good old-fashioned hardware problem

[Robert Socrates]

Hi all!

I have a small problem and nearly no tools to fix it right now. Last
week, during a move, my old desktop pc took a fall. Today I finally got a
monitor to see if it still was working and lo! it didn't. Hardly
surprising.
Now I'm a bit stuck here, the computer seems to be booting, at least it
seems to be running (although the harddrive is curiously silent)
Unfortunately the monitor doesn't want to show anything. As soon as I
switch the PC on the monitor goes into standby.
What do you think? Is it the graphics card? Or something obvious I
completely missed?

 

[John McGaw]

Hi all!

I have a small problem and nearly no tools to fix it right now. Last
week, during a move, my old desktop pc took a fall. Today I finally got a
monitor to see if it still was working and lo! it didn't. Hardly
surprising.
Now I'm a bit stuck here, the computer seems to be booting, at least it
seems to be running (although the harddrive is curiously silent)
Unfortunately the monitor doesn't want to show anything. As soon as I
switch the PC on the monitor goes into standby.
What do you think? Is it the graphics card? Or something obvious I
completely missed?

Have you had a peek inside the computer yet? It could be almost anything
but given a fall you could well see heatsink/fan popped off of CPU,
unseated cards, popped memory, loose wires. Some, like the cards and memory
are dead simple to fix and removing then reseating them is often a cure-all
for odd computer glitches. Loose wires ditto, at least if they have come
loose from some obvious location. The heatsink/fan problem can be a real
bear since so many corners are cut on hold-downs that tiny plastic pins can
be sheared off and replacements can be hard to come by. So, take a look and
tell us what you see.

 

[Robert Socrates]

Have you had a peek inside the computer yet? It could be almost anything
but given a fall you could well see heatsink/fan popped off of CPU,
unseated cards, popped memory, loose wires. Some, like the cards and
memory are dead simple to fix and removing then reseating them is often
a cure-all for odd computer glitches. Loose wires ditto, at least if
they have come loose from some obvious location. The heatsink/fan
problem can be a real bear since so many corners are cut on hold-downs
that tiny plastic pins can be sheared off and replacements can be hard
to come by. So, take a look and tell us what you see.

Yes I did. There seems to be absolutely nothing wrong with it that I can
make out. All the cards sit in their places, all of the connections are
in their place, no loose cables or anything. But the computer does not
send any signal to the monitor when I switch it on.

 

[philo]

Yes I did. There seems to be absolutely nothing wrong with it that I can
make out. All the cards sit in their places, all of the connections are
in their place, no loose cables or anything. But the computer does not
send any signal to the monitor when I switch it on.

Even if it looks ok there is obviously something wrong

take the advice you were given and re-seat the components

I'd start by removing the video card
then re-inserting it

 

[Robert Socrates]

Even if it looks ok there is obviously something wrong

take the advice you were given and re-seat the components

I'd start by removing the video card
then re-inserting it

hmmm... did that. tried other cards as well but the computer is pretty
basic and the video card is the only thing that can be removed more or
less easily. did the same for the RAMs though.
still no reaction.

 

[VanguardLH]

I have a small problem and nearly no tools to fix it right now. Last
week, during a move, my old desktop pc took a fall. Today I finally
got a monitor to see if it still was working and lo! it didn't.
Hardly surprising. Now I'm a bit stuck here, the computer seems to be
booting, at least it seems to be running (although the harddrive is
curiously silent) Unfortunately the monitor doesn't want to show
anything. As soon as I switch the PC on the monitor goes into
standby. What do you think? Is it the graphics card? Or something
obvious I completely missed?

Well, did you yet power up the monitor and use its front-panel buttons
to check if you can see its OSD (onscreen display) to navigate through
its menus?

 

[Dirk Weber]

Robert Socrates schreef:

Now I'm a bit stuck here, the computer seems to be booting, at least it
seems to be running (although the harddrive is curiously silent)

When you start it, is there a beep after some time? Normally that should
show the result of the self test. Did it beep when being startet beforethat
accident? Or did you switch off the pc speaker in the bios?

That the hd is silent could be sign of fatal damage, normally it should
start spinning with power on. Do you have another computer (maybe a freind)
to insert the hd there and test it?

Are any lamps on on the mainboard etc. when power is on?

