Future Intel Xeons to be designed in India

  • Thread starter Thread starter Yousuf Khan
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@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, news.tally.bbbl67
@spamgourmet.com says...
You'd be surprised how luxuriously you can live outside the US for a tenth
of the salary in the US. I think the US cost of living is pretty much out of
sync with the rest of the world.

Ok, where should I retire? Your numbers would put me up there
with Billy Gates!
 
@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, news.tally.bbbl67
@spamgourmet.com says...
Actually maybe only a 15MPG SUV.

Hell, even a Navigator gets 15MPG. ...and it wouldn't fit in
Europe, much less on the teensy roads there. ;-)
 
Mike Smith said:
product.

I would say 40-50 years from now, salaries in India/China/Russia etc.
will be a lot closer to those of the rest of the world, thus obviating
much of the economic advantage in outsourcing.

Cost of living (and hence salaries for equivalent economic class, e.g. upper
middle class) will always be significantly less than in US and "developed"
world. This is because manual labor is (and will be for the foreseeable
future) much much cheaper there. The society will have cheap servants,
gardeners, cooks, laundry, etc etc.

You can't imagine how it is to have 4-5 servants catering to your household
needs.

India is much more than the techies and yuppies.
 
Bold prediction, there, Mike. 8) The question, from a US
perspective, is can we maintain our standard of living, while the
massive outflow of dollars raises the wealth of the rest of the world.

Get a damned education, and stop whining to your uncle about your
life! ...that would make a great start, me thinks!
 
Does India still have some kind of import quota system? I recall a few
years ago, when IBM started operations there to increase the indigenous
content of computers they wanted to sell there.

....which gets me back to my "racist" comments. Hell, IBM's been
doing business around the globe for a half-century. What makes
India any different?
 
I can accept that. What I can't accept so easily is the evil
businessman getting richer while everyone else gets poorer.

Chris, "evil businessman" says far more about you than it does
about *any* businessman, even The scum-sucking BillyG. ;-)
For example - what's a big reason why it's expensive to employ
American workers? Health insurance costs, to the tune of $500+ per
month per employee, right?

Ask *why*. Could it be in part because of the Trial-lawyers?
Nah, it's too easy to blame the "evil capitalist". Give me a
break! How about attacking the problem, rather than the symptom?
How about telling people that insurance is exactly that, not a
free lunch? There is *nothing* free in this life, and medicine
isn't any exception. It, like everything else must be rationed,
and the best way, so far, that's been shown to ration *anything*
is capitalism (I.e. pay to play).
A recent news story revealed that one of
the larger Health Maintenance Organizations (HMO), compensated it's
CEO to the tune of $90 MILLION dollars last year. And for what? For
over-seeing a bureaucracy that itself sucks-up about 40% of our
health-care dollars? Is this right?

Gee, weren't HMO's the Democrat's "solution" to the health-care
crisis twenty years ago? Funny that.

Personally, I use insurance for what it's intended. TANSTAAFL.
 
A mobile labour force?

I'm certainly mobile. I've moved twice in my career, and am
still over a 100mi from any relatives. My MIL died recently, and
I've done two trips back in the past six weeks or so to settle
things. One moves where the jobs are. Sorry, I have no pitty on
those who are tied to mommy's apron-strings.
Actually Realtors are probably doomed (can be done over the www) ..

Doomed is a tad strong. Selling a house is saliently gut-
wrenching for most that they'll do well at 6% of hundreds of
thousands, per transaction. Of course ht toads will die, as they
all should.
medical folks can travel (or the patient can .. many patients already
do). Plumber is probably tougher .. how far from the Rio Grande do the
Mexican plumbers currently operate?

Can I get one on Sunday? ;-)
 
Ok, where should I retire? Your numbers would put me up there
with Billy Gates!

How comfortable are you with a warm climate? For your one year's
salary you will likely be able to afford a nice big house with a
garden that you might want to consider getting a golf buggy to get
around on and your own security squad along with driver and a few
maids in Indonesia.

