *very* unscientific random examination of Dice listings for
developers in the Silicon Valley seems to show about 9 jobs requiring
Java/J233 for each listing that wanted C# or .Net. By 'examination' of
the listings, I mean actually reading the text of individual listings.
That squares with what I have been hearing from colleagues around the
Bay Area. It seemed like there was a lot of interest in the .Net
framework about 2 years ago, I know I spent some time boning up on it
myself 2 years ago. Since then the buzz has died down quite a bit. I
think this is due to two things: 1) After trying out simple programs in
C#, people seemed to conclude it was *so* similar to Java, that one
could defer any learning time to when it might be truly needed, and 2)
the Java universe is just too rich to ignore, especially the Open Source
offerings. When you can download a component or framework for *free*,
with no purchase justifications, license hassles, etc. that's pretty
hard to beat. Being able to download multiple competing Java solutions
in an afternoon, keep the one you like and delete the rest, is just too
good a deal to walk away from.

---------------------------------------------------

 

[asj]

is it just me, or is that a ridiculously high number for "UNIX", and low
numbers for Linux/Windows?

 

[Guest]

First of all, you are using DICE. BAD. Very bad.

Why? cause DICE is full of easily threatened recruiters who have very little
skills to fall back on if they can't talk on the phone.

Next, DICE went bankrupt last year.

Second, if you call DICE and ask how much it costs to post a job, you are
requested to check back every week as the prices
change...translation...."they are barely making it"

I bet DICE is allowing recruiters to post more bogus jobs just to get
resumes and the sort. Also DICE is allowing recruiters to reset or somehow
repost their listings....

YOu can see 26k jobs, which is totally out of whack....fluctuates between
24k to 26k....it used to be around 18k

Using DICE is pure spitting into the wind.......YOu can't even compare
cities as one to two recruiting agencies can easily skew results. I seen
the exact same .NET job for over 6 months....complete lie..reposted over and
over again with some modifications.

 

[asj]

First of all, you are using DICE. BAD. Very bad.

yeah, but what does that have to do with the stats? such explanations
above would not explain the deviations seen in the stats.

and let it not be said that aguilar is not a persistent bugger...here's
more stats, this time from monster.com, which confirms trends:

* i'm surprised at how Perl fares in both cases...i thought perl was
passe already? LOL

http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?forum=61&thread=8503

Java = 3912
Servlet + Servlets = 3482
C++ = 2433
J2EE = 1515
Perl = 1306
JSP + Java Server Pages = 1139
C++ and Java = 1025 (42% of the jobs posted for C++ developers)
C# + C sharp = 700
ASP.Net + ASP .Net = 568
PHP = 505
VB.Net + VB .Net + Visual Basic.Net + Visual Basic .Net = 467
C# and Java = 205 (30% of the jobs posted for C# developers)
Visual Studio.Net + Visual Studio .Net = 143
Phyton = 95

 

[asj]

Hehe, but saying he counted it himself doesn't mean that it is a good
statistical representation for the global marketplace.
From which country was it?

Greetz,
-- Rob.

well, silicon valley is in the usa, but i believe there are rumors
california will secede from the union once Arnold
Schwarzenegger rises to power, and form the "People's Awesome Republic
of California".

 

[luke]

I've posted on this before, but I'm still not convinced you can get an
accurate picture unless you look at several separate independent
statistics. I also agree that .NET, and specially VB.NET, jobs should
increase over time, although I am not sure by how fast, and whether it
can keep up with the supply (although the lessening of the hype should
lessen the negative impact of this difference between demand and
supply).

This is also the first list I've seen where there are detailed
examples of databases and OS. Interesting, but I am also curious about
the large percentage of Unix references, instead of Linux or Windows.

 

[asj]

I've posted on this before, but I'm still not convinced you can get an
accurate picture unless you look at several separate independent
statistics. I also agree that .NET, and specially VB.NET, jobs should

well, i added the monster.com list in another post, which seems to
correlate well with the dice.com stats.

here's another one from germany (T. Lehne):

"Here are results from another source, www.gulp.de, which is a German
database for freelance projects."

Java - 77
C++ - 72
..Net - 13 (originally 16, but 3 were bad results)
DotNet - 1
Visual Basic - 29
VisualBasic - 9
VB - 8
C# - 4
Csharp - 0
J++ - 0
J# - 0

 

[asj]

I'm actually considering changing my career. Currently I'm a full time
programmer. I've been considering changing to a part time programmer
to continue supporting my current customer base, and take on some
recruiting work. Having spent time searching for jobs I get a little

i read once that once you reach upper 30s or 40s, you should move on to
a managerial type position or architect or something....programming is
for the young, maybe? only the young have the tenacity to stick at it
for long periods of time?

i too got tired of programming all the time...now i spend a lot of time
architecting on the server side (but i LOVE programming small devices,
which is all new to me still).

