HD trouble?

B

Bill Cunningham

My computer has been giving me fits reseting itself all the time. I
removed all partitions and reformatted everything so it can't be malware. I
have SMART enabled in the bios and don't seem to be getting HD failure from
it or windows. I get the "blue screen of death" though quite abit and I see
codes in the registers. I don't know HD failure codes so I don't really know
what's going on. My model number is st300021a. I don't know how to run a HD
diagnostic online.

Bill
 
P

Pegasus [MVP]

Bill Cunningham said:
My computer has been giving me fits reseting itself all the time. I
removed all partitions and reformatted everything so it can't be malware.
I have SMART enabled in the bios and don't seem to be getting HD failure
from it or windows. I get the "blue screen of death" though quite abit and
I see codes in the registers. I don't know HD failure codes so I don't
really know what's going on. My model number is st300021a. I don't know
how to run a HD diagnostic online.

Bill

You download the diagnostic program from the site that your disk
manufacturer maintains, then follow the instructions. Keep also in mind that
disks are cheap. If your disk is suspect, why waste hours and hours on what
might be a futile exercise?
 
B

Bill Cunningham

I also advise running a RAM test

Well I donwloaded a little prgoram that tests RAM and it reported one
error. at about 97% complete. Saying RAM couldn't adequately store data.
What makes RAM go bad? I'm not even quite sure what kind of RAm I have.

Bill
 
N

New Fieend

RAMTEST is available in any Linux Live CD and you can boot that CD and run
RAMTEST from the loader. IF it reports an error you need to replace the
faulty memory.

Any competent computer store can find the correct memory for you machine.
 
P

Paul

Bill said:
Well I donwloaded a little prgoram that tests RAM and it reported one
error. at about 97% complete. Saying RAM couldn't adequately store data.
What makes RAM go bad? I'm not even quite sure what kind of RAm I have.

Bill

RAM can fail, even after it has been proven for a while. I bought
4x512MB of good quality RAM, and had one of the sticks fail after
two years of usage. One entire memory chip was dead, and returned
nothing but garbage. It could even have been a bad solder joint,
but I didn't play around with it.

This memory tester runs forever (or until you stop it). Two complete
passes error free is enough, as the test really isn't a guarantee the
RAM is good. Test5 seems to be pretty sensitive, while the earlier
tests might not find anything. This test may be present on some Linux
LiveCD distributions, as a boot time option. This program comes closest
to testing all of the memory. Only a small (1MB) reserved area might
not get tested. One reason for recommending this test, is because
of the percentage of the RAM stick that gets tested. The BIOS area
can't be tested. (The memory test used by the BIOS is of poor quality,
and the BIOS didn't notice I had a dead memory chip!)

http://www.memtest.org/

Run the memory test first. Once memory proves good, run the hard
drive diagnostic next.

Your hard drive is Seagate, so you can go to their site and get a
copy of Seatools for DOS. I run mine from a floppy. The download
provides all the software necessary to make a standalone bootable
test floppy. Boot from the floppy, then select the drive to test.
The test is read-only.

Some disk manufacturers provide disk tests which are destructive.
You will normally be warned, before doing a write test. Be careful
to read all the screens, before using any disk tester. Normally,
a disk test program will ask you "if you really want to do this".

*******

If you have multiple sticks of RAM in the computer, you may likely
be able to test them one at a time. That may make it less
ambiguous which stick is broken. It can be difficult to interpret
the memtest86+ screen, and determine which stick is bad. Once
you find errors, testing one stick at a time may allow sorting
the good from the bad.

When handling RAM

1) Turn off all power on the computer. Make sure the switch
on the back is off.
2) Use an antistatic bag to hold the RAM, while you're making changes.
3) Use a wrist strap, whose purpose is to hold you at the same
potential as the computer chassis.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2479151

4) Make sure you're inserting the RAM correctly. Align the key
with the slot. Make sure the RAM is fully seated, and both
latches are flush against the side of the RAM. Don't turn on
power to the computer, until the RAM is safely in place. If
crooked, the wrong contacts could make contact and ruin the RAM
when the power is applied. One poster even tried to saw a new
slot in the RAM to make it fit - don't do that :) If the slot
doesn't match the key, you bought the wrong kind of RAM
(FPM/EDO, SDRAM, DDR, DDR2, DDR3, RDRAM etc).

