Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

[DanS]

grip.

DanS is invited to put forth some technical numbers. Those who
disagree post insults as technical proof. Where does the cadre of
nay-sayers post manufacturer numerical specifications for each type of
transient? They do not because those numbers - those technical facts
- do not exist.

Most damning is Leythos who ignores all those undamaged and
unprotected appliances to proclaim his few surge protectors did
something useful. Leythos uses 'selective data sampling'
apparently because he has 'invisible' protectors.

An informed person does not care what is under their skin. An
informed person has numbers, facts, industry professional citations,
etc to prove a point. So where are numbers from a UPS manufacturer
that define protection from a typically destructive transient? Those
numbers do not exist. DanS, et al never provide those numbers.
Leythos spins 'selective sampling' to prove his myth. Where is the
dedicated earthing wire necessary for effective protection? That
earthing wire does not exist for plug-in solutions. Damning facts.

<SNIPPED blah...blah....blah>

And you choose to ignore that devices protected survive while some
unprotected devices do not. (Again, claiming they are proteced by the
invisible surge supressors placed by the surge suppressor fairies.)

At this point though, I am definately not going to reply to you again,
and should have stopped days ago.

I am just pointing out a couple of things one last time.....

1) I NEVER RECOMMENDED ANY TYPE OF SURGE SUPPRESSION OVER WHOLE HOUSE
PROTECTION, YOU ARE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT WHOLE HOUSE PROTECTION INTO THE
DISCUSSION.

2) WHILE THEORY IS GREAT, IT IS ONLY THEORY.

3) YOU CAN NOT CHOOSE TO IGNORE REAL-WORLD RESULTS JUST BECAUSE THEY
DON'T JIVE WITH THEORY, TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

4) YOU HAVE BEEN HAVING THIS SAME ARGUMENT WITH HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE OVER A
FIVE YEAR SPAN ON USENET, DON'T YOU THINK IT'S TIME TO GIVE IT UP. MANY
PEOPLE IN OTHER GROUPS, FROM WHAT I HAVE READ IN SOME OF THOSE THREADS,
DETEST *ANY* QUESTIONS ABOUT SUGRE SUPPRESSION FROM ANYONE, FOR FEAR YOU
WILL CHIME IN ON THE THREAD. THAT SAYS IT ALL.

Good Night Gracie........

 

[Leythos]

Most damning is Leythos who ignores all those undamaged and
unprotected appliances to proclaim his few surge protectors did
something useful. Leythos uses 'selective data sampling'
apparently because he has 'invisible' protectors.

Most damning is your refusal to explain why ALL DEVICES PROTECTED REMAIN
UNDAMAGED, while many devices that are unprotected are Damaged.

In every case where I've seen damaged devices, where there were also
properly installed UPS devices (and some that were not properly
installed), the protected devices remained COMPLETELY UNDAMAGED.

Now, please explain the above - nothing less, nothing more.

 

[bud--]

Second, cut power cord short and connect it to AC receptacle on
breaker box.

Bizarre idea of the month.

One reason is because the power
strip protector is typically so undersized (and yet costs so much
money).

Plug-in suppressors are available in ratings from junk to very high.
You pay for what you get (but are available at reasonable ratings
relatively cheaply).

Bud promotes plug-in protector manufacturers.

Quoting w_: "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be
challenged technically, then attack the messenger."

Therefore he will avoid
some facts. His 'recommendation' is really a technical discussion
of how different protectors can and fail to protect. Recommendations,
instead, are found in standards.

I base arguments on the IEEE and NIST guides. You have to be stupid to
say the guides, intended for the general public, would waste a lot of
space on "technical discussion'" about a device the guides don't
recommend.

Bud will not challenge that blunt
IEEE statement from the Red Book:

You also have to be stupid to say the IEEE guide would conflict with
the IEEE color books.

Earthing is the protection. Therefore each protected and incoming
utility wire makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to same earth
ground.

Your religious views on earthing are not shared by the IEEE or NIST.
Plug-in surge suppressors, as described clearly in the IEEE guide, work
primarily by clamping the voltages on all wires (power and signal) to
the common ground at the surge suppressor, not by earthing.

Finally, as a ham, then appreciate this figure from industry
professionals:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

w_ has a fetish about 200+ ft lightning rods, aka tower antennas. The
rest of us do not expect our equipment to survive a direct lightning
hit to our house.

The IEEE and NIST guides clearly say that plug-in suppressors are
effective.
Links to sites that say plug-in suppressors are effective: 2
Your links to sites that say plug-in suppressors are not effective: 0

 

[w_tom]

w_ has a fetish about 200+ ft lightning rods, aka tower antennas. The
rest of us do not expect our equipment to survive a direct lightning
hit to our house.

AC electric wires above the street are 'antennas' connected directly
to every AC appliance inside a house. What is struck more often?
Highest wires connect lightning directly to household electronics. We
expect lightning to strike that wire - a direct strike to the house -
resulting in zero appliance damage. Lightning striking that wire is a
direct strike to AC appliances IF surge is not properly earthed by one
well proven 'whole house' protector.

