Files not showing as "in-use" when folder has been sync'd.

G

Guest

Hi,

Scenario - Serveral Vista Ultimate users (IT Technicains) spread over Europe
who have a central repository for user account information, budgets, etc.
All excel files, all used frequently.

Technicains needs to have this information to hand 24/7 as are on call at
night.

With XP we simply set the folders to be available off line and let windows
manage the synchronisation. However with vista if we make the files
available off line on each laptop and the technicain is connected to the
network resource the machine is still using the cached copy of the files.
Thus if technicain A opens the file from the network and is modifying the
file, technician B can access the file also with change ability and we get
lots and lots of sync conflicts. (User B does not get the standard "this
file is in use by technicain A and so will be opened in a read only state")

Is this by design or can we force it to only use cached files when the
server is not avaiable? (Vista knows the server is available as under
offline status it is showing as Online. Also we have the "Work Offline"
option available).

Anyone else having this issue??

G
 
S

Shubhankar Sanyal [MSFT]

Hi,
If the files show up as online for both users, then the behavior should be
exactly the same as if offline files wasn't involved. It does seem like the
users might be going offline during the edits (which would cause conflicts -
as you mentioned in the blog comment.)
1. Is this a consistent repro for you? If that is the case, then we could
record useful information during the scenario to debug.
2. Are the technicians working over slow links? If so, do the machines have
Offline Files slow link policies enabled?
3. Is everything except the Vista clients same as your earlier XP scenario
(i.e. the same servers, the same xls files and the versions of MS Office)?

Thanks,
Shubhankar
 
M

Michael A. Bishop \(MSFT

Sounds like a possible slow-link issue. If they're all over Europe, it
seems likely that some of them have slow links, at least. Vista will, by
default, keep working from the local copy if the remote copy is slow.
Disable that in a GPO, and it should go over the link if the server is
available, even if it's slow.
 
G

Guest

Thanks for the pointers guys, heres more info...

1. We are testing vista in the same office, connected to a windows 2000
(advanced) file sever over a 100/1000 connection.
2. No infrastructure has changed, exactly the same servers, cabling, etc.
Only the two laptops have been upgraded to vista ultimate.
3. Replication of the issue is not a problem, it happens every time. Tests
we have run: (Laptop 1 and 2 are installed with Vista Ultimate, Laptop 3 is
a standard XP Professional machine fully patched)

i. We have a spreadsheet with users account data. Both laptops set this
folder to be made avaiable off line. Now if laptop 1 opens the document and
then we get laptop 2 to open the document. Laptop 2 opens the document
without any warning that it is in use.. Laptop 3 can also open the document
without any in use warnings.
ii. Laptop 3 opens the file. Again Laptops 1 and 2 can open the file also
without any warnings about bein in use.
iii. Laptop 2 removes the folder for "off line use". Laptop 3 opens the
file, laptop 2 opens the file but receives a warning about it being in use,
laptop 1 can open the file with no warnings.

(We have checked the "Allow chaching of files in this shared folder"
settings on the server and this is set to manual caching for documents)


The conclusion we are coming to is we are always using the cached files even
when explorer is working online. When a file which has been "Made available
offline" is opened its is always opening the cached file rather than the
server version...

Any help here would be appreciated..
 
G

Guest

See post replying to Michael Bishop.. Shows the steps we have taken and how
we can replicate this issue each time..

Many Thanks..
 
G

Guest

As yet we have not found a resolution.

If you find something could you post a message here and I will do the same..
 
S

Shubhankar Sanyal [MSFT]

Sorry about the delay guys. I should have paid closer attention to your
original post. This is a known interop issue with Offline Files and xls
files.
..xls files are in something that Offline Files calls a "Sparse Exclusion
List." When such a file with an extension in the list is made available
offline and then opened simultaneously on two machines, it ends up going
offline on the first machine. This is why there is no sharing violation
message.
Unfortunately, the only remedies I can suggest are-
1. Don't make xls files available offline. The sharing semantics should work
fine if Offline Files is not involved.
2. Remove xls file from the sparse exclusion list. However this will mean
that in a sharing scenario, instead of going offline, the file will be
kicked out of the cache and will no longer be available offline.

Let me know if option 2 is something you want to try out and I can send you
instructions.