There is only the slight problem of terrorists attacks and locals
killing foreigners now and then. That's why you get the security squad
:PppP
--
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If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 
a?n?g?e? said:
How comfortable are you with a warm climate? For your one year's
salary you will likely be able to afford a nice big house with a
garden that you might want to consider getting a golf buggy to get
around on and your own security squad along with driver and a few
maids in Indonesia.

Ah, is that one-years' salary per year, or one per lifetime?
Somehow I don't think the security detail are slaves.
There is only the slight problem of terrorists attacks and locals
killing foreigners now and then. That's why you get the security squad

Well, I guess they don't hire very good security squads. ...or
like Chicago, don't pay enough "insurance". ;-)

Yeah, that too. ;-)
 
[email protected] (The little lost angel) said:
How comfortable are you with a warm climate? For your one year's
salary you will likely be able to afford a nice big house with a
garden that you might want to consider getting a golf buggy to get
around on and your own security squad along with driver and a few
maids in Indonesia.

And they're "full service" maids, too. 8)
 
RusH said:
ar you sure ? there are plenty of e-commerce based realestate agencies

Well, I would hope. I've often thought that the Internet completely
obsoletes the mainstream realty business. I'm sure we're a long way
from that, though...
 
KR Williams said:
Chris, "evil businessman" says far more about you than it does
about *any* businessman, even The scum-sucking BillyG. ;-)

I'm willing to risk that. See below.
Ask *why*. Could it be in part because of the Trial-lawyers?

They are a piece of the puzzle, sure. But everyone already knows that
lawyers are scum. 8) I'm trying to raise awareness of the class of
scum that I refer to as the evil businessman, and the damage they
inflict on our society. It's at least as bad as what the lawyers do.
Nah, it's too easy to blame the "evil capitalist". Give me a
break! How about attacking the problem, rather than the symptom?
How about telling people that insurance is exactly that, not a
free lunch? There is *nothing* free in this life, and medicine
isn't any exception. It, like everything else must be rationed,
and the best way, so far, that's been shown to ration *anything*
is capitalism (I.e. pay to play).


Gee, weren't HMO's the Democrat's "solution" to the health-care
crisis twenty years ago? Funny that.

Leave it to the evil businessman to exploit it. I know, I know,
that's his job. Just don't ask me to think any higher of the scumbag
than I do of the sleaziest lawyer or used-car salesman - he's raping
the system for all it's worth. Ironic that his HMO is a "non profit"
organization...
 
KR Williams said:
Get a damned education, and stop whining to your uncle about your
life! ...that would make a great start, me thinks!

And make sure that education is in a field that's not easily
outsourced. Otherwise, you're probably better off getting into
plumbing or construction.
 
George said:
Does India still have some kind of import quota system? I recall a
few years ago, when IBM started operations there to increase the
indigenous content of computers they wanted to sell there.

I'm sure they still have a form of it, like most countries throughout the
world. It's probably just much more subtle now than before. There was a time
up until the 80s, I remember when rich Indians used to come neighbouring
countries like Pakistan or Bangladesh to buy imported cars, like Mercedes,
and stuff, because they couldn't be imported into India at any cost, but
they could be driven in.

Yousuf Khan
 
KR said:
Ok, where should I retire? Your numbers would put me up there
with Billy Gates!

You can retire to whichever place you can tolerate. Or probably more
importantly, whichever place that can tolerate you. :-)

Yousuf Khan
 
KR said:
Hell, even a Navigator gets 15MPG. ...and it wouldn't fit in
Europe, much less on the teensy roads there. ;-)

I've seen Toyota Sequoias in Bangladesh. Even Lexus RX350s (which they call
Toyota Harriers up there).

Yousuf Khan
 
Ah, is that one-years' salary per year, or one per lifetime?
Somehow I don't think the security detail are slaves.

Depends on how extravagant you want to be. I'v heard of folks on the
brink of bankruptcy packing the few thousands they had left in the
bank and escaping to live like a tribal king in some remote parts of
places in Indonesia and Phillipines.

