Getting rid of dual boot setup?

[Pegasus \(MVP\)]

Both you and the OP should make clear what you
mean by "move the contents of D: to C:". Do you/he
mean:

"move the contents of the partition now containing the
system having file root 'D:' to a new partition in the empty
space that had previously contained the partition with the
system that had file root 'C:'. ", or do you/he mean:

"move the contents of the partition now containing the
system having file root 'D:' to the partition which now
contains the system that has file root 'C:' "?

In the first case, the partition with file root "C:" disappears
to be replaced by another partition, and
in the second case, the partition with file root "C:" remains
and retains its designation and file root as "C:",
and the content of the 2nd partition, rooted at "D:" is
inserted or concatenated somehow, perhaps just below
the "C:" root, perhaps as an image file.
The confusing part of your and the OP's question is the
reference to "C:" as a destination. The first part of the
supposed move or copy process is to obliterate the
Local Disk(C, i.e. what you and the OP call "C:", and
thereafter there would be no "C:" to move anything to.
If you or the OP intend that the partition 1 keep its identity
as a partition and its file root "C:", that may be the cause
of your perceived difficulty.



So what the heck does *that* mean?

*TimDaniels*

I leave it to the OP to answer your questions if he so desires
and if he can work out what exactly you mean. Somehow
I find the OP's post a lot easier to understand than your
post above.

 

[Rod Stultz]

I leave it to the OP to answer your questions if he so desires
and if he can work out what exactly you mean. Somehow
I find the OP's post a lot easier to understand than your
post above.

Thanks guys for all your insight. From the looks of all these answers I
will either leave it as is and just remove the unwanted OS and programs
from C: and use it as a data drive, keep XP on D: or backup and wipe the
whole thing and start with a clean install on a newly formatted disk.

Moving and getting things right sounds as hard as or harder than a clean
install.

Too busy right now to worry about either so I guess the status quo will
stand. I'll probably do a clean install in the New Year - hoping for a
new SATA HD for Christmas (hint hint!! dear).

Thanks for all your help and opinions.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Rod

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Somehow I find the OP's post a lot easier to
understand than your post above.

That's because I try not to write in shorthand, but to
use terminology that includes more than the "vanilla"
case, and I try to use terms that are consistent with utilities
in the operating system. I understand that you answer
endless questions all day long, and shorthand becomes
second nature. But this, in turn, leads readers to adopt
the same "shorhand", and features of the general case
become forgotten. An example here has been reference
to "drive C". If a person forgets that there can be more
than one partition on a hard drive and that there can
even be several operating systems on a single hard drive,
"drive C" is almost synonymous with "the first hard drive",
or "the primary hard drive" or "the Master hard drive" -
terms which are quite meaningless given the possibility
of multiple hard drives with multiple OSes and the fluidity
of the boot sequence and arbitrariness of Master/Slave
settings. Also forgotten is that a Local Disk can be
renamed. How permanent and/or far-reaching this renaming
is, I don't know. But that also makes the appelation "C drive"
somewhat nebulous. If you want to move an OS currently in
what is called by the running OS "Local Disk(D", what does
it mean to "move the OS to C drive" when the move itself
may wipe out the contents of the partition containing "C drive",
obliterate the formatting of that partition, and even remove the
entry for that partition from the partition table? Your shorthand
reduces verbiage, but it also congeals ignorance of wider
horizons. Maybe there should be a disclaimer reading
"Beware! The answers presented here may lead to a
misunderstanding of the operating system's full functionality
and may result in eventual confusion and stunted intellectual
growth."

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Thanks guys for all your insight. From the looks of all
these answers I will either leave it as is and just remove
the unwanted OS and programs from C: and use it as
a data drive, keep XP on D: or backup and wipe the
whole thing and start with a clean install on a newly
formatted disk.

Moving and getting things right sounds as hard as or
harder than a clean install.

It's not harder to do - just harder to understand what
you've done and why it continues to work.

Too busy right now to worry about either so I guess the
status quo will stand. I'll probably do a clean install in the
New Year - hoping for a new SATA HD for Christmas
(hint hint!! dear).