 

[john bailo]

"This list is picked up from dice.com on 11.04.2003.
"Numbers show job offerings in last 30 days with no other restrictions:

1. Java - 4355
2. J2EE - 4227
3. Unix - 4173
4. SQL - 3989

bottom line: dotnet failed to stop java

too old, too late, not enough

 

[asj]

Oh, I'd agree with that. Once you're at that point I'd say it's time to
move on. On my current contract I'm doing mostly pure project management,
but I'd have to say my favorite position has always been technical lead...
you get to control the 'shape' of the app and assign tasks, and can reserve
enough choice bits for yourself to keep your hand in.

well, i was sorting through some javablogs, and what do you know, i saw
this interesting post:

http://www.manageability.org/blog/stuff/do_you_want_to_be

"Tim Bray has a very insightful piece about the economics of being a
"Sharecropper". Unfortunately, he digresses and talks a lot about the
value of simplified interfaces."

"Strategically speaking a software product developer isn't in a good
position if he's a sharecropper. However, it doesn't mean it's a bad
tactic. Many times its the only way to get a start. Not everyone has
the money to buy a farm when they start out. The key though is to
remember as a sharecropper you're working on borrowed time."

 

[Adam Maass]

well, silicon valley is in the usa, but i believe there are rumors
california will secede from the union once Arnold
Schwarzenegger rises to power, and form the "People's Awesome Republic
of California".

Political commentary recently (jokingly) suggested that the Bay Area seceed
from the US and join Canada.

-- Adam Maass

 

[Tim Tyler]

: bottom line: dotnet failed to stop java

: too old, too late, not enough

Microsoft aren't out of the race yet.

They still have a lot of power associated with Windows - and a lot of cash.

 

[Tim Tyler]

: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:44:32 +0000, Tim Tyler wrote:

:> : bottom line: dotnet failed to stop java
:>
:> : too old, too late, not enough
:>
:> Microsoft aren't out of the race yet.
:>
:> They still have a lot of power associated with Windows - and a lot of cash.

: not any more, basically the current microsoft strategy is:

: 0. Admit defeat as far as growing market share
: 1. Increase licensing fees on existing, locked in customers
: 2. Pay for FUD to discredit Linux ( SCO, Ballmer )
: 3. Extract as much revenue legally via 'dividends' (the majority of which
: go to the 6 or so people who own it )
: 4. Close shop in 3 years.

Ha - would that it were so.

As it is your sooth-saying role might gain credibililty if it was a bit
more realistic.

 

[john bailo]

: bottom line: dotnet failed to stop java

: too old, too late, not enough

Microsoft aren't out of the race yet.

They still have a lot of power associated with Windows - and a lot of cash.

not any more, basically the current microsoft strategy is:

0. Admit defeat as far as growing market share
1. Increase licensing fees on existing, locked in customers
2. Pay for FUD to discredit Linux ( SCO, Ballmer )
3. Extract as much revenue legally via 'dividends' (the majority of which
go to the 6 or so people who own it )
4. Close shop in 3 years.

 

[asj]

Microsoft aren't out of the race yet.

They still have a lot of power associated with Windows - and a lot of cash.

i doubt they will ever be out of the "race"....but i am VERY impressed
with the way its monopoly power has not been extended significantly
beyond the desktop - there actually might be some hope yet for market
competition. what we can hope for is what basically happened to other
monopolies in past...their cash cows were either superceded or made less
relevant than they are now (barring another govt intervention - pretty
unlikely under a republican admin).

i think a lot of other companies know this, which is why they keep
spouting that the PC is less relevant today, now that computing power
has migrated to even small consumer devices.

 

[Guest]

You obviously didn't read the post carefully.

One recruiting group whether on Monster, DICE, Hotjobs or all of them can
easily skew, taint, mislead all your results.

In fact, if the "WORD IS OUT" amount the recruiting groups that this jobs
pays more, WHEN in FACT it doesn't AND NO JOBS really EXIST in the FIRST
PLACE, these same recruiters will constantly POST AGAIN AND AGAIN.....WHY?
BECAUSE all they see are $$$$$ in their eyes that can pay their rent with a
single JOB filled, pack rats, ...

DO YOU UNDERSTAND how the recruiter/slave driver system works?

JOBS STATS on HotJobs, DICE, Monster ARE IRRELEVANT in a OCEAN of LIARS....

Basically ALL Recuiters ARE SCUM, OK?

YOu don't know how much they make for just talking on the phone......do you
see how that works? And neither do they want you to!

If programmers like you don't WAKE up and see this, then maybe their jobs do
need to be shipped to India.

Ask a recruiter one question, "What is your rate on top of my rate?" or
"what is your overhead?" SEE IF YOU GET an ANSWER other than,
"confidential" or some silly nonsense.....

