i960 @ Best Buy; An Ink scam?

[Bernard R. Buraczenski]

Hi All,

I just got an i960 (I love it so far) from a local Best Buy and thought I'd
give you a head's up on what I took as a little 'scam" they are trying to
pull. When I told the sales clerk I wanted the printer she started grabbing
ink cartridges of the rack and said I would need all six since the ones in
the box "were not full". To paraphrase: "They run a bunch of tests after the
cartridges are installed so they are only good for 15 or 16 copies, so
you'll need new ones".

I thought a minute (not to quick these days) and decided that since I hadn't
read anything about this in my extensive research of the printer, I'd take a
chance, and sure enough, the box contained a complete set of new, unopened,
apparently full cartridges.

I know these places make their money on ink, paper, etc. but come on, this
was just plain old lying.

P_

Patrick Gault
(e-mail address removed)
(e-mail address removed)

"My mandate also includes weird bugs" Calvin

Yes, it was a gross misrepresentation of the truth.

I happen to work at a Best Buy (not in computers) and the managers tell the
employees of the computer department to try and sell extra ink cartridges
when the printer goes out the door. They are also instructed to ry and sell
paper, battery packs, cables etc. There is so little margin in hardware that
the other stuff makes for a little profit.

Now, the line that the cartridges were not full is a partially true. Some of
the printer companies - HP in particular- pack cartrisdges that are only
filled to 50% of capacity with a new printer. It is pretty frustrating to a
consumer when their cartridge runs out in the middle of a project.

That having bneen written, she shouldn't have given you that line. It makes
people wonder if Best Buy is a reputable outfit.

 

[Patrick Gault]

Hi All,

I just got an i960 (I love it so far) from a local Best Buy and thought I'd
give you a head's up on what I took as a little 'scam" they are trying to
pull. When I told the sales clerk I wanted the printer she started grabbing
ink cartridges of the rack and said I would need all six since the ones in
the box "were not full". To paraphrase: "They run a bunch of tests after the
cartridges are installed so they are only good for 15 or 16 copies, so
you'll need new ones".

I thought a minute (not to quick these days) and decided that since I hadn't
read anything about this in my extensive research of the printer, I'd take a
chance, and sure enough, the box contained a complete set of new, unopened,
apparently full cartridges.

I know these places make their money on ink, paper, etc. but come on, this
was just plain old lying.

P_

Patrick Gault
(e-mail address removed)
(e-mail address removed)

"My mandate also includes weird bugs" Calvin

 

[John]

Now, the line that the cartridges were not full is a partially true. Some of
the printer companies - HP in particular- pack cartrisdges that are only
filled to 50% of capacity with a new printer. It is pretty frustrating to a
consumer when their cartridge runs out in the middle of a project.

Can anyone substantiate this claim that HP packs half-empty cartridges with
thei inkjet printers?

All HP printers I've opened come with cartridges in individually sealed, new
packages.

I don't think the writer knows what he's talkikng about.

 

[Charlie]

Can anyone substantiate this claim that HP packs half-empty cartridges with
thei inkjet printers?

I think the idea comes from the laserjet toner cartridges, which IIRC
clearly state that a starter cartridge is supplied with the printer. I
don't remember seeing that on the last laserjet I bought, but it seems
it did say smomething like that on one I bought several years ago.

All HP printers I've opened come with cartridges in individually sealed, new
packages.

I don't think the writer knows what he's talkikng about.

Charlie Hoffpauir
[STOP THE GRAND PARKWAY]
http://members.manvel.net/charlieh/

 

[Gary Tait]

Can anyone substantiate this claim that HP packs half-empty cartridges with
thei inkjet printers?

All HP printers I've opened come with cartridges in individually sealed, new
packages.

But the cartridges are either partially filled, or lower capacity.

 

[xNokia3390x]

But the cartridges are either partially filled, or lower capacity.

The Photosmart 7350 I bought had three, full capacity cartridges included.
A 19ml #56 black, a 17ml #57 color, and a 17ml #58 photo. The DeskJet 930c
I bought, however, had only a full #78 color (19ml) and a "starter" #45
black (21ml; regular is 42ml). That last printer I bought was a Canon i320,
and it also had full cartridges. I know laser printers these days almost
always come with "starter" toners.