For enough money, I'm sure they will put up with you too :PpPpp
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 
Some comments:
o Re lower prices of goods
---- T-Shirts cost 0.5-2p, sold at 6-20$ in USA
o Re deflation
---- if we get deflation, kiss the housing mkt & global economy goodbye
---- if assets on which a vast debt bubble is secured deflate, so does the economy

UK recently admitted it would have 0.5% GDP were it not for immigrants.
From 1993-2003 the avg grad pay has fallen from 19 to 12k/yr which for a
45hr week is getting down around £5/hr - with avg house soon 15x that pay.

So the big unknown is this:
o Sure, we can outsource everything
---- medicine is the most difficult
---- except where we move the people practicising it :-)
------- which means Hungarian Dentists to Surgeons in the UK
o However, we can't outsource cost of living
---- housing defacto will become the biggest problem
---- LT rates (by Fed or Bond Mkt reaction) can't rise or housing implodes
---- yet people are buying at prices which assume >>10%/yr indefinately

The social reality is best summed up by Charles Handy's Cloverleaf Organisation
which is what IBM & Arthur Andersen adhere to. A permanent non-outsourced
super-rich elite, a liquid semi-permanent small skilled middle, and a very liquid
skilled bottom who fight it out between their cost of living v Asian pay levels.

Ciscso, Microsoft & others stopped recruiting the UK years ago because they
could not afford to pay salaries high enough to plain cover the housing costs. So
they recruited 4-20x as many people in Asia.

The West's idea, I think, is get China/Asia up fast enough so the West is bailed
out of its debt bubble by a boom in the East. The 1995+ period saw housing to
capex vastly outperform LT inflation trends, we had mobile telco companies
valued as if we all had multiple phones & used them 24/7 - the solution seems
to be build the other markets up fast enough to solve the problem.

We're in a cost, not growth story - the big upheavals eventually will be in the
financial services which account for a vast amount of GDP in USA, UK & EU,
but at very little added value. That cost en masse could be handled by Asia, as
I'm sure they can at least match 85%-don't-even-match-the-index performance.

Deflation is unlikely, altho how housing pans out is anyone's guess:
o US Fed Greenspan & UK policy is clear on immigration
---- tax receipts suck
---- so vast growth in immigration to compensate as a result
o Where you have immigration, you can manage housing
---- manage demand
---- UK is also managing supply by basically no-build & land price to mars

As to where Bush's Mars fits in I don't know, but I do know we couldn't
bring out a fuel cell overnight for as much Middle East political risk. Not just
in terms of oil demand, but in terms of their economic & political stability.
Perhaps a moot point as China will soon be the major buyer displacing the
USA & Europe in Oil, Commodities & various other price-booming areas.

Product deflation is here in the things we don't need, not the things we do.
A past world economic summit basically stated the problem was not the
level of debt, but that debt wasn't readily available enough globally. That
is going to be an interesting problem - since no matter what the UK & USA
bankers do, it is the market which will set long-term interest rates.

With the UK almost entirely on flexible loans, rising taxation (which will rise
a lot further with typical education debt exceeding ==100k$ by 2015), it is
likely to be a very rough few decades. How the markets pan out is unknown,
but one marketing consultant put it simply as this - West's child is to pay taxes,
East's child is to buy products, that's the plan as disposable income drops with
each future generation due to more debt, more taxes & transfer of the real cost
of housing down to future generations who pay with pay vs bailed out by inflation.

Inflation isn't a solution as many 1970s market players know, and particularly as
in the end it can only be killed by cyclically high interest rates - which with a cycle
high or nearing high on house prices & housing debt is not exactly desireable.

West is becoming finance based (eg, GM produce v financing revenue stream),
and the East is becoming manufacturing based - and will continue to do so.

The interesting one will be education; Germany is building up to educate the UK
cheaper & better than the UK can do, and India is setting up private schools for
not just the rich, but simply at a lower cost than those in the West can ever do.
An equivalent of soon 100k$ education cost for sub-20k$ pay doesn't mix,
and salary deflation for 10 straight years is only being braked by min wage.