Groetjes uit Arft,

Dirk

 

[Paul]

hmmm... did that. tried other cards as well but the computer is pretty
basic and the video card is the only thing that can be removed more or
less easily. did the same for the RAMs though.
still no reaction.

Could we have some details about the computer ?

Would it be an AthlonXP processor in Socket 462 ? Those have a
bare silicon die. There is a small danger, that a sudden shock, could
crack the silicon die, if the heatsink gets hammered into the
silicon. The processors with a metal top on them, give a little bit
more structural support (not much more, but it helps).

One test I would try:

1) Turn off all power.
2) Remove RAM sticks.
3) Turn on computer.
4) If it beeps the case speaker, it has detected the "bad RAM" problem (a good sign).
If it is silent, then your processor is not running.

That's how I'd start to test. If the CPU is not running, it could be
a power problem (check power connectors), it could be the CPU needs to
be reseated, the motherboard could have a crack in it (not likely, but
mentioned for completeness). The RAM test is relatively simple, and
doesn't require a lot of tools.

For the above RAM test to work, the computer should have a case mounted
speaker. Some modern computers don't bother with those any more, which
makes this test invalid. If you used to hear a "beep", each morning when
you turned the computer on, then it likely has the necessary speaker inside.

Paul

 

[Robert Socrates]

Could we have some details about the computer ?

Would it be an AthlonXP processor in Socket 462 ? Those have a bare
silicon die. There is a small danger, that a sudden shock, could crack
the silicon die, if the heatsink gets hammered into the silicon. The
processors with a metal top on them, give a little bit more structural
support (not much more, but it helps).

One test I would try:

1) Turn off all power.
2) Remove RAM sticks.
3) Turn on computer.
4) If it beeps the case speaker, it has detected the "bad RAM" problem
(a good sign).
If it is silent, then your processor is not running.

That's how I'd start to test. If the CPU is not running, it could be a
power problem (check power connectors), it could be the CPU needs to be
reseated, the motherboard could have a crack in it (not likely, but
mentioned for completeness). The RAM test is relatively simple, and
doesn't require a lot of tools.

For the above RAM test to work, the computer should have a case mounted
speaker. Some modern computers don't bother with those any more, which
makes this test invalid. If you used to hear a "beep", each morning when
you turned the computer on, then it likely has the necessary speaker
inside.

Paul

oh Jesus... I just looked up the details for that model. The mainboard is
a custom design for the manufacturer roughly the size of microATX, but
not quite. At least the processor was a genuine intel... but well, how
time flies... the pc is already 6 years old.

Processor
Model : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00GHz
Speed : 3.00GHz
Performance Rating : PR3991 (estimated)
SMT Support : 2 Unit(s)
Type : Standard
L2 On-board Cache : 1024kB ECC Synchronous ATC (8-way sectored, 64 byte
line size)

Mainboard
Bus(es) : ISA AGP PCI IMB USB FireWire/1394 i2c/SMBus
MP Support : 1 CPU(s)
MP APIC : Yes
System BIOS : Phoenix Technologies, LTD 6.00 PG
System : MEDIONPC MS-7042
Mainboard : MICRO-STAR INTERNATIONAL CO., LTD MS-7042
Total Memory : 511MB DDR-SDRAM

Chipset 1
Model : VIA Technologies Inc PT880 CPU to PCI Bridge
Front Side Bus Speed : 4x 200MHz (800MHz data rate)
Total Memory : 512MB DDR-SDRAM
Memory Bus Speed : 2x 166MHz (332MHz data rate)


hmm... I can't really believe this, I thought I had more RAM in that, but
well, I didn't use the computer for three years.

I think it is the power problem you mentioned. I removed the RAM sticks
and started, it turned out exactly the same way as before. Unfortunately
the power connections look pretty perfect, there is no crack. So reseating
the processor?

 

[Robert Socrates]

Well, did you yet power up the monitor and use its front-panel buttons
to check if you can see its OSD (onscreen display) to navigate through
its menus?

the monitor works, I used my notebook to check that. The problem
definitely is in the pc.

 

[Robert Socrates]

Robert Socrates schreef:

When you start it, is there a beep after some time? Normally that should
show the result of the self test. Did it beep when being startet before
that accident? Or did you switch off the pc speaker in the bios?

