Gotta keep it under $200 total

[Dave]

I have an aging Intel 2.4GHz P4 system at the moment that desperately
needs upgrading, however (as usual) funds are limited. I have to keep
things under $200.

After a lot of research, I am looking at the following and was looking
for opinions:

GIGABYTE GA-M78SM-S2H AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 HDMI Micro ATX Intel
Motherboard

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual
Channel Kit

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Brisbane 2.5GHz Socket AM2 65W Dual-Core
Processor - Retail

Newegg links are:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128340
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103212

Total with shipping is $192.56

I'm going with this motherboard because I already have a Gigabyte
motherboard and I've been happy with it. It has dual onboard video to
run both my monitors until I can afford a PCIe graphics card. My
primary HDD is already a SATA drive, so I can keep my two IDE DVD
burners.

Once I get the system up and running, I plan to sell my old parts and
buy a dedicated video card and more memory.

 

[Paul]

I have an aging Intel 2.4GHz P4 system at the moment that desperately
needs upgrading, however (as usual) funds are limited. I have to keep
things under $200.

After a lot of research, I am looking at the following and was looking
for opinions:

GIGABYTE GA-M78SM-S2H AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 HDMI Micro ATX Intel
Motherboard

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual
Channel Kit

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Brisbane 2.5GHz Socket AM2 65W Dual-Core
Processor - Retail

Newegg links are:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128340
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103212

Total with shipping is $192.56

I'm going with this motherboard because I already have a Gigabyte
motherboard and I've been happy with it. It has dual onboard video to
run both my monitors until I can afford a PCIe graphics card. My
primary HDD is already a SATA drive, so I can keep my two IDE DVD
burners.

Once I get the system up and running, I plan to sell my old parts and
buy a dedicated video card and more memory.

My main concern with boards like the GA-M78SM-S2H, is whether they
support two monitors simultaneously or not. For example, there is an
Asus board, where you move some jumpers (DVI or HDMI, but not both
at the same time). And I can find very few reviews for the boards
with 730a/GF8200, so I can't confirm anything. I looked at some
Asus boards using the same chipset, and have the same problem.
Very few customer reviews.

If you're willing to throw in a small amount of cash for a separate
PCI Express video card, you can connect two monitors to one of those.
The cheapest card I can find today is $15.99 after rebate. The only
problem with cards like that, is whether the connectors on the
faceplate, match your two monitors in capability or not. If you're
looking for two DVI-D connectors (for LCDs that only have
DVI connectors on them), then the price will likely be higher.

In terms of your choice of a 4800+ with 65W processor, that is
probably a safe choice. If you were getting a 6400+ or a
high end Phenom, some of those are pretty power hungry, and
the cheapest of motherboards are not up to the task. But the
4800+ will likely run with anything.

So the main potential disappointment I could see, is only
getting to run one monitor with your initial purchase. Time
will tell...

Paul

 

[Man-wai Chang ToDie (33.6k)]

GIGABYTE GA-M78SM-S2H AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 HDMI Micro ATX Intel

Motherboard

I suspect the GA-MA78G-DS3H is a better board...

Are you sure that you only need on-board VGA?


--
@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY.
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you!
/( _ )\ (Xubuntu 8.04) Linux 2.6.25.7
^ ^ 18:18:01 up 7:15 2 users load average: 1.04 1.13 1.07
? ? (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa/

 

[Jan Alter]

I have an aging Intel 2.4GHz P4 system at the moment that desperately
needs upgrading, however (as usual) funds are limited. I have to keep
things under $200.

After a lot of research, I am looking at the following and was looking
for opinions:

GIGABYTE GA-M78SM-S2H AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 HDMI Micro ATX Intel
Motherboard

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual
Channel Kit

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Brisbane 2.5GHz Socket AM2 65W Dual-Core
Processor - Retail

Newegg links are:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128340
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103212

Total with shipping is $192.56

I'm going with this motherboard because I already have a Gigabyte
motherboard and I've been happy with it. It has dual onboard video to
run both my monitors until I can afford a PCIe graphics card. My
primary HDD is already a SATA drive, so I can keep my two IDE DVD
burners.

Once I get the system up and running, I plan to sell my old parts and
buy a dedicated video card and more memory.

The mb has a 24 pin connector, as you may already know. Some boards will run
fine by plugging in the 20 pin, but it would be plausible that yours is the
20 from your description of your current system. Otherwise the choices
you've made look fine. I built a system with the 4800+ Brisbane for my
father-in-law a few months ago and was ecstatically pleased with its
performance compared to the P4 1.6 ghz he'd been using for the past 4 years.