 

[Innealtoir]

I bought my HP 722c years ago. The cartridges were about half-full. But, they
had different serial numbers.. My later purchase of regular HP cartridges
showed they contained about 2x the ink of the starter cartridges. I was fooled
once. Never again.
My CANON i850 came with full, double sealed tanks. My hp color tanks always
ran out of yellow first. Neat trick, huh. That and 90 day warranties keep me
from considering any new HP equipment. Their extensive advertising in Sunday
paper supplements keeps them going.
I bought my i850 at BEST BUY. They were the only local vendor to carry it.
The salesperson told me the printer head was already preinstalled!!! It
wasn't.

 

[Mr 645]

<<<Can anyone substantiate this claim that HP packs half-empty cartridges with
thei inkjet printers?>>>

Yes, HP and Lexmark offer two capacities for their inks. Regular and
hi-capacity. or as I read, full and 1/2 full since they are the same size
physically.
http://www.jonlayephotography.com

 

[Andrew Rossmann]

Can anyone substantiate this claim that HP packs half-empty cartridges with
thei inkjet printers?

All HP printers I've opened come with cartridges in individually sealed, new
packages.

I don't think the writer knows what he's talkikng about.

It depends on the model. I think the newer HP's with the 55/56/57/58
only come in one size.

The older 45/78 do come in two sizes. Printers usually came with a 45G,
which was about 21ml. The normal 45A is 42ml. I don't even know if you
could buy a 45G. The printers also came with a 78D, which is 19ml. This is
also the version you usually find. The large capacity 78A (38ml) is harder
to find. Older printers used a #23 for color. I think there is/was a 23G,
which had half the ink of the 23D. I think there even used to be 23A with
a bit more ink than the 23D, but it was dropped.

HP also makes a #15, which is essentially the same as a 45, but contains
25ml of ink. It uses a different ID code than the 45, so printers designed
for it will NOT work with the 45. The #15 costs about the same, or
sometimes even more, than the cost of a 45A.

Finally, the #17, similar to the #15, is a low-capacity version of the #
23 with a unique ID code.

With the newer printers, HP seems to have gotten smart and just make
tiny cartridges only.

 

[John]

Now, the line that the cartridges were not full is a partially true. Some of
the printer companies - HP in particular- pack cartrisdges that are only
filled to 50% of capacity with a new printer. It is pretty frustrating to a
consumer when their cartridge runs out in the middle of a project.

In my earlier response, I said " I don't think the writer knows what he's
talking about." Then some others pointed me to information supporting
Bernard's statement.

My apologies.

Reading the articles about the court cases against HP, I realized I had
even bought one of the culprit printers (the HP842C) for my son in December
2000.

- I was aware that HP held a patent on its printhead, and therefore, on its
ink cartridge. But I was also aware that one could obtain recycled
cartdridges and refill kits which would work well. (I know. I have refilled
other HP cartridges. And I've bought recycled cartridges).

- I was aware the HP842C came with the #15 (21 ml) cartridge.

- I was not aware that the #15 cartridge can't be replaced with the #45 (42
ml) cartridge. That makes me angry.

But now I read the good One can refill the #15 cartridge with 42 ml of
ink.

Also, one can actually use the #45 cartridge as a replacement by taping over
one of the printhead electrical contact. (See
http://pcbuyersguide.com/hardware/printers/HP_ink_scam.html

To me, this is an interesting part of the inkjet saga. In the mid-1980's,
Hewlett-Packard did some amazing stuff taking Canon's bubblejet invention
and gaining control of the personal printer market. Their designs
significantly reduced printer power consumption, parts complexity, noise
level, and increased reliability, paper handling perfomance. I had one Canon
bubblejet model, but I otherwise stuck with HP until Canon introduced their
new multiple cartridge (e.g i550) models. I now have a strong distaste for
HP. They want to control what should be a commodity market for paper and ink
. They won't control me.