That the hd is silent could be sign of fatal damage, normally it should
start spinning with power on. Do you have another computer (maybe a
freind) to insert the hd there and test it?

Are any lamps on on the mainboard etc. when power is on?

Groetjes uit Arft,

Dirk

okay the hd is starting, i checked that. there is no beep though. I
removed the ram and started again an there still was none.
the mainboard itself has no lamps. I think the mainboard might be
defective.

 

[Paul]

oh Jesus... I just looked up the details for that model. The mainboard is
a custom design for the manufacturer roughly the size of microATX, but
not quite. At least the processor was a genuine intel... but well, how
time flies... the pc is already 6 years old.

Processor
Model : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00GHz
Speed : 3.00GHz
Performance Rating : PR3991 (estimated)
SMT Support : 2 Unit(s)
Type : Standard
L2 On-board Cache : 1024kB ECC Synchronous ATC (8-way sectored, 64 byte
line size)

Mainboard
Bus(es) : ISA AGP PCI IMB USB FireWire/1394 i2c/SMBus
MP Support : 1 CPU(s)
MP APIC : Yes
System BIOS : Phoenix Technologies, LTD 6.00 PG
System : MEDIONPC MS-7042
Mainboard : MICRO-STAR INTERNATIONAL CO., LTD MS-7042
Total Memory : 511MB DDR-SDRAM

Chipset 1
Model : VIA Technologies Inc PT880 CPU to PCI Bridge
Front Side Bus Speed : 4x 200MHz (800MHz data rate)
Total Memory : 512MB DDR-SDRAM
Memory Bus Speed : 2x 166MHz (332MHz data rate)


hmm... I can't really believe this, I thought I had more RAM in that, but
well, I didn't use the computer for three years.

I think it is the power problem you mentioned. I removed the RAM sticks
and started, it turned out exactly the same way as before. Unfortunately
the power connections look pretty perfect, there is no crack. So reseating
the processor?

Motherboard manual available here.

https://www.csl-computer.com/download/ms7042.pdf

Look on page 4, at JPW1 square connector. You have an Intel
Pentium 4 processor (Prescott family). It needs 12V power
via the square 2x2 ATX12V power connector. The cable for
that, has two yellow and two black wires. The yellow wires are +12V,
while the black ones are grounds.

The connector has a latch on it. You have to depress the opposite
end of that (nearest you), to get it to release.

Pull the ATX12V off, examine the pins visually for damage. If
the connector was not fully inserted and latched down, the
pins can get burned.

Both the main 20 pin connector, and the ATX12V 2x2 connector, have
latches. You can check that both connectors are in position.
Since the ATX12V only powers the processor, that's the one I'm
interested in right now. It could account for your symptoms if
it was unplugged or burned to a crisp.

Paul

 

[VanguardLH]

the monitor works, I used my notebook to check that. The problem
definitely is in the pc.

If you power up the system unit and don't hear the hard disk spin up
then it isn't spinning which means it won't load an OS. However, the
video BIOS loads first and you should see the POST screen (displayed by
the system BIOS) - unless it is some pre-built crap that wants to spew
their ad banner on the screen (e.g., Dell).

Do you hear any beeps when you turn on the computer? The first BIOS
loaded is for the video. That's why you can see the system BIOS load
showing the CPU, clock rate, and display the BIOS screens because the
video already came up. If you get no screen display on a known good
monitor for the POST screen then your video is hosed.

Have you removed the video card and reseated it (while taking
anti-static precautions)? If it is an AGP video card, make sure to
press past the *second* indent. I've seem experts that forget to shove
the AGP video card all the way down into the slot with the result the
host won't start a boot. Is it onboard video or a separate
daughtercard? Have you yet jumpered the 2-pin CMOS clear mobo header to
reset your BIOS? Is the CMOS battery still in its slot?

You don't hear any beeps when you power up? Not even a single beep?
When you first cold power up the computer, do you see the LEDs flash on
the keyboard? One of the first functions performed when cold booting a
computer is the CPU issues a reset to all devices. For the keyboard,
the reset results in flashing once the ScrollLock, NumLock, and CapsLock
LEDs (for hardwired devices, not if wireless since the controller for
them is back in the transceiver instead of the device itself).