Bud does "not expect our equipment to survive a direct lightning
strike" because Bud recommends plug-in protectors with no earthing.
Direct lightning strikes to household appliances means equipment still
survives. It means protection inside all appliances is not
overwhelmed. No damage from direct lightning strikes was proven about
25 times annually atop the Empire State Building even in the 1930.
Technology has been that well proven for that long.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which plug-in
solutions must ignore to sell grossly undersized and overpriced plug-in
protectors. No wonder plug-in protectors avoid earthing discussions.
Names such APC, Tripplite, Isobar, Belkin, and Monster Cable were not
in that list of responsible protector manufacturers. How do you know?
Where is their dedicated earthing wire? Earthing wire does not exist
on ineffective protectors.

Direct lightning strikes to household appliances via something
similar to an antenna (utility wires) means no damage if one properly
earthing 'whole house' protector is installed. That's one dollar per
protected appliance verses $25 or $100 per appliance for ineffective
plug-in solutions. Learn from the industry professional at:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

No earth ground means no effective protection. Necessary for DSL
modems. Telco installs a properly earthed 'whole house' protector on
phone lines - for free. But homeowner must install same on AC electric
to protect a DSL modem - and computer.

 

[John John]

AC electric wires above the street are 'antennas' connected directly
to every AC appliance inside a house. What is struck more often?
Highest wires connect lightning directly to household electronics. We
expect lightning to strike that wire - a direct strike to the house -
resulting in zero appliance damage. Lightning striking that wire is a
direct strike to AC appliances IF surge is not properly earthed by one
well proven 'whole house' protector.

Bud does "not expect our equipment to survive a direct lightning
strike" because Bud recommends plug-in protectors with no earthing.
Direct lightning strikes to household appliances means equipment still
survives. It means protection inside all appliances is not
overwhelmed. No damage from direct lightning strikes was proven about
25 times annually atop the Empire State Building even in the 1930.
Technology has been that well proven for that long.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which plug-in
solutions must ignore to sell grossly undersized and overpriced plug-in
protectors. No wonder plug-in protectors avoid earthing discussions.
Names such APC, Tripplite, Isobar, Belkin, and Monster Cable were not
in that list of responsible protector manufacturers. How do you know?
Where is their dedicated earthing wire? Earthing wire does not exist
on ineffective protectors.

Direct lightning strikes to household appliances via something
similar to an antenna (utility wires) means no damage if one properly
earthing 'whole house' protector is installed. That's one dollar per
protected appliance verses $25 or $100 per appliance for ineffective
plug-in solutions. Learn from the industry professional at:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

No earth ground means no effective protection. Necessary for DSL
modems. Telco installs a properly earthed 'whole house' protector on
phone lines - for free. But homeowner must install same on AC electric
to protect a DSL modem - and computer.

You dumb cluck. Every house is grounded at the entrance (meter) plus
every power pole has a ground discharge, a copper wire running the
length of the pole into the ground. Where do you live, in Antartica or
what?

John

 

[w_tom]

You dumb cluck. Every house is grounded at the entrance (meter) plus
every power pole has a ground discharge, a copper wire running the
length of the pole into the ground. ...

Well John John - is your house earthed per post 1990 National
Electrical Code requirements? Many are not even though you insist
otherwise.. Others are missing even a 'no longer sufficient' earthing
to water pipe. Apparently you did not bother to read previous posts
and did not grasp the technicals. Most homes are not earthed as that
industry professional figure demonstrates. Apparently you magically
knew otherwise without first reading what you replied to.

For surge protection, earthing must meet .... and exceed ... post
1990 code requirements. That means every wire in every cable must
connect to earth as defined earlier. Don't bother replying to that
last sentence until learning details of 'connect to earth'. It is
intentionally vague since details were posted previously. Even that
telephone pole earth ground was defined in prevous posts that you never
read.

Next time, John John, you might want to first read before replying;
also learn about concepts such as wire impedance. Wire impedance is
why 'secondary' protection should be earthed 'less than 10 feet'. You
even assume that earthing still exists - is intact? Too many say the
lights work; therefore earthing is OK. Only visual inspection can
confirm that earthing exists - as prevously posted pictures
demonstrated. Learn before jumping to insult. It suggests how
inexperienced you still are.

No earth ground means no effective protection. Learn about primary
and secondary protection systems defined earlier.

 

[John John]

I don't know what the electrical code is in your country but in this
country no earthing = no power. It's a must.

John

 

[John John]

My house was built in 1977 and even then the power company would not
have connected without earthing at the meter. In this country we have
long ago abandoned knob and tube wiring...

John

 

[bud--]

to every AC appliance inside a house. What is struck more often?
Highest wires connect lightning directly to household electronics. We
expect lightning to strike that wire - a direct strike to the house -
resulting in zero appliance damage. Lightning striking that wire is a
direct strike to AC appliances IF surge is not properly earthed by one
well proven 'whole house' protector.