Jan Alter
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Dave]

So the main potential disappointment I could see, is only
getting to run one monitor with your initial purchase. Time
will tell...

Several reviews on the NewEgg site specifically say that the board will
work with two monitors.

--Dave

 

[Dave]

I suspect the GA-MA78G-DS3H is a better board...

Are you sure that you only need on-board VGA?

For a few weeks, yeah. Once I get everything up and running, I can sell
my P4 board, CPU and memory and use those funds to get a dedicated video
card and more memory.

--Dave

 

[Dave]

The mb has a 24 pin connector, as you may already know. Some boards will run
fine by plugging in the 20 pin, but it would be plausible that yours is the
20 from your description of your current system.

You're talking about Power Supply? My PS is a 20+4 pin type so it
should work. I'll double check. Thanks for reminding me!

--Dave

 

[GTS]

I have an aging Intel 2.4GHz P4 system at the moment that desperately
needs upgrading, however (as usual) funds are limited. I have to keep
things under $200.

After a lot of research, I am looking at the following and was looking
for opinions:

GIGABYTE GA-M78SM-S2H AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 HDMI Micro ATX Intel
Motherboard

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual
Channel Kit

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Brisbane 2.5GHz Socket AM2 65W Dual-Core
Processor - Retail

SNIP
I think you will be very pleased. I recently replaced an ageing XP2600
system with the GA-M78SM-S2H, 2gb Ram, AMD X2 5600 - so very similar to
your choices. The Gigabyte board has received good reviews - Tom's Hardware
for one. The board lends itself in particular to HTPC use, as low power use,
quiet esp. if using the onboard fan controllers, and the IGP handles HD
video with ease - I get 2% CPU usage playing 720p Matrovska files. The
onboard HD audio is good, too.
However you CANNOT have the DVI & HDMI active at the same time - you can
only have VGA & DVI or VGA and HDMI.
But if you get a descrete ATI card that supports hybrid crossfire - the
HD2000 or HD3000 models - you can have the IGP and descrete card in
crossfire - so you can use upto four monitors. Any other video card not
supporting hybrid crossfire will, of course, shut off the integrated video.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-780g-chipset,1785.html

 

[Dave]

However you CANNOT have the DVI & HDMI active at the same time - you can
only have VGA & DVI or VGA and HDMI.

Thanks. For the moment I'm just have two 19-inch LCD monitors with VGA
connectors, so I'll be good. Once I can sell my old P4
chip/motherboard/memory, I'll use the cash to upgrade the RAM and get a
dedicated video card.

 

[Dave]

I have an aging Intel 2.4GHz P4 system at the moment that desperately
needs upgrading, however (as usual) funds are limited. I have to
keep things under $200.

After a lot of research, I am looking at the following and was
looking for opinions:

GIGABYTE GA-M78SM-S2H AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 HDMI Micro ATX
Intel Motherboard

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual
Channel Kit

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Brisbane 2.5GHz Socket AM2 65W Dual-Core
Processor - Retail

Newegg links are:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128340
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103212

Total with shipping is $192.56

I'm going with this motherboard because I already have a Gigabyte
motherboard and I've been happy with it. It has dual onboard video
to run both my monitors until I can afford a PCIe graphics card. My
primary HDD is already a SATA drive, so I can keep my two IDE DVD
burners.

Once I get the system up and running, I plan to sell my old parts and
buy a dedicated video card and more memory.

I can't believe nobody pointed out the obvious yet. This is not an
upgrade! You need to increase clock speed to upgrade. You are moving
from 2.4 to 2.5GHz, and spending $200 to do it. As I think someone
else pointed out, you will also need a new power supply. Minimum $60
for new power supply.

You need to save your money if you want to UPgrade. The system you
propose to build might be a TAD faster, once you've added the dedicated
video card. But if your current system has 1.5GB or more of RAM, you
will not notice a performance increase at all, even AFTER adding the
dedicated video card!

Oh, and with power supply and video card your total will be about $350
or more, just to get you back where you are now. -Dave

 

[Paul]

I can't believe nobody pointed out the obvious yet. This is not an
upgrade! You need to increase clock speed to upgrade. You are moving
from 2.4 to 2.5GHz, and spending $200 to do it. As I think someone
else pointed out, you will also need a new power supply. Minimum $60
for new power supply.