Did you look inside to check if the CPU is still in one piece? And that
its heatsink is still attached? And that the fan is still attached to
the heatsink and the fan spins when you power up? A CPU fan that
doesn't spin or reports zero RPM will prevent a host from booting.

Depending on how the case landed, it's possible that a heavy
daughtercard may crack or it might even crack the slot in the mobo. In
the first case, signal lines are damaged and the daughtercard won't work
(which means the video card could be damaged). In the second case, a
cracked slot means possibly not enough pressure against the card's
connectors. You might be able to compensate by removing and reinserting
the daughtercards several times to make sure any oxide gets wiped off
the connection. I've seen several mobos with cracked slots (the
phenolic with have the connectors inside and into which the card slides)
that still work. If the phenolic is cracked (which means the slot will
be loose), you can try using long cable ties to squeeze the slot halves
together (just make sure the heads of the cable ties will tighten so
they end up at the corners of the slot holder).

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

okay the hd is starting, i checked that. there is no beep though. I
removed the ram and started again an there still was none.
the mainboard itself has no lamps. I think the mainboard might be
defective.

When something is dropped, I look for any pieces that have fallen off,
including any still inside the case, and I look at and around the
heavy parts, like the heatsinks for the CPU and in the power supply
and the transformers and coils in the power supply. Transformers and
coils sometimes break their solder connections (not that hard to
resolder), and I've received two PSUs with cracked solder under their
transformers. Also PSU circuit boards tend to be made of worse
material than those for motherboards and computer cards and crack
more easily. Don't open a PSU unless its AC power cord is unplugged,
and if the PSU is damaged it's possible to receive a serious high
voltage shock even long after the AC has been disconnected.

I'd disconnect everything from the PSU and motherboard not needed to
verify basic operation of the computer -- disk drives, cards (except a
slow one for video), all but one memory module, and try booting again,
possibly with a different PSU. If that doesn't help, inspect both
sides of the mobo under strong light with a magnifying glass, to find
cracked solder joints (CPU, PCI, PCI-E, AGP sockets, all connectors at
the back) and dislodged or missing parts.

 

[Robert Socrates]

Robert Socrates wrote:



Motherboard manual available here.

https://www.csl-computer.com/download/ms7042.pdf

Look on page 4, at JPW1 square connector. You have an Intel Pentium 4
processor (Prescott family). It needs 12V power via the square 2x2
ATX12V power connector. The cable for that, has two yellow and two black
wires. The yellow wires are +12V, while the black ones are grounds.

The connector has a latch on it. You have to depress the opposite end of
that (nearest you), to get it to release.

Pull the ATX12V off, examine the pins visually for damage. If the
connector was not fully inserted and latched down, the pins can get
burned.

Both the main 20 pin connector, and the ATX12V 2x2 connector, have
latches. You can check that both connectors are in position. Since the
ATX12V only powers the processor, that's the one I'm interested in right
now. It could account for your symptoms if it was unplugged or burned to
a crisp.

Paul

Checked that. Both of them. The ATX12V looked unharmed, the other one is
still connected. I removed all possible cards that were removable and the
processor too (also that one was pretty much inseparable from it's
cooling unit. But I removed that and looked at it and it looked okay.
So right now I am at this position: the computer starts up witout a
system beep, but it does light up the keyboard; the hd is starting to
spin for a while, but as there is no more signal coming it winds down a
bit. The processor's cooling fan (powered from the mainboard) is starting
to spin at it's highest setting and won't shut down until the computer is
switched off again.
Removing the RAM units had absolutely no impact on anything, so it seems
like they were without power all along.

 

[Robert Socrates]

There could be some physical damage

also, on a few very rare occasions I've gotten a dead machine to work by
removing then reinserting the CPU itself

good idea, did that, did not work though.

 

[Robert Socrates]

If you power up the system unit and don't hear the hard disk spin up
then it isn't spinning which means it won't load an OS. However, the
video BIOS loads first and you should see the POST screen (displayed by
the system BIOS) - unless it is some pre-built crap that wants to spew
their ad banner on the screen (e.g., Dell).

Do you hear any beeps when you turn on the computer? The first BIOS
loaded is for the video. That's why you can see the system BIOS load
showing the CPU, clock rate, and display the BIOS screens because the
video already came up. If you get no screen display on a known good
monitor for the POST screen then your video is hosed.