Thanks,
Shubhankar
 
G

Guest

Many many thanks for the information Shubhankar,

This really is a show stopper for us as the majority of our shared
information within the IT team is kept in excel files. As a result we have
switched back to using windows XP for the meantime as this does not have this
issue.

Do you know if this is planned to be changed in any service packs or if the
same issue affects xlsx files also?

Best Regards

D
 
S

Shubhankar Sanyal [MSFT]

Hi D,
Any fix for this would be a fundamental design change and I am not aware of
a fix any time soon. However I am still trying to understand your
requirement a little better, si we a better idea going forward.
I looks like you are not using "Shared workbooks" anyway.
1. So you are ok with getting a sharing violation where the second user
cannot make the changes at all?
2. If you do need the sharing semantics you mention, why have the files
cached at all? If you have the files cached and if the client goes off the
network or the server goes down and the technician makes offline edits, he
might still see and have to resolve conflicts when he gets back on the
network .

As I mentioned before, one option could be to remove xls files from the
sparse exclusion list. In that case if two people access the same file, it
will be evicted from the first user's cache but will be brought in again in
the background, once the user closes the file.

As far as xls files go, you would see this both with Office 2003 and Office
2007. However you should have better results with xlsx files as these are
not part of the sparse exclusion list and so the behavior will be like if
you use option 2 in my previous mail.

Hope this helps,
Shubhankar
 
G

Guest

Maybe this will help clarify my point.

All the technicians are based in Europe with only an hour seperating the
time zones. In the evening each are on call so need to have the information
on hand with them 24/7. During the night no changes are made to the
documents but may be needed to help troubleshoot. So the probability of
conflicts when the user connects back to the network is very low. (We have
been using this method for about 4 years now with XP and have had very few
conflicts)

During the day the files can be changed so the ability to see that someone
else has the file open in read/write mode is needed to prevent two users
updating the same file and getting the conflicts.

Maybe I mis read your answer, are you saying that removing the xls file from
the sparse exclusion list will give us what we are looking for? If so is
there a way to do this through group policy and can I find out a list of
other files types that may be affected in the same way?

Best Regards

D
 
G

Guest

YES! We are having this freakin' issue.
They say they improved offline files. In XP, it worked fine! Now users are
modifying the same file and it's hell!
 
G

Guest

I confirm this exact same situation with offline files enabled with multiple
users using the same Excel spreadsheets from the server.
 
G

Guest

DaddyO, did you ever get a reply?


I already have sloughs of users and clients who have sworn to not use Vista
until Microsoft forces them, because of this problem. This problem is
starting to get to be known where I am. I am surprised that Microsoft does
not realise how far and wide their own Excel product is used.

Vista has been restricted from being used on our networks, for this very
reason, until a method can be found to lock the file in use, as it was in XP.
Whatever this method Shubhankar talks about, it is not well known. Of course,
we didn't need it before.

This is ridiculous. Microsoft actually thinks it is better to end up with a
bunch of versions of the same file and then what...? you create another whole
job function of having someone going around reassembling all these? Up until
now, if the file was in use, you waited. And you appreciated it, because you
knew that it was not your turn to add to the collaboration document or
spreadsheet... and you knew there would be no conflicts. I don't see
Microsoft's new vision. And I think people are just starting to realise this.
Every computer client and every company I work with uses Offline Files and
this Vista method is going to be a huge problem!
 
G

Guest

Unfortunately, spreadsheets are very common collaborative files.
Anybody know how to modify this exclusion list? That's okay... if not, I'm
back to Google. ;-)

I don't think we're ready to take all these spreadsheets and every
workstation to Office 2007. Anybody feel a little "pushed", this time around,
by Microsoft?
(Try finding an OEM computer with XP now. It's not easy.)
 
G

Guest

Exactly the same issue.. I didnt get a response to my last post so unable to
offer any more info.

We have all removed vista now and reverted back to XP. Vista will not be
deployed within our organisation until we are forced to move or micrsoft come
up with a fix.

I agree, this "change" is crazy! Maybe there is an "Excel Server edition"
coming out in the future... ;o)

D
 
G

Guest

Its a while since we tested but I am 99% sure that the same issue happened
with excel documents generated with Office 2007...
 

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