Future of ADP's

[Reese Watt]

Here's a brief summary of my career:

I started out as an actuary using Excel spreadsheets.
I realized Excel wasn't a database, so I learned Access and VBA
I learned Access had limits, so I learned SQL-Server and ADP projects.
I became a developer and developed a really nice application using
SQL-Server/ADP that is helping lots of people be much more efficient.
Now, we're consider marketing this application to other firms and I want to
be sure I have a platform that will be good for the long-term investment of
future clients.

From what I'm reading, I feel like a cartoon character with my left foot in
one car and my right foot in another and straight ahead is a fork in the
road. The left fork is the VB.Net/SQL-Server road. The right fork is the
Access/ACCDB road. I want to continue to use Access for the front end and
SQL Server for the back end, but it may not be possible.

Here are my questions:

1) Is my perception correct, that Microsoft really doesn't have an
all-in-one application to design front-ends to SQL Server, other than the
ADP route? I know there is VB.Net, but even there you need Crystal Reports
to design your reports.

2) Are there things that I do in Access reports that can't be done in
Crystal Reports?

3) Is VB.Net really as slow to develop as it seems to me? I taught myself
Access, VBA and SQL-Server, so I have a fairly good idea of the pain that is
required to learn a new technology. I've also done a few projects using
VB.Net. It just doesn't seem like VB.Net is nearly as easy to use. Here
are a few examples:
There is no AfterUpdate event, nor a host of other easy-to-use events.
It seems like combo boxes are much more complicated.
Datasheet forms (datagrid) are much more difficult to work with.

In other words, if I bite the bullet and take six months to really learn
VB.Net, will I even then be able to develop applications as fast I can in
Access right now?

5) Are there any third-party interfaces that make VB.Net more of a RAD
environment?

6) Is there any way for me to get in contact with a knowledgable person at
Microsoft to a) express my support for ADP's and b) get a better idea of
what the future may hold?

Thanks to all

 

[Baz]

ADP's are as good as dead. While they are still supported by Access 2007,
it's clear that Microsoft has lost interest and has no intention of
developing the technology further.

However, there's nothing wrong with using mdb's (or accdb's) with linked SQL
Server tables. It's a technology that worked well for years before ADP's
were invented.

The learning curve for VB.Net is steep, especially if Access is the only
technology with which you have prior experience. Even if you become an
expert you will still lack much of the Access functionality that you know
and love (e.g. subforms, continuous forms), and it will still take you much
longer to develop a database application than with Access (despite what some
one-eyed dotnet-heads might claim).

 

[Vayse]

With regards to VB reports, Microsoft now have Report Viewer, and seem to be
pushing this instead of crystal reports.
I like Report Viewer, its certainly easier to use than Crystal.
However, Report Viewer has the same problem as Visual Basic 2005. Its still
not stable, and Microsoft aren't going to fix it - they've moved onto the
next version. Everything will probably work fine for you, but it may not.
And the new version is just around the corner.......

Access 2007 seems to have a lot of issues. If you are considering marketing
to other firms, then you may need the access runtime.
Be aware that the Access 2007 runtime was only released this week, and that
ADP reports won't work with it. Which could be a bit of an issue!
http://blogs.msdn.com/clintcovington/archive/2007/07/20/the-runtime-is-available-for-download.aspx

As Baz said, mdb/accdb still works, and this may be the way to proced. Tonys
blog is interesting
http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
and discusses some ways to speed up the new versions of access, and
improving Access on Vista.

Personally, I like using dotnet. Its flashy, and I find it very useful for
small to medium apps. Style over substance!
However, for anything complex, I would stay with Access 2003. It is faster
to develop in, and relatively stable.

Vayse

 

[Reese Watt]

Baz,

Thanks for the response. It feels like I would be going backwards to revert
to mdb's & ODBC, but I guess that is the way Microsoft is pushing me if I
don't want to go to .Net.

Regarding linked SQL tables inside an mdb, I understand there is no way to
edit the structure of those SQL tables. I really like the fact that in an
ADP, I have the ability to edit the structure of views, queries, stored
procedures, tables, etc. without having to open another application.

Does Access 2007 and/or SQL 2005 give me any better tools for editing those
SQL objects than what I find in the Enterprise Manager for SQL 2000?

Thanks,

Reese

 

[Reese Watt]

Vayse,

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't aware of Report Viewer, so that helps. Do
you know of any Microsoft or third party products than can convert from
Access reports to Report Viewer?