Well, don't name it "Caniels", and why are you
calling me "dear"?

Thanks for all your help and opinions.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Happy cloning!

*TimDaniels*

 

[Pegasus \(MVP\)]

That's because I try not to write in shorthand, but to
use terminology that includes more than the "vanilla"
case, and I try to use terms that are consistent with utilities
in the operating system. I understand that you answer
endless questions all day long, and shorthand becomes
second nature. But this, in turn, leads readers to adopt
the same "shorhand", and features of the general case
become forgotten. An example here has been reference
to "drive C". If a person forgets that there can be more
than one partition on a hard drive and that there can
even be several operating systems on a single hard drive,
"drive C" is almost synonymous with "the first hard drive",
or "the primary hard drive" or "the Master hard drive" -
terms which are quite meaningless given the possibility
of multiple hard drives with multiple OSes and the fluidity
of the boot sequence and arbitrariness of Master/Slave
settings. Also forgotten is that a Local Disk can be
renamed. How permanent and/or far-reaching this renaming
is, I don't know. But that also makes the appelation "C drive"
somewhat nebulous. If you want to move an OS currently in
what is called by the running OS "Local Disk(D", what does
it mean to "move the OS to C drive" when the move itself
may wipe out the contents of the partition containing "C drive",
obliterate the formatting of that partition, and even remove the
entry for that partition from the partition table? Your shorthand
reduces verbiage, but it also congeals ignorance of wider
horizons. Maybe there should be a disclaimer reading
"Beware! The answers presented here may lead to a
misunderstanding of the operating system's full functionality
and may result in eventual confusion and stunted intellectual
growth."

*TimDaniels*

Waffle. "Congeal ignorance"?

 

[Pegasus \(MVP\)]

I have Win ME on C: WinXP Pro on D: and data files on E: (all partitions
on the same drive). I would like to get rid of Win ME now as I don't
need it anymore (for older program compatibility). Is there any way to
remove ME and still keep XP working without having to reinstall XP?

TIA

Rod

Your problem intrigued me, and after doing some research I found
that there is a way to move WinXP to your first partition without
reloading it. The process is nowhere near as simple as our friend
of the many words wants us to believe, but it does work. To do
it, you would need an independent networked Win2000/XP PC
or laptop.

The technique works because it ensures that your old drive letter
(which was E is preserved.

Reply in this branch of the thread in case you're still interested.

 

[Rod Stultz]

Your problem intrigued me, and after doing some research I found
that there is a way to move WinXP to your first partition without
reloading it. The process is nowhere near as simple as our friend
of the many words wants us to believe, but it does work. To do
it, you would need an independent networked Win2000/XP PC
or laptop.

The technique works because it ensures that your old drive letter
(which was E is preserved.

Reply in this branch of the thread in case you're still interested.

Thanks for the interest but I don't think I am going to go that way now.
I hope to get a new SATA HD for or after Christmas and I am planning to
do a clean install when I get it installed. I just made myself a
slipstreamed SP2 CD the other day and it works great.

Thanks Again,

Rod

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Here is what the OP wrote:
===================
Thanks, this should work for me. The only question I have
after this is can I move the contents of D: (my XP partition)
to C: (now Win ME partition) or do I have to leave XP on D:
and use the empty C: partition for data.

I really want to get XP on to the C: partition if possible!
===================
Now PQMagic can do the move, but it cannot change the
numerous registry entries. After moving WinXP to drive C:,
WinXP will be crippled.

I tried it earlier today. I suggest you try it too! And when you do
try it, please explain the following:
- The OP's drive D: lacks ntdetect.com, ntldr and boot.ini. After
the move by PQMagic, drive C: will lack the same files. How
did you restore them?
- The boot sector of drive D: does not contain the WinXP boot
code - it's on the boot sector for drive C:. How did you restore
that boot sector?
There are means and ways of doing these things but they require
tools other than PQMagic.