Whatever answer you get, POST IT HERE and I will decipher it for you.

 

[asj]

sorry, but your post actually is the one that makes no sense.
(1) these results have been fairly consistent across months and across
several job banks.
(2) similar results have been found even in foreign job banks.

a more important question is one that has been mentioned in another
thread:

--------------------------------------

I can't quite figure out what these statistics are supposed to show.

Are they supposed to tell people that there is lots of Java jobs around?
Well, there are.

Then the obvious question is: in this economy, why aren't they being
filled? Is Java too hard to learn? Do Java employers just not pay
enough? What's the reason?

<snip>

So, what do you think those numbers actually say about Java?

- US
-----------------------------------------

Uwe agreed that there are plenty of java jobs, thats obvious. But he was
asking deeper questions than that and how to interpret.

If there are 3000 java jobs last month and there are 3000 java jobs this
month, what does this mean?

Are they mostly the same 3000 jobs? If so are employers not finding
enough qualified Java developers? If thats true then why are there not
that many Java developers? Are there not enough developers getting
trained in Java? Why would that be? Is Java too complex to learn? Are
companies not investing training into Java? Are developers not investing
their own time and money into Java? etc.....

If they are mostly different 3000 jobs from last month, then does that
mean the minimum throughput for the month is 3000 jobs for java? You
can't tell at all because you don't know how many were actually filled.

Intuitively we know Java is the major technology out there. But taking a
snapshot of some numbers proves really nothing. It tells nothing of how
many jobs actually got filled in a months time in any of the
technologies. I will give you my real example, I was at home 2 years ago
and went to Monster.com, saw nothing, hit refreshed immediately after
that, a new job appeared that was a perfect, I immediately attached my
resume. Within 10 minutes I got a call from that person, and the job
posting on Monster was gone, at least within the hour of original
posting. They employment agency was so flooded with resumes they took
the job down after a short time. How many jobs like this go unnoticed
between snapshots?

- JD

----------------------------------------------

Good lord man, you really know how to spin the numbers.

The number of jobs posted in monster is an indication of the
demand/supply of a skill relative to another skill. So, if you go to
monster and take a period of 7 days, search for Java and then for C#,
you'll notice that for that period there's 7 time more jobs for Java.

In short there are 7 times more jobs that require java that have not
been filled. As far as the true number of jobs, well you have to look at
other surveys. But rest assured, if you Java skills the likelihood of
you getting a job versus C# skill is 7 to 1. Simple as that.

The logic you're proposing is that C# jobs get filled faster, let's
assume that's true. That would mean the supply for C# programmers is
greater. That implies more competition and therefore lower salaries.
Basic economics.

- CEP

 

[john bailo]

The logic you're proposing is that C# jobs get filled faster, let's
assume that's true. That would mean the supply for C# programmers is
greater. That implies more competition and therefore lower salaries.
Basic economics.

he seems to be arguing velocity or throughput as well as warehousing.

that is, say there are 100 companies and each of them have a java job.
so say there are 20 unemployed java programmers who each look at the want
ads every other day. on the first day, 10 java programmers would see
the 100 jobs and apply. that would leave 90 jobs and 10 programmers.

BUT-- suppose every day 10 new companies post jobs and 10 java programmers
start seeking work, or come off contract. so it would appear that there
is a constant 100 jobs available.

However, to the appearance of the companies that found java programmers
on the first day it would seem that there are plenty of java programmers.
For the companies that continue to run their ads, it would seem as if
there aren't enough. and since only 10% of the companies found a java
programmer and 90%, it would be safe to say there aren't enough java
programmers.

what can i say except, i'm glad my boss just gave me a project with
JavaBeans (on Linux )

 

[Guest]

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG...
ENRON, ENRON, ENRON, ENRON.....

For some reason, just because you see a Job Posting, you think it's a REAL
Job Posting

Did you ever hear of FAKE Job POSTINGS? Recruiters DO LIE you know.

REAL != FAKE


Just because a 100 million people get an e-mail from a company doesn't mean
that this company is Fortune 500 company...did you ever hear of SPAM?

How about SPAM posting?

Your problem is you DON'T see the OTHER SIDE of the RECRUITING world...

Does the word, ENRON, ring a BELL?

 

[asj]

that's a very good point,
recruiters put all kinds of junk out there to get candidates, most times
with no tangible job in the back. i should know, i was out of a job for 7
months. they just want to chat, see what kind of fish they caught because
'we might have something along your lines coming up in the very near
future'.

except of course none of his points addresses the fact that there seems
be a hell lot more java jobs than anything out there.

the question is, why? is it because companies bought a lot of java stuff
during the dotcom days and now need people to maintain the things, OR
are we still seeing lots of new projects? with the economy the way it
is, i'll bet ya it's the former.