Another question related to combo boxes. I've done some work in VB.Net 2003
and it seemed very complex to put a combo box in a datagrid (compared to
putting a combo box on a datasheet view in Access). Is that any easier to
do in VB.Net 2005?

Thanks,

Reese

 

[Baz]

Yes, that is exactly the way MS is pushing you. I can't see anything wrong
with mdb (and maybe accdb) with linked tables, I've done lots of
applications like this and also lots of ADP's, I don't find a great deal
between them.

Personally I don't like the database design features of ADP's. I much
prefer Enterprise Manager, and I always have it open on another screen while
I'm working on an ADP.

 

[Robert Morley]

Like you, I prefer designing in SQL EM, but I prefer working with ADPs for
one simple reason (which I admit may be more specific to this project than
some other types of projects): we have a lot of ad-hoc queries in our
group. It's nice to know that if I create a new View (or Table or anything
else, for that matter), I don't have to worry about doing anything special
to make those queries accessible to users. You just open (or refresh) the
ADP, and they're all there automatically.

Granted, I put a nicer front-end on the app, and refreshing an ADP when
you're not showing the main database window is a bit of a challenge, but not
having to dynamically re-link views is a major bonus for me, and one of the
biggest reasons that I still refuse to go back to MDB/ACCDB format, no
matter how hard MS tries to push me in the direction they somehow think will
be better for me, even though they know nothing about my environment.



Rob

 

[Reese Watt]

Baz & Robert,

You both say that you prefer designing in SQL EM versus the ADP.

Is there some kind of query builder in EM that I'm missing? Or do you
actually type out every new view/stored procedure?

Thanks,

Reese

 

[Reese Watt]

OK. Ignore that last question.

When I right-click and select new View, then I see a query builder. But
it's only there for views, not for functions and stored procedures.

I'll guess I'll need to start them all out as views, and then just copy the
SQL over.

 

[Robert Morley]

There's also the Query Analyzer for building other things like functions and
SPs. I personally despise the thing as a design tool, but I know I'm one of
only a very few who feels that way about it, so you might find it useful.
To get there from the main window of SQL EM, click on Tools, then SQL Query
Analyzer.

Regardless of how I feel about it as a design tool, it does have several
other useful features such as timing how long it takes a query to return
results, analyzing your query to show you the plan it intends to use, and
how intensive each portion of the query is, that sort of thing. I really
only know some of its basic functions; I'm sure someone better versed in it
and who uses it frequently can give you a better idea (or perhaps point you
to a web page).



Rob

 

[Baz]

You're right, there are some useful design features in ADP for functions and
SP's that aren't in the EM.

 

[Baz]

I don't disagree with anything you say. Both technologies have their
advantages and disadvantages.

The biggest problem with ADP's is Microsoft's attitude. They seem to have
decided to drop them like a hot potato, which means that we're unlikely to
get fixes for the many bugs, let alone new features. What's more, they will
probably do a VB6 on it in some future version of Access i.e. kill it off
completely and ignore the howls of anguish from those of us with a big
investment in the technology.

 

[Robert Morley]

Yes, I expect that's exactly what they'll do, if they aren't already in the
process of doing it. It's really frustrating, doubly so when you take into
account that only a few years ago, they were encouraging everybody to move
to the latest & greatest technology that was ADP's. And suddenly it's like,
"Oh, we're not excited about this any more, so if you took our advice of a
couple of years ago, you're up the creek now. We're not really even sorry
about it, cuz we've got something new that we're all excited about now."

I think MS needs the corporate equivalent of a time-out or a "think about
what you did wrong and what the consequences were to others besides
yourself".


Rob

 

[Vadim Rapp]

RW> 1) Is my perception correct, that Microsoft really doesn't have an
RW> all-in-one application to design front-ends to SQL Server, other than
RW> the ADP route?

Correct.

RW> 2) Are there things that I do in Access reports that can't be done in
RW> Crystal Reports?

I once actually forced myself to overcome the bias stemming from the fact of
trialware included in paid-for product, and actually installed crystal
reports component. Uninstalled it like a nightmare 30 minutes later.

RW> 3) Is VB.Net really as slow to develop as it seems to me?

Yes.

RW> I taught myself Access, VBA and SQL-Server, so I have a fairly good
RW> idea of the pain that is required to learn a new technology. I've also
RW> done a few projects using VB.Net. It just doesn't seem like VB.Net is
RW> nearly as easy to use.
RW> In other words, if I bite the bullet and take six months to really
RW> learn VB.Net, will I even then be able to develop applications as fast
RW> I can in Access right now?