And why do you think that the OP didn't have ntdetect.com,
ntldr and boot.ini on his WinXP system? Here's what he wrote:


"I have Win ME on C: WinXP Pro on D: and data files
on E: (all partitions on the same drive). I would like to
get rid of Win ME now as I don't need it anymore (for
older program compatibility). Is there any way to remove
ME and still keep XP working without having to reinstall
XP? TIA"


If WinXP had been installed on a Primary partition, it would
have those files. Are you assuming that his WinXP was
installed on an Extended partition? And did you try your
experiment with a WinXP installed on an Extended partition?

There is no other explanation for the absence of those files.
Partition Magic doesn't strip files before it moves a partition.

Furthermore, the Master Boot Record is not part of an
OS's partition. You can delete an OS's partition and the
MBR will remain. The MBR merely sends control to
whatever is the "active" partition on the hard drive. If
you're trying to use the boot files on a particular partition,
that partition better be marked "active".

*TimDaniels*

 

[Pegasus \(MVP\)]

And why do you think that the OP didn't have ntdetect.com,

ntldr and boot.ini on his WinXP system? Here's what he wrote:


"I have Win ME on C: WinXP Pro on D: and data files
on E: (all partitions on the same drive). I would like to
get rid of Win ME now as I don't need it anymore (for
older program compatibility). Is there any way to remove
ME and still keep XP working without having to reinstall
XP? TIA"

When installing WinXP, the files ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini
are installed on the first active partition, which is drive C:. In the
case of the OP, the rest of WinXP went to drive D:. When he images
drive D: to drive C: then he will miss out on these files - they
do not exist on drive D:!

When installing WinXP on a drive other than C: then it is
irrelevant if that drive is on a primary partition or if it is a logical
drive.

If WinXP had been installed on a Primary partition, it would
have those files. Are you assuming that his WinXP was
installed on an Extended partition? And did you try your
experiment with a WinXP installed on an Extended partition?

There is no other explanation for the absence of those files.
Partition Magic doesn't strip files before it moves a partition.

See above.
=============================

Furthermore, the Master Boot Record is not part of an
OS's partition. You can delete an OS's partition and the
MBR will remain. The MBR merely sends control to
whatever is the "active" partition on the hard drive. If
you're trying to use the boot files on a particular partition,
that partition better be marked "active".

Agreed.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

When installing WinXP, the files ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini
are installed on the first active partition, which is drive C:.

It was probably the case that the partition marked "active"
at the time of installation of WinXP was the partition named
"Local Disk(C", but did *that* lead to the absence of the
boot files on WinXP's partition, or was it because WinXP
was put into an Extended partition? IOW, if WinXP had been
put into a Primary partition, would it have been given its own
boot files? After all, one requirement for an OS to be
independently bootable is that it be in a Primary partition.

That's why I asked if your experiment had used an Extended
partition for WinXP. Did it?

*TimDaniels*

 

[Pegasus \(MVP\)]

It was probably the case that the partition marked "active"
at the time of installation of WinXP was the partition named
"Local Disk(C", but did *that* lead to the absence of the
boot files on WinXP's partition, or was it because WinXP
was put into an Extended partition? IOW, if WinXP had been
put into a Primary partition, would it have been given its own
boot files? After all, one requirement for an OS to be
independently bootable is that it be in a Primary partition.

No. Only the WinXP boot files must reside in the active primary
partition. The rest of the OS can reside anywhere else. Why don't
you try the following simple test instead of labouring the point?
1. Take a spare disk.
2. Connect it as a slave disk.
3. Partition it under WinXP: Partition1=10 MBytes (active), Partition2=3
GBytes
Make Partition2 a logical partition. This is pretty well what the OP
had. In
his case, WinME resided on the Partition1.
4. Disconnect the master disk.
5. Make the slave disk the master disk.
6. Install WinXP in Partition2.
7. Reboot, then check what's on drive C: (=Partition1). You will find
c:\ntldr, c:\ntdetect.com, c:\boot.ini.
8. Check what's on drive D: (Partition2). You will find d:\windows.
You won't find ntldr, ntdetect.com, boot.ini.

Now repeat the same test, but make Partition2 a primary partition, same
as Partition1 (which is still the active partition). The results will be
exactly
the same!

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Why don't you try the following simple test instead
of labouring the point?