Have you removed the video card and reseated it (while taking
anti-static precautions)? If it is an AGP video card, make sure to
press past the *second* indent. I've seem experts that forget to shove
the AGP video card all the way down into the slot with the result the
host won't start a boot. Is it onboard video or a separate
daughtercard? Have you yet jumpered the 2-pin CMOS clear mobo header to
reset your BIOS? Is the CMOS battery still in its slot?

You don't hear any beeps when you power up? Not even a single beep?
When you first cold power up the computer, do you see the LEDs flash on
the keyboard? One of the first functions performed when cold booting a
computer is the CPU issues a reset to all devices. For the keyboard,
the reset results in flashing once the ScrollLock, NumLock, and CapsLock
LEDs (for hardwired devices, not if wireless since the controller for
them is back in the transceiver instead of the device itself).

Did you look inside to check if the CPU is still in one piece? And that
its heatsink is still attached? And that the fan is still attached to
the heatsink and the fan spins when you power up? A CPU fan that
doesn't spin or reports zero RPM will prevent a host from booting.

Depending on how the case landed, it's possible that a heavy
daughtercard may crack or it might even crack the slot in the mobo. In
the first case, signal lines are damaged and the daughtercard won't work
(which means the video card could be damaged). In the second case, a
cracked slot means possibly not enough pressure against the card's
connectors. You might be able to compensate by removing and reinserting
the daughtercards several times to make sure any oxide gets wiped off
the connection. I've seen several mobos with cracked slots (the
phenolic with have the connectors inside and into which the card slides)
that still work. If the phenolic is cracked (which means the slot will
be loose), you can try using long cable ties to squeeze the slot halves
together (just make sure the heads of the cable ties will tighten so
they end up at the corners of the slot holder).

I don't hear any beeps but the keyboard is flashing. I reseated the cideo
card and put it as deep as possible.
The hd is spinning (I just didn't recognize it first because it actually
is pretty quiet). It does not show anything when booting up, there just
seems to be no signal going to the monitor. (Nothing comes up. When I
unplug the monitor I get a message that it is now unplugged, but when I
start the computer with the monitor on it just blinks in standby as it
does when the computer is not running)
CPU is in one piece and connected to the heatsink, fan is attached and
spins like crazy when I power up.
So far it seems like the motherboard just is doing nothing when I ppower
up. Nothing besides powering the fan and the power light. So there is
power on the board, it just does nothing n the board itself.

 

[GMAN]

oh Jesus... I just looked up the details for that model. The mainboard is
a custom design for the manufacturer roughly the size of microATX, but
not quite. At least the processor was a genuine intel... but well, how
time flies... the pc is already 6 years old.

Processor
Model : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00GHz
Speed : 3.00GHz
Performance Rating : PR3991 (estimated)
SMT Support : 2 Unit(s)
Type : Standard
L2 On-board Cache : 1024kB ECC Synchronous ATC (8-way sectored, 64 byte
line size)

Mainboard
Bus(es) : ISA AGP PCI IMB USB FireWire/1394 i2c/SMBus
MP Support : 1 CPU(s)
MP APIC : Yes
System BIOS : Phoenix Technologies, LTD 6.00 PG
System : MEDIONPC MS-7042
Mainboard : MICRO-STAR INTERNATIONAL CO., LTD MS-7042
Total Memory : 511MB DDR-SDRAM

Chipset 1
Model : VIA Technologies Inc PT880 CPU to PCI Bridge
Front Side Bus Speed : 4x 200MHz (800MHz data rate)
Total Memory : 512MB DDR-SDRAM
Memory Bus Speed : 2x 166MHz (332MHz data rate)


hmm... I can't really believe this, I thought I had more RAM in that, but
well, I didn't use the computer for three years.

I think it is the power problem you mentioned. I removed the RAM sticks
and started, it turned out exactly the same way as before. Unfortunately
the power connections look pretty perfect, there is no crack. So reseating
the processor?