You need to save your money if you want to UPgrade. The system you
propose to build might be a TAD faster, once you've added the dedicated
video card. But if your current system has 1.5GB or more of RAM, you
will not notice a performance increase at all, even AFTER adding the
dedicated video card!

Oh, and with power supply and video card your total will be about $350
or more, just to get you back where you are now. -Dave

And what, pray tell, does the "4800+" mean ? It is the AMD P.R.
rating, comparable to a P4 processor. It means the machine is
"twice as fast" as the previous P4, as 4800/2400 = 2. The
reason for this, is the architecture of Athlon64 (and Core2 for
that matter), have an IPC which is 1.5x or more of the P4
architecture.

Note that the P.R. rating system is fallible, and there will
obviously be pathological cases you can come up with. But the
purpose of the AMD P.R. system, was to make it easy for customers
to compare AMD products, to Intel products. The processors do not
have identical performance. One blows away the other.

To give another concrete example. I own a P4 running at slightly
more than 3GHz. I own an AthlonXP processor, a 3200+ in a S462
socket. The 3200+ number is the P.R. rating. The actual clock rate
is 2200MHz. If we were comparing clock signals only, my P4 is a bit
less than 50% faster. Yet the performance of the two processors is
almost identical (tested via gaming). So in this case, the P.R. rating,
in my estimation, is a good estimator for comparing the two
machines. Even though the P4 has a faster clock, that does not
equate to faster performance.

That is why we didn't "point out the obvious".

Paul

 

[Dave]

I can't believe nobody pointed out the obvious yet. This is not an
upgrade! You need to increase clock speed to upgrade. You are moving
from 2.4 to 2.5GHz, and spending $200 to do it.

So, I will get ZERO benefit in 3DS Studio Max and Adobe After Effects by
moving from my 2.4GHz P4 to 2.5GHz AMD 64-bit X2?

Did Tomshardware get it wrong on their CPU chart then? According to
their render test, the AMD X2 CPU I selected was 9 times faster in their
3DS Max render test...

Since you are obviously more of an expert than I, could you please
contact them and inform them they are wrong?

Thanks!

 

[Dave]

So, I will get ZERO benefit in 3DS Studio Max and Adobe After Effects
by moving from my 2.4GHz P4 to 2.5GHz AMD 64-bit X2?

Did Tomshardware get it wrong on their CPU chart then? According to
their render test, the AMD X2 CPU I selected was 9 times faster in
their 3DS Max render test...

Since you are obviously more of an expert than I, could you please
contact them and inform them they are wrong?

Thanks!

Sarcasm noted, but I'm not a troll, and whether you believe it or not,
I really am trying to help you not to make an expensive mistake.

The problem with artificial benchmarks is that they usually have no
relation at all to what you do with the computer on a day to day
basis. If you want to increase your score on a particular benchmark,
then replacing your CPU might be a good idea.

IMHO though, the system you intend to build is going to perform no
better than the system you have. Unless all you intend to do with it
is run artificial benchmarks.

But it's your money. -Dave

 

[Dave]

And what, pray tell, does the "4800+" mean ? It is the AMD P.R.
rating, comparable to a P4 processor. It means the machine is
"twice as fast" as the previous P4, as 4800/2400 = 2. The
reason for this, is the architecture of Athlon64 (and Core2 for
that matter), have an IPC which is 1.5x or more of the P4
architecture.

Note that the P.R. rating system is fallible, and there will
obviously be pathological cases you can come up with. But the
purpose of the AMD P.R. system, was to make it easy for customers
to compare AMD products, to Intel products. The processors do not
have identical performance. One blows away the other.

To give another concrete example. I own a P4 running at slightly
more than 3GHz. I own an AthlonXP processor, a 3200+ in a S462
socket. The 3200+ number is the P.R. rating. The actual clock rate
is 2200MHz. If we were comparing clock signals only, my P4 is a bit
less than 50% faster. Yet the performance of the two processors is
almost identical (tested via gaming). So in this case, the P.R.
rating, in my estimation, is a good estimator for comparing the two
machines. Even though the P4 has a faster clock, that does not
equate to faster performance.

That is why we didn't "point out the obvious".

Paul

As I wrote before, the current system and proposed system will be
almost identical, in terms of performance. I'll stand by that
statement, as it is CORRECT.

The disclaimer is, if you want to increase your score on an artificial
benchmark, by all means spend the money...-Dave

 

[Dave]

Don't play with the troll unless your willing to take care of it.