Because you're the MVP and you've already done
the labor. All that I've asked is that you report what
you've already done. Aren't you guys the information
guys?

1. Take a spare disk.
2. Connect it as a slave disk.
3. Partition it under WinXP: Partition1=10 MBytes (active),
Partition2=3 GBytes
Make Partition2 a logical partition. This is pretty well
what the OP had.

The OP never said what kind of partition his WinXP was in.

In his case, WinME resided on the Partition1.
4. Disconnect the master disk.
5. Make the slave disk the master disk.

With only one hard drive, it doesn't matter whether
it's a Master or Slave.

6. Install WinXP in Partition2.
7. Reboot, then check what's on drive C: (=Partition1).
You will find c:\ntldr, c:\ntdetect.com, c:\boot.ini.
8. Check what's on drive D: (Partition2). You will find
d:\windows. You won't find ntldr, ntdetect.com, boot.ini.

Now repeat the same test, but make Partition2 a
primary partition, same as Partition1 (which is still the
active partition). The results will be exactly the same!

Did you try it, and is that what you saw?

*TimDaniels*

 

[Pegasus \(MVP\)]

Because you're the MVP and you've already done
the labor. All that I've asked is that you report what
you've already done. Aren't you guys the information
guys?





The OP never said what kind of partition his WinXP was in.




With only one hard drive, it doesn't matter whether
it's a Master or Slave.




Did you try it, and is that what you saw?

*TimDaniels*

Well, I obviously slipped there with the master/slave disk.
However, this does not change the facts about the location
of the boot files.

Seeing that you are very good at claiming things which
are at variance with the facts, and not so eager to try
things for yourself for verification, I shall now stop
monitoring this thread. You will need to start a new
thread if you wish to continue the discussion, but only
if you're prepared to put your money where your pen
is.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"Pegasus (MVP)" withdrew:

"Timothy Daniels" asked:

Seeing that you are very good at claiming things which
are at variance with the facts, and not so eager to try
things for yourself for verification, I shall now stop
monitoring this thread.

Again:

Did you try it, and is that what you saw?

*TimDaniels*

 

[William R Trudeau]

Your problem intrigued me, and after doing some research I found
that there is a way to move WinXP to your first partition without
reloading it. The process is nowhere near as simple as our friend
of the many words wants us to believe, but it does work. To do
it, you would need an independent networked Win2000/XP PC
or laptop.

The technique works because it ensures that your old drive letter
(which was E is preserved.

Reply in this branch of the thread in case you're still interested.

--
wrt

Pegasus, I am interested in the resolution.
I made a "parallel" install of XP PRO as a safety measure (I.e., instead
of wiping out C: and making a fresh install on C bcs of other disks
the parallel install was assigned the letter F:.

I realize now that I should have hidden the C: partition or disconnected
the HD (since C: is in fact on another HD) so as to make my fresh
install independent.

But, as you correctly point out, the boot.ini files etc. reside on C: so
my image of F: for future use is not the useful by itself. I could
delete everything from C: except the boot dependent files and then Image
C: so that in the future I could recreate the C: drive (with boot files)
and the F: drive with the OS; but I would rather make the F: drive
completely independent.

Is this possible?

Several things about this intrigued me, could you shed light on what you
know about the following:

1) When XP loads are the boot files "customized" for the OS environment
(number of HDs, partitions, etc.) or are they generic, I.e. simply
copied from the XP install disk to the HD. IOW, I realize that the
boot.ini file is "customized" to the system - that's obvious - but are
ntldr, ntdetect, and any other boot related files also "customized"? If
they are "customized" than that introduces a hurdle; if not, there is
one less thing to work through.

2) Do the boot files HAVE to reside on C: or is it possible to have a
system were C: is all data files with F: (or some other letter)
containing the boot files at its root? (I ask the above w/o reference
to a 3rd party boot loader)

3)I have been following your posts to Rod Shultz' original question
(thank you for your patience) and it seems to me that Mr. Daniels (not
that I want to get into the middle of things) never addressed the most
obvious hitch to the whole picture which Buck Rogers captures very
succinctly: "HMMMMM

What about all the registry entries that relate to D:\"anything"?