Final unknown is does a record debt expansion result in a vacuum after it?
I don't see any salary inflation coming along to bail it out - and even with that
record debt expansion we are seeing few jobs created of high pay, indeed the
USA recently reclassified burger flipping as manufacturing.

By that logic, what can we classify government statistics as?...
Salary structure is only a problem against housing cost structure,
and it is housing that is likely to create economic instability.
 
actually no, globalization means "lets outsource our factories to
Yunnan or Hnom Penh where we can get 16h/day pregnant workers for as
low as 20-100$ a month." (nike/adidas)

Plus pay no local taxes, no state taxes, pay no unemployment or sick cover,
pay no ground rent, basically use the labour & walk out when the next mug
is cheapest, and competing on price be it product or labour is suicidal.

Indeed a good chunk of China's shiny new high productivity kit sold to it
by the West, or created by its own people sits idle in plants. Not due to
low capacity utilisation, but because it costs more to power the thing than
it does to pay people a few pence to do it by hand.
"next lets convience as much as possible countries that its good to be
in some kind of a union (EU for example) so we can pump our stuff on
they'r markets without additional cost."

Main interest with low-cost high-education areas is in their migration:
o USA worker has 60k$ in education debt, UK 40k$, both soon 100k$
o Hungarian worker has 0k$ in education debt

So it's a huge economic cost that is moved "off-balance" to the originator.
Hungary has already expressed it's concern at this, since it never gets back
the investment it made in terms of expected lifetime (tax) revenue stream.

International tax laws are something the new EU entrants want to change,
or at least use as bargaining to exact some nice juicy commission gravy from.

UK plans range from trailer parks to "uni-style-1-room-hostels", with the
assumption that 50yr & 100yr mortgages will also be required. Therein is
a big problem the financial services have as yet no answer to:
o Mortgages must be paid off before retiring
---- UK state pension of ?67/week & any company one will not cover it
o Pensioners will need to liquidate housing to realise the return
---- but that requires lower-cost housing in order to do it
---- with immigrants & present multiple-occupancy, the lower is rising in
price up to the middle making this solution less & less likely country-wide
o Finance industry requires a minimum number of people with homes
---- otherwise the asset-backed securitisation of unsecured loans fails
---- majority of consumer economy is based on single-occupancy & home-owning
---- multiple-occupancy hits white-good sellers to lifelong revenue stream
---- lack of home-ownership hits the LT big-ticket consumer items

That latter point is cold comfort to colleagues in the car industry who at the
moment wonder if in 20yrs we'll all drive Made-In-Korea/China cheapies.

Socioeconomically the level at which one works for the state for life, vs works
for oneself has risen up thro the pay levels & occupation groups considerably.

Interesting point about outsourcing tho:
o Grad engineer is 13k/yr & 20k debt
o Grad policeman is 18k/yr & on accelerated scheme if lucky
o Grad train driver is 28k/yr & 0k debt

Comes down to votes - new minority is just that, a minority as yet.
Longer term the new minority will build to become a vengeful new majority.
Politically the oft-touted, not delivered "New Era/Socialism" is secular in design.

So a huge amount of change to manage - and Fed to Politicians have shown a
very lousy history of managing change without overshooting one way or another.

Still, we're not the ones trying to rebuild Iraq, that will be a tougher task.

If you sit at the end of an RJ45 tho, you may find you eventually have to move
with that RJ45 or see it moved away from you to someone else far cheaper.
1st-phase was process map, 2nd was BPR that around narrow WBS skills,
3rd phase is take your mapped narrow-WBS-tasks defined around an RJ45
and move that, the whole reason for the sudden political support of the Internet.
The 4th phase will be education, and a shock for quite a few academics, as it
migrates everyone available to access the best - and then universities may find
research as their key funding, which perhaps may help quality there. Education
cost is the next one to crack as it's unsustainable, medicine is more difficult until
you simply move cheaper bodies with 0k debt in to replace those with 60-300k.
USA uses protectionism here - requiring (or did require) requalification of most
doctors, surgeons & such to prevent the drop in top 300-880k$/yr salaries.

Why is it we can never outsource the politicians... perhaps we did, re Enron :-)
 
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