HTH,
Paul
 
B

Bill Cunningham

Paul said:
Your hard drive is Seagate, so you can go to their site and get a
copy of Seatools for DOS. I run mine from a floppy. The download
provides all the software necessary to make a standalone bootable
test floppy. Boot from the floppy, then select the drive to test.
The test is read-only.

I kind of thought so. I don't have in the computer a 3.5" floppy or
floppy of any kind nor an external one. Would these tests work then?

Bill
 
B

Bob I

From a CD

Bill said:
I kind of thought so. I don't have in the computer a 3.5" floppy or
floppy of any kind nor an external one. Would these tests work then?

Bill
 
B

Bill Cunningham

Paul said:
When handling RAM

1) Turn off all power on the computer. Make sure the switch
on the back is off.
2) Use an antistatic bag to hold the RAM, while you're making changes.
3) Use a wrist strap, whose purpose is to hold you at the same
potential as the computer chassis.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2479151

4) Make sure you're inserting the RAM correctly. Align the key
with the slot. Make sure the RAM is fully seated, and both
latches are flush against the side of the RAM. Don't turn on
power to the computer, until the RAM is safely in place. If
crooked, the wrong contacts could make contact and ruin the RAM
when the power is applied. One poster even tried to saw a new
slot in the RAM to make it fit - don't do that :) If the slot
doesn't match the key, you bought the wrong kind of RAM
(FPM/EDO, SDRAM, DDR, DDR2, DDR3, RDRAM etc).

I have a 1 meg Ohm resistor in a wrist strap. It has a clip to clip onto
the computer chassis. Would that keep from harming the componets?

Bill
 
P

Paul

Bill said:
I have a 1 meg Ohm resistor in a wrist strap. It has a clip to clip onto
the computer chassis. Would that keep from harming the componets?

Bill

The ESD wrist strap, is for safely helping to bring things to the
same potential (equipotential). Yes, it is a better solution while
working on the computer, than zapping things with your fingers.
At one time, a RAM purchase may have included a paper (disposable)
wrist strap. Having your own proper wrist strap, means being
able to reuse it at a future date.

Paul
 
P

Paul

Bill said:
I kind of thought so. I don't have in the computer a 3.5" floppy or
floppy of any kind nor an external one. Would these tests work then?

Bill

Seagate offers more than one option, so find a method that
matches your available hardware. I use floppy, because all
my machines have a floppy. Check the web page and see what
other options they offer.

Paul
 
B

Bill Cunningham

Paul said:
The ESD wrist strap, is for safely helping to bring things to the
same potential (equipotential). Yes, it is a better solution while
working on the computer, than zapping things with your fingers.
At one time, a RAM purchase may have included a paper (disposable)
wrist strap. Having your own proper wrist strap, means being
able to reuse it at a future date.

Is there any way to run a voltage or continuity test with a multi meter
on the ram sticks? To see if they're good.

Bill
 
P

Pegasus [MVP]

Bill Cunningham said:
Is there any way to run a voltage or continuity test with a multi meter
on the ram sticks? To see if they're good.

Bill

No, there isn't. Attacking a memory stick with a multimeter is equivalent to
tapping your skull with a hammer. It may ring but you won't find out if it
functions normally.
 
P

Paul

Bill said:
Is there any way to run a voltage or continuity test with a multi meter
on the ram sticks? To see if they're good.

Bill

I can't think of any good tests. If you're seeing just a few errors
for example, that suggests exterior (visible) electrical issues aren't
the problem, and the problem is inside one of the RAM chips. If the module
gave a clean failure in some way, then you might deduce from that,
that there was an open series damping resistor or a bad solder joint.
But the majority of failures are going to involve something inside
the RAM chip. So the multimeter doesn't tell us a lot.