So is this your Motherboard????

http://www.msi.com/index.php?func=proddesc&maincat_no=1&prod_no=568

http://www.msi.com/uploads/prod_5f7bd3d241425aa4501ffbfb1acd3cb8.jpg

 

[GlowingBlueMist]

I don't hear any beeps but the keyboard is flashing. I reseated the cideo
card and put it as deep as possible.
The hd is spinning (I just didn't recognize it first because it actually
is pretty quiet). It does not show anything when booting up, there just
seems to be no signal going to the monitor. (Nothing comes up. When I
unplug the monitor I get a message that it is now unplugged, but when I
start the computer with the monitor on it just blinks in standby as it
does when the computer is not running)
CPU is in one piece and connected to the heatsink, fan is attached and
spins like crazy when I power up.
So far it seems like the motherboard just is doing nothing when I ppower
up. Nothing besides powering the fan and the power light. So there is
power on the board, it just does nothing n the board itself.

One thing I've not heard anyone mention would be to remove the
motherboard from the case and try powering it on while it is sitting on
a non-conductive surface. Reason for the suggestion is a possibility
that a mounting point has shifted just enough to cause a short somewhere
on the board.

As for no beep, does your motherboard include a wired connection to a
speaker mounted in the chassis which might be loose at either end?
With no memory or other circuit cards installed the beast should beep
like crazy when powered on.

Another thought would be to try defaulting the BIOS to factory default
by using the reset pin or removing the power cord for 10 minutes as well
as the motherboard battery. This might reset something that is making
the system think the internal video system has been disabled in the BIOS.

Might try an external video card if you have one lying around and see if
that functions in case the problem is a defective internal video system
and not just one that is turned off.

Last thing I can think of is while the motherboard is out of the box
would be to plug in just a CD drive and memory and not the hard drive
and see if a Live Linux CD will boot up, but the lack of motherboard
BIOS not showing up briefly on the monitor makes me think that this will
fail as well.

 

[VanguardLH]

If it is an ATX style motherboard, there should be an LED that comes on
when you power up on the motherboard. In fact, there should be an LED
that stays lit when you power off. For ATX, and with the power cord
still connected to the PSU, the PSU supplies a 5V standby line to the
motherboard to power its power-on logic (ATX uses logic on the mobo for
power on, not a direct wire from Power switch to PSU as was used in the
old AT-style mobos). Well, for an ATX mobo there should be LEDs. In
another subthread, the model mobo you mentioned and the .pdf doc that
someone gave you a link doesn't show any mobo LEDs (but that doesn't
mean there are no LEDs, just that they don't show them in their
illustrations of the motherboard).

With the power turned off AND the power cord yanked out of the PSU, did
you check the 20-pin PSU connector on the mobo (by removing it and
reseating it)? You said the CPU fan was spinning so it is getting power
but I don't know if it connects to a PSU connector, like a 4-pin Molex,
which means it always spins at full speed or if the fan connects to a
"CPU fan" 3-pin header on the mobo.

On that mobo is an 8-pin header (JFP1). Are all the wires connected to
it? Two of the pins are for Pwr_LED. Do you see the Power LED in the
case light up when you apply power? They label 2 pins as "PS-ON" which
doesn't make sense. The PS-ON line (green wire, pin 14) is in the
20-pin connector from the PSU. Even their manual says the JPW1
connector (20-pin PSU connector) has PS_ON as pin 14. Is there or were
there any wires (in a 2-pin connector) that went to JFP1's PS-ON pins?

Can you get a video card from another host from a user that is willing
to sacrifice it in case you statically or physically shock that one,
too? Otherwise, you can get some basic video cards for cheap just to
check if the video card is the problem and not something on the
motherboard.

Newegg: Cheap AGP video cards starting at $32
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...25&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&Order=PRICE&PageSize=20

You didn't mention what slot you use for a video card; however, the
manual that someone gave a link to a .pdf file says it has an AGP slot.
When fully inserted, the locking tang at the back end of the slot should
flip up and lock the video card into place. If you can't flip up the
tang to lock it then the card isn't fully seated.

A test video card would be cheaper than getting a whole new motherboard
and risk damage to the CPU, memory, and other devices with a mobo
replacement. Ask around and you might find someone that has an old
usable video card sitting in storage in a drawer. There might be some
electonics parts stores in your area that have old clunker PCs that'll
let you grab a video card out of them for a few dollars. Or check
Craigslist for some cheapies you can use for a test video card.