In addition to the comments of John John
- a lightning rod, aka tower antenna, is far higher than the
distribution wires near a house; a tower antenna is FAR more likely to
be hit by lightning
- a direct strike to a house, equivalent to a hit to an adjacent tower
antenna, is VERY unlikely
- distribution wires, which are mounted highest on power poles in
neighborhoods, are likely to have lightning arresters, and surges will
have to pass thorough power transformers
- a hit to distribution wires has significant impedance (you are fond
of impedance) to my house - the further away the hit the higher
impedance - which greatly reduces the surge intensity
- in addition, a hit to distribution wires is divided by all multiple
paths to ground
- if the secondary wires behind my house (or even the service drop to
my house) is hit, the surge is divided between my house, and grounding
through the transformer and all other users on that transformer; it
will also be divided if it comes through the transformer

So no, I don't think your fetish with tower antennas is particularly
relevant to houses.

Bud does "not expect our equipment to survive a direct lightning
strike" because Bud recommends plug-in protectors with no earthing.

I don't remember posts from anyone who thought their house would
survive a direct lightning hit

No damage from direct lightning strikes was proven about
25 times annually atop the Empire State Building even in the 1930.
Technology has been that well proven for that long.

A stupid comparison. The Empire State Building has a steel frame which
is highly conductive because of large metal cross section and multiple
paths. Like sitting in a car that is hit by lightning.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which plug-in
solutions must ignore

Your religious views about earthing are still not shared by the IEEE
and NIST. Plug-in surge suppressors still work primarily by clamping,
not earthing.

No earth ground means no effective protection.

And the required statement of religious belief again.

The IEEE and NIST guides clearly say that plug-in suppressors are
effective.
Links to sites that say plug-in suppressors are effective: 2
Your links to sites that say plug-in suppressors are not effective: 0
You are alone on this.

 

[w_tom]

My house was built in 1977 and even then the power company would not
have connected without earthing at the meter. In this country we have
long ago abandoned knob and tube wiring...

And that requirement is sufficient only for human safety. Power
company cares not whether your appliances have any protection - or are
even damaged every year. They are only concerned about earthing for
human safety.

Chances are your earthing is not sufficient for transistor safety.
Did you read many posts and technical reasons for enhanced earthing?
Most 1977 homes have earthing woefully insufficient for transistorized
appliances AND have virtually no 'whole house' appliance protection.
Does you telephone service have properly earthing protection - that was
only introduced in the mid 1980s? Again, those many older telephone
installations were only earthed for human safety - not for today's
phones. Did you learn from previous posts to discover if your earthing
is sufficient? Or did you just know and therefore post disparagement
accordingly?

Chances are that a house built in 1977 needs its earthing for all
utilities upgraded. Chances are your earthing is the equivalent of
knob and tube wiring. Did you read those posts or just *assume* 1977
earthing will always be sufficient? You have much learning to do.

 

[John John]

Are you a licenced electrician? What do you know about your local or
national electrical code?

John

 

[Pop`]

Please don't feed the trolls.

 

[w_tom]

Are you a licenced electrician? What do you know about your local
or national electrical code?

John - visit a library to read NEC. Unlike Pops, I do not post
insults as if facts. Instead, provided are numbers, facts, concepts,
and citations. In your case, start with Articles 250 and 800 of the
National Electrical Code. Especially comprehend sections 250.52,
250.53, 800.30, 800.31, and 800.40. Also applicable are equivalent
code requirements in Articles 810 and 820. Those are basic (starting)
requirements.

Then ask yourself why this reply is without Rush Limbaugh insults;
includes specific code citations. How do I know this?

Appreciate that electricians learn what code requires. Others learn
more such as why code demands those requirements and what enhancements
are required beyond code.

That previous citation from an industry professional demonstrates
concepts beyond what code demands:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf
Another industry benchmark is:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_ptd_home.aspx
Even British Standard BS6651 discusses these concepts. Another
inspection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
1977 residential earthing is typically insufficient. Maybe Pops will
explain why those requirements. Safest bet is that Pop, like so many
who post as he has, cannot even cite or quote a relevant NEC article.

Orange County FL has significant transistor threats. Orange County
emergency response system required better protection. Just like your
telco switching center (CO), instead, the center needs effective
protection. Protection system was upgraded. Did they install plug-in
protectors? Of course not. They needed effective solutions: enhanced
building earthing - the essential single point earth ground. Those in
this newsgroup promoting for plug-in protector manufacturers hope you
don't learn this:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

Every incoming wire, be it from an antenna or utility wires above or
beneath street - each wire is a direct and potentially destructive
connection into appliances. Every wire in every cable must connect
short to same earthing electrode. Again, this is old and well proven
technology that plug-in protector promoters here hope you never learn.

Electricians know what is required for human safety. Transistor
protection system only starts by meeting post 1990 code.

Your home is only 1977 earthing? Then an inspection is necessary.
That earthing may need be enhanced from human safety to include
transistor safety. Enhancements usually cost little money. A 'whole
house' protector (as sold in electrical supply houses, Lowes, or Home
Depot) is recommended. Little money. Significant protection.

Appreciate why an earthing wire also need be short as possible -
'less than 10 feet'. Nothing is new here. Pre-1930 technology was
made necessary by transistors. Same protection even is required for a
DSL modem.

 

[Gordon]

NOTHING

And your question is?

 

[Pop`]

PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!