 

[abuse]

To me, this is an interesting part of the inkjet saga. In the mid-1980's,
Hewlett-Packard did some amazing stuff taking Canon's bubblejet invention
and gaining control of the personal printer market. Their designs
significantly reduced printer power consumption, parts complexity, noise
level, and increased reliability, paper handling perfomance.

This was back on the tail end of when HP actually made things
worth owning, when quality of engineering really meant something
and was taken very seriously by them.

These days they are not even close to the same kind of company.
Profits and keeping the stock pumped up are all that matter now.

Billy Y..

 

[Tech Support]

There has never been a case with inkjet printers
where the cartridges supplied with the printer are
not filled to the same capacity as those sold off the shelf.

In the case of HP they simply started offering versions
of cartridges they originally called economy style, which
contained less ink. These were intended for use in printers
with lower print demands (or for customers with lower print demands)
so that the cartridges would function properly from install to end of ink
without "drying out". These where originally referred to as "G" cartridges
(as opposed to the higher capacity filled "A" cartridges). When HP converted
over to shorter codes (#25, #26, #29, #41, #45, #49) the process of
indentifying lower capacity cartridges became more difficult. Here is a
short list of various "commonly found" (as in found in your local superstore
common) HP DESKJET style (I did not include business printer style or large
format) cartridges and their estimated capacities:

#15 - 21 mL (looks like a #45)
#17 - 15 mL (looks like a #23, #41, and #78)
#20 - 21 mL (looks like a #29)
#23 - 30 mL (looks like a #17, #41, and #78)
#25 - 19.5 mL
#26 - 40 mL
#27 - 10 mL (looks like a #56)
#28 - 8 mL (looks like a #57)
#29 - 40 mL (looks like a #20)
#33 - 30 mL (looks like a #26)
#34 - 17 mL (looks like a #56)
#35 - 17 mL (looks like a #57)
#41 - 39 mL (looks like a #17, #28, and #78)
#45 - 42 mL (looks like a #15)
#49 - 22.8 mL
#56 - 19 mL (looks like a #27)
#57 - 17 mL (looks like a #28)
#58 - 17 mL
#59 - 17 mL
#78DN - 19 mL
#78AN - 38 mL

Some printers are intended to only be used with lower capacity cartridges,
these are mostly low volume printers and they usually include the low volume
cartridges in the initial package.

So in effect, no one is getting ripped off, they are simply getting what
they paid for. A little research at the HP website will provide the above
volumes as a part of the descriptions for each cartridge. A diligent
researcher can be properly informed about the cartridges.

In the case of the now popular #56, #57 cartridges. Some printers that use
the #27 and #28 cartridges can also use the higher capacity #56 and #57
cartridges. The reverse may also be true.

The #15 and #45 cartridges are interchangeable in some (but not all, I
think) Deskjets that use the #45 cartridges standard. A big complaint that
some have had is that the reverse is not true #45 carts can't be used in
printers which have the #15 as its primary black.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
John Mills
WeInk, LLC
http://www.weink.com
Beat the high cost of printing with
Camel Continuous Re-Inking System
_____________________________

 

[John]

There has never been a case with inkjet printers
where the cartridges supplied with the printer are
not filled to the same capacity as those sold off the shelf.

In the case of HP they simply started offering versions
of cartridges they originally called economy style, which
contained less ink.

You seem to be missing the point.

Once you look at the cartridge prices, the "economy" cartridges are anything
but economical except perhaps for my mother-in-law who prints something
about once a month.

HP says they no longer manufacture printers with the "economy" cartridges.
However, many people, including first-time computer owners, students, moms
and dads are stuck with "economy" printers that cost a bundle to operate.

In the NC court case in September, Bob Cooper, representing Hewlett-Packard,
told jurors that HP was simply responding to market competition by
drastically lowering the prices of its printers and including economy
cartridges in the printer's box.

The 712C printer sold for $249 when it was introduced, and a year later,
Hewlett-Packard had reduced the price to $127, attorney Bob Cooper said. "At
the same time as HP cut the price of these printers so dramatically, HP
began to introduce lower-priced cartridges," he said.

Some consumers, who did not use their printers frequently, liked the
lower-priced cartridges that contained less ink, he said. After several
years, however, Hewlett-Packard discontinued selling the economy cartridges
because they didn't sell as well as the other cartridges and stores didn't
like to waste shelf space on them, Cooper added.