Paul
 
P

Pegasus [MVP]

Paul said:
I can't think of any good tests. If you're seeing just a few errors
for example, that suggests exterior (visible) electrical issues aren't
the problem, and the problem is inside one of the RAM chips. If the module
gave a clean failure in some way, then you might deduce from that,
that there was an open series damping resistor or a bad solder joint.
But the majority of failures are going to involve something inside
the RAM chip. So the multimeter doesn't tell us a lot.

Paul

The multimeter test might destroy the RAM chip, like the tap on the head
with the hammer. I find it difficult to think of a more inappropriate test
for a RAM chip. Remember - it contains a hundred million or more transistor
gates operating at extremely low currents, less than the most sensitive
multimeter can detect!
 
B

Bill in Co.

Pegasus said:
The multimeter test might destroy the RAM chip, like the tap on the head
with the hammer. I find it difficult to think of a more inappropriate test
for a RAM chip. Remember - it contains a hundred million or more
transistor
gates operating at extremely low currents, less than the most sensitive
multimeter can detect!

Beyond that, it's the wrong tool for the job, no matter how sensitive it is.

There is no way a multimeter could test an integrated circuit. What would
be needed is an IC tester, and that would be specific for that type of chip,
as there is no such thing as a universal IC tester.

The only practical way to test a suspected IC chip for a consumer would be
by substitution with another one to see if that works.
 
P

Paul

Pegasus said:
The multimeter test might destroy the RAM chip, like the tap on the head
with the hammer. I find it difficult to think of a more inappropriate
test for a RAM chip. Remember - it contains a hundred million or more
transistor gates operating at extremely low currents, less than the most
sensitive multimeter can detect!

You can safely test silicon devices, if you use a multimeter with
"low power ohms" setting. It applies a voltage not intended to
cause forward conduction in the silicon chips.

If you lost the manual for your multimeter, you can verify this by using
two multimeters. One multimeter set to "ohms". The second multimeter
set to "volts". The "volts" multimeter will show you a rough idea
of the open circuit voltage that the "ohms" meter is putting out.
(Connect red to red, black to black.)

Test all the "ohms" ranges on the meter, to understand which
ranges are "high power" and "low power". If an ohms range doesn't
put out more than 1 volt open circuit, then it should be relatively
safe to use on just about anything. For the highest resistance
ranges, the results need some interpretation (since the voltmeter
has a finite input impedance of its own)

The $100 The $20
meter meter

Range Ohmmeter Voltmeter Assumed Confidence
Reads Reads Power type

Beep Infinity 2.66V High
Diode infinity 2.67V High High on purpose, for diode test
200 Infinity 1.01V Low
2K infinity 1.01V Low
20K Infinity 0.48V Low
200K infinity 0.43V Low
2M "0.995" 0.23V Low OK, see interpretation
20M "0.99" 0.04V Low
2000M "001" 0.27V ??? suspicious

(Note - a separate set of tests were done, and the "ohms" multimeter
never applied more than 1 milliamp of current to the test leads. Typical
silicon clamp diodes are rated for about 10 milliamps. So there is
no danger from the level of current flow either.)

In the 2 megohm test case, the "volts" multimeter appears to
have only a 1 megohm input impedance. Half of the open circuit
voltage is across the "volts" multimeter, and half is across
the constant current source inside the meter. We could conclude
from that, that the actual open circuit voltage applied
by the multimeter, is 2 * 0.23 volts or 0.46V. And that is suitable
for low power ohms. So you actually have to stare at the display
on both devices to understand what is going on.

My suspicion is, the "insulation test" range on my multimeter, is
actually high power ohms. It is pretty hard to test insulation,
with a low voltage. Insulation testing would normally be done
with a "megger". Since I am suspicious of what I see for the
2000M range, I likely would not switch to it while working on
the average PCB.

There are quality voltmeters, with much higher input impedance
than my $20 "volts" multimeter used in this test. For such a
device (perhaps a $1000 unit), I likely would not need interpretation
except for the last test case. And the voltmeter in that case, could
tell me what the open circuit voltage is, correctly, for the
rest of the ranges.

The $20 meter is the one I lend to friends :)

So there are six ranges on my $100 multimeter, that I'd use on a DIMM.
Without being concerned about any side effects to the silicon.