Sorry I'll just put him on ignore.

 

[Dave]

Sarcasm noted, but I'm not a troll, and whether you believe it or not,
I really am trying to help you not to make an expensive mistake.

The problem with artificial benchmarks is that they usually have no
relation at all to what you do with the computer on a day to day
basis. If you want to increase your score on a particular benchmark,
then replacing your CPU might be a good idea.

IMHO though, the system you intend to build is going to perform no
better than the system you have. Unless all you intend to do with it
is run artificial benchmarks.

But it's your money. -Dave

Thanks. I use 3D design software and Adobe After Effects for the most
part and it is these that I wish to increase performance with.

The Tomshardware benchmark was to render a very large and very complex
image in 3D Studio Max (one of the apps I use). And that render was 9
times faster on the 64-bit AMD chip than a 32-bit P4 chip.

Since that is one of the applications I use on a regular basis, that is
not an insignificant or artificial benchmark to me. That is me being
significanly more productive, and ultimately making me more money.

Correct me if I am wrong, but should going from a single 32-bit
processor to "essentially" two 32-bit processors increase performance?
Especially if the software is designed to take advantage of multiple
processors?

Also, even if, as you say, I get no significant performance increase
immediately from the processor I can afford today. At least I'm moving
to an "upgradeable system", right? As opposed to my current system
which is maxed out. At least in a couple months when I have some spare
cash, I can simply replace the processor with a faster one.

 

[Dave]

Thanks. I use 3D design software and Adobe After Effects for the
most part and it is these that I wish to increase performance with.

The Tomshardware benchmark was to render a very large and very
complex image in 3D Studio Max (one of the apps I use). And that
render was 9 times faster on the 64-bit AMD chip than a 32-bit P4
chip.

Since that is one of the applications I use on a regular basis, that
is not an insignificant or artificial benchmark to me. That is me
being significanly more productive, and ultimately making me more
money.

Correct me if I am wrong, but should going from a single 32-bit
processor to "essentially" two 32-bit processors increase
performance? Especially if the software is designed to take advantage
of multiple processors?

Will it increase performance? Probably. However, I have to be careful
in answering that to the affirmative. I'm still betting that you won't
"notice" a difference. And, I'd be willing to bet that even tom of
tomshardware would advise against this upgrade.

I'm building systems frequently, so I've already built (roughly) the
two systems you are writing about. If my reason was
upgrading...ummmm, no, I wouldn't do it.

You're probably going to do it anyway, so I wish you the best of luck.
I just hope you won't be too disappointed with the results.

Also, even if, as you say, I get no significant performance increase
immediately from the processor I can afford today. At least I'm
moving to an "upgradeable system", right? As opposed to my current
system which is maxed out. At least in a couple months when I have
some spare cash, I can simply replace the processor with a faster one.

Never plan a system build thinking about a future upgrade. Build what
you need today. By the time the bang/buck factor makes sense to
replace your processor or video card or whatever, technology has
progressed to the point where the smart money is on starting over by
replacing everything. Unfortunate, but that's the way it is. -Dave

 

[Dave]

Will it increase performance? Probably. However, I have to be careful
in answering that to the affirmative. I'm still betting that you won't
"notice" a difference. And, I'd be willing to bet that even tom of
tomshardware would advise against this upgrade.

Okay, here is my report...

I re-installed XP 32-bit on the sytem and started doing some tests.

As you suggested, most applications show next to NO performance
increasses of any kind. In the case of Adobe After Effects 7.0 Pro, it
actually renders about 2% slower than my old system.

Because I doubled my memory to 2GB, the OS itself is a bit more
responsive.

However, I re-rendered several projects on the new system using Cinema
4D, 3D Studio Max and Adobe After Effects CS3. Since all of these
applications directly support multiple cores I got a 195% speed increase
from these applications (which are what I use to make a living).

That means a 6 hour render on my old system takes a few minutes over 3
hours now. THAT, all by itself, has made me more productive in my work
and was worth the effort.

So, if someone else is contemplating a similar upgrade and they are NOT
using software which is multi-core/multi-CPU aware then I would agree
with you that the upgrade would not be worth it. However, in my case,
it was WELL worth it and I have profited from the upgrade already.

I have budgeted for a processor upgrade in September after my daughter
goes back to school, so things should only get better. What is most
important to me is that the motherboard I chose is extremely flexible
and very upgradeable.