Whatever you are programming in vb.net, every 5 minutes there's some new
surprise obstacle that you have to research in order to move forward.
Nothing unresolvable, usually 15 minutes is enough to find the solution
(usually in form of yet another line in yet another configuration xml file
that you have to put there using notepad) and move ahead. What's most
surprising is that this interval does not depend on your experience. In six
months, and in two years, it's still the same every 5 mintues.

RW> 6) Is there any way for me to get in contact with a knowledgable person
RW> at Microsoft to a) express my support for ADP's and b) get a better
RW> idea of what the future may hold?

I think they don't know it themselves. For now, the recommended way is using
accdb. That's where the development is.

There's another way though - sql server reporting services. You design
reports in them, and view on the intranet. This is indeed much more scalable
solution, with potential for future enhancements, publishing on public
website etc. We actually moved this way 2 years ago, and everybody agrees
that it's big solid progress. Including higher management.

regards

 

[Vadim Rapp]

RW> When I right-click and select new View, then I see a query builder.
RW> But it's only there for views, not for functions and stored procedures.

right-click a table, open table->query. That way, you don't have to create
new view in order to run it.

Once created, copy the text and paste to query analyzer.

There's no point in creating stored procedures consisting of one query; I
always put direct sql in datasource of forms and in other places, including
sql server agent jobs. The only exception is, access adp does not like when
the query is tooo big. Then I create a view.

Vadim Rapp

 

[Vadim Rapp]

B> I don't disagree with anything you say. Both technologies have their
B> advantages and disadvantages.

B> The biggest problem with ADP's is Microsoft's attitude. They seem to
B> have decided to drop them like a hot potato, which means that we're
B> unlikely to get fixes for the many bugs, let alone new features. What's
B> more, they will probably do a VB6 on it in some future version of Access
B> i.e. kill it off completely and ignore the howls of anguish from those
B> of us with a big investment in the technology.

So what. Pretty much all functionality really required for resolving
real-life business problems, was here years ago, in vb6 + the same access.
Regardless of what all those ad-sponsored "professional" magazines say.
Microsoft now can happily concentrate on such "important" developments as
new toolbars in Office (oh, no, not toolbars - they call it "strip"), "user
experience", and similar "smart tags". Really, is there much you can't do
with your existing tools in order to resolve real-life business problem?

Vadim Rapp

 

[Vayse]

I'm afraid I don't know of any conversion program.

I didn't use VB Net 2003, but I can tell you that combo boxs in a grid is
easy now.

 

[Baz]

Are you for real? Sure I have lots of tools at my disposal to solve
real-life business problems, but what am I supposed to do with my existing
applications when Microsoft not only drops ADP's from some future version of
Access, but also introduces another version of Windows which doesn't support
old, ADP-capable Access versions? Either I'll have to rewrite the
applications, or tell my clients to stay on Windows XP, or Vista or whatever
forever.

Just look at all the legacy software that doesn't work with Vista...

 

[Vadim Rapp]

B> Are you for real? Sure I have lots of tools at my disposal to solve
B> real-life business problems, but what am I supposed to do with my
B> existing applications when Microsoft not only drops ADP's from some
B> future version of Access, but also introduces another version of Windows
B> which doesn't support old, ADP-capable Access versions? Either I'll
B> have to rewrite the applications, or tell my clients to stay on Windows
B> XP, or Vista or whatever forever.

Simple. Tell your clients to stay with whatever is working. If Microsoft is
pursuing the ways that don't work, like Vista, then stay. If at some point
the direction of Microsoft movement reverses to the users' productivity
(including your productivity as IT professional and resulting cost of your
services), then go.

One indicator of returning to senses would be stopping crying wolf about
security, which now seems to constitute 90% of all concerns.

Vadim Rapp

 

[Armando Vargas]

Ok, this is one topic, that really is important for us, Ms Access
"Developers", that really started in Access and continued with Access
because it is real easy and quick to develop a solution, and enable us to
make a living deploying solutions to small to medium business.

I think that many of us are worried not about ADPs but how are we going to
continue to work, or if there is a future for us in the IT world.

Maybe that most of us are self learing and will take a lot of time to lear
something new and if it going to be time-cost effective as Access is.

Please, write your suggestion that we should lear, or start to use like:

Ms Access ADPs and SQL Server 2005 Express

SQL Server 2005 Express and ASP.Net, or see some web applications.

All your help and commerts are really important for all of us that fell our
work is about to end.

Thanks for your time and support.

Armando Vargas.