Some older meters, like my analog Simpson, are a bit meaner.
They apply nine volts open circuit, and would be unsuited
for this purpose. I could have run the same set of tests for
my Simpson, but there is no point, because I simply wouldn't
use it. My Simpson is good for volts "trend analysis", as digital
meters aren't perfect for all purposes. There are still
occasions for reaching for my oldest multimeter. "Ohms" would
not be one of those reasons.

If a person had concerns about any silicon device they were
working on, they could look in the datasheet for inspiration.
I haven't done that in this case for the memory chip. I'm reasonably
confident, that the six tested ranges on my multimeter, would
be safe enough.

HTH,
Paul
 
P

Pegasus [MVP]

Paul said:
You can safely test silicon devices, if you use a multimeter with
"low power ohms" setting. It applies a voltage not intended to
cause forward conduction in the silicon chips.

If you lost the manual for your multimeter, you can verify this by using
two multimeters. One multimeter set to "ohms". The second multimeter
set to "volts". The "volts" multimeter will show you a rough idea
of the open circuit voltage that the "ohms" meter is putting out.
(Connect red to red, black to black.)

Test all the "ohms" ranges on the meter, to understand which
ranges are "high power" and "low power". If an ohms range doesn't
put out more than 1 volt open circuit, then it should be relatively
safe to use on just about anything. For the highest resistance
ranges, the results need some interpretation (since the voltmeter
has a finite input impedance of its own)

The $100 The $20
meter meter

Range Ohmmeter Voltmeter Assumed Confidence
Reads Reads Power type

Beep Infinity 2.66V High
Diode infinity 2.67V High High on purpose, for diode
test
200 Infinity 1.01V Low
2K infinity 1.01V Low
20K Infinity 0.48V Low
200K infinity 0.43V Low
2M "0.995" 0.23V Low OK, see interpretation
20M "0.99" 0.04V Low
2000M "001" 0.27V ??? suspicious

(Note - a separate set of tests were done, and the "ohms" multimeter
never applied more than 1 milliamp of current to the test leads. Typical
silicon clamp diodes are rated for about 10 milliamps. So there is
no danger from the level of current flow either.)

In the 2 megohm test case, the "volts" multimeter appears to
have only a 1 megohm input impedance. Half of the open circuit
voltage is across the "volts" multimeter, and half is across
the constant current source inside the meter. We could conclude
from that, that the actual open circuit voltage applied
by the multimeter, is 2 * 0.23 volts or 0.46V. And that is suitable
for low power ohms. So you actually have to stare at the display
on both devices to understand what is going on.

My suspicion is, the "insulation test" range on my multimeter, is
actually high power ohms. It is pretty hard to test insulation,
with a low voltage. Insulation testing would normally be done
with a "megger". Since I am suspicious of what I see for the
2000M range, I likely would not switch to it while working on
the average PCB.

There are quality voltmeters, with much higher input impedance
than my $20 "volts" multimeter used in this test. For such a
device (perhaps a $1000 unit), I likely would not need interpretation
except for the last test case. And the voltmeter in that case, could
tell me what the open circuit voltage is, correctly, for the
rest of the ranges.

The $20 meter is the one I lend to friends :)

So there are six ranges on my $100 multimeter, that I'd use on a DIMM.
Without being concerned about any side effects to the silicon.

Some older meters, like my analog Simpson, are a bit meaner.
They apply nine volts open circuit, and would be unsuited
for this purpose. I could have run the same set of tests for
my Simpson, but there is no point, because I simply wouldn't
use it. My Simpson is good for volts "trend analysis", as digital
meters aren't perfect for all purposes. There are still
occasions for reaching for my oldest multimeter. "Ohms" would
not be one of those reasons.

If a person had concerns about any silicon device they were
working on, they could look in the datasheet for inspiration.
I haven't done that in this case for the memory chip. I'm reasonably
confident, that the six tested ranges on my multimeter, would
be safe enough.

HTH,
Paul

Regardless of the characteristics of any multimeter, it is a totally
unsuitable device for checking out a RAM chip.
 

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