Hewlett-Packard hoped to offset the lost revenue from the reduced price of
the printers by using the economy cartridges, Cooper said.
"When you boil all this down, Mr. Hughes (the plaintif) is complaining about
the wording of the contents list of the box, which contained the printer
that he bought," Cooper said.

 

[susie]

What absolute rubbish!
the cartridges withe the 948c
are only half full I know I've bought one

 

[Jerry Schwartz]

Before digital photography, the average person didn't use color much; even
though I have had scanners for decades, I rarely printed what I scanned
because the quality wasn't that great. I threw away more color ink than I
used, sometimes, because the cartridges would just dry out from lack of use.
I would have happily bought smaller-capacity cartridges for 2/3 the price,
those pups were $40 or so.

I had a laser printer that did most of my printing - in B&W.

There was a transition period during which more people were printing in
color, and were using the "occasional color" type of printer to do it. Those
folks were ill-served by the smaller-capacity cartridges.

These days, digital photography is common and the half-filled cartridges are
(I think) a thing of the past.

However, anyone working in retail is hammered to "accessorize" every sale.
Let the customer escape too often without extra cartridges, paper, cables,
batteries, earrings, earmuffs, shoelaces, human-hair hubcaps, and French
fries can get you fired.

--

Jerry Schwartz
FidoNet 1:142/928
http://www.writebynight.com


....

 

[Bob Headrick]

[snip]

#15 - 21 mL (looks like a #45)

Was originally 21mL but for the last few years has been 25mL

#41 - 39 mL (looks like a #17, #28, and #78)

Looks like a #17, #23 and #78. b

#78DN - 19 mL
#78AN - 38 mL

The "N" part here indicates North America. Other regions will have different
letters here - E for Europe, etc.

While some cartridges may look alike, the electronics may be very different.
For example, the 41, 23, 17 and 78 cartridges look the same (to the casual
observer) but the 78 has more than twice as many nozzles, operates at different
voltages and frequencies than any of the others for example. The 23 and 17 are
the most similar, and some printers designed for the 23 will accept the 17 but
generally not vice versa. Putting a cartridge in a printer made for the wrong
cartridge may damage the cartridge - for an example, putting a 23 or 17
cartridge in a printer designed for a 78 or 41 cartridge will likely damage
the cartridge.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP

 

[Larry]

Man, you are SO right!

My first introduction to HP was in the Navy starting in 1980. The Navy back
then (possibly still now) tended to use HP Electronic Test Equipment
(O-Scopes, Differential Volt Meters, etc...) and the things were built like
tanks.

Same for their printers in the 80's and early 90's.

Now days, the stuff seems to need constant attention of some sort. Don't
even get me started on the Jam-O-Matic 4000 series LaserJets.

-Larry

 

[Matt]

What absolute rubbish!
the cartridges withe the 948c
are only half full I know I've bought one

Epson does the same thing--and I'm not sure they're even half full. I
assume these can be filled to full capacity, however.

 

[Mr 645]

<<<Epson does the same thing--and I'm not sure they're even half full. I
assume these can be filled to full capacity, however.>>>


Epson gives full carts with all of their consumer inkjet printers.
http://www.jonlayephotography.com

 

[John]

<<<Epson does the same thing--and I'm not sure they're even half full. I
assume these can be filled to full capacity, however.>>>

Epson gives full carts with all of their consumer inkjet printers.
http://www.jonlayephotography.com

So do HP, Canon, and the rest.

But all of the manufacturers have played a bit with tank "capacity".

It's a matter of product line management: Get some profits off the sale of
printers, and get some profits off the sale of cartridges.

All HP15 cartridges are provided full, wherein "full" is defined as the
amount of ink specified on the package. But an HP45 cartridge - same
physical size - has twice as much ink and is designed to not work in
printers that use the HP15.

Canon does it by providing budget-priced printers with small cartridges. The
budget-priced printer is half the price, but ink cartidges for the
budget-printer cost more per ml by a long shot.

Always remember that price of a product has little to do with cost. Price is
determined by the consumer's willingness to pay.