Buck"

This hitch has always seemed obvious to me, viz. What do you do with all
the registry pointers to drive X: (any letter other than C not to
mention the pointers in .ini files? They don't magically change upon
moving an OS to another partition/drive.

I have thought about this especially in terms of Images. If you image a
system residing on F: and then someday wish to restore to C: what do you
do with the registry/ .ini files.

Partition Magic has a drive map utility but it's not clear to me that
this would be very useful in the scenario above.

For what it's worth, my thoughts have brought me to the following:

One must either:

a) recreate the original "partition environment"
or
b) search the registry for all the "F:" pointers and change them to
"C:" (or whatever letter the image will reside in) as well as change the
..ini files (are there others?). Some of these changes could probably be
done on an "as needed" basis. IOW, change as much as you can ahead of
time so that you can get into the OS and when something doesn't work as
it should either the system will complain (looking for F or one must
intuitively resolve the issue. But, obviously this requires enough of
the drive letter issues to be resolved to make the system bootable and
useable so that the remaining issues can simply be mopped up.

4) In my case, since the boot files on C: already successfully load the
system that resides on F:, could I copy the boot files from C: to F:
alter the boot.ini file (I'm not even sure that would be needed) and
then (somehow) get the MBR to point to F:? OR, is the whole point that
Win XP will ONLY boot from C:?

Again, thank you for your patience. BTW, my attitude is not, "Well your
the MVP so..." You are a person like the rest of us with a 24 hr day
and everything you do is voluntary, you simply have more knowledge and
experience than many of us. I appreciate your time and hope that the
length of my post is not annoying.

wrt

 

[Timothy Daniels]

I made a "parallel" install of XP PRO as a safety measure
(I.e., instead of wiping out C: and making a fresh install
on C bcs of other disks the parallel install was assigned
the letter F:.

I realize now that I should have hidden the C: partition or
disconnected the HD (since C: is in fact on another HD)
so as to make my fresh install independent.

But, as you correctly point out, the boot.ini files etc. reside
on C: .....
[.........]
2) Do the boot files HAVE to reside on C: or is it possible
to have a system were C: is all data files with F: (or some
other letter) containing the boot files at its root? (I ask the
above w/o reference to a 3rd party boot loader)

You can have a system with multiple hard drives, each
with several WinXPs, and each bootable independently
of the other hard drives and other OSes. I have such a
system. It has 3 hard drives with 6 WinXP Pros installed
in 6 partitions, and each can be booted whether or not
the others are visible. What you need are MBRs on each
hard drive and boot files (i.e. boot.ini, ntldr, and ntdetect.com)
on each partition that contains an OS. The hard drive at
the head of the BIOS's boot sequence gets control at its
MBR. The MBR looks for the partition marked "active" on
that hard drive. The "active" partition gets control at its ntldr,
which then looks at the boot.ini file next to it get the boot
menu that it presents on the screen. None of the partitions
need be called "C:", or *all* the OSes can call themselves
"C:" when they start up. If allowed to see each other at
start-up, they merely consider each other file structures,
and files can be dragged-'n-dropped from one partition
to another.

Pegasus can tell you how to set that up.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Pegasus \(MVP\)]

There are answers to all your questions. However, this thread
has well and truly run its course. Please start a new one and
I will respond in detail.

 

[wrt]

Done:

See - Make Parallel Installation Independent

 

[Buck Rogers]

Pegasus,

Sure didn't think my initial off-the-cuff comment about what would
happen with the entries in the registry relating to the D drive would
cause such a long lasting thread. I've been observing from the
sidelines and, I must say, you are much more patient than me.......I
would have given up days ago trying to explain a (seemingly) simple
concept.

Regards,

Buck

 

[Pegasus \(MVP\)]

You were, of course, entirely correct with your comment.
This thread did indeed meander all over the place but at
the same time it led me to discover a technique that lets
me copy an existing Win2000 partition to any other
partition without running afoul of drive letters embedded
in the registry.

In other words, if WinXP is installed on drive F: (the
fourth partition on the disk) then I can successfully move
it to the first partition and run it from there. That's neat!