Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges

[SteveG]

I've snipped a lot of this post to keep it short and to the point.

Now let me clue you in on something. OEM inks, as you said are
overpriced. You deal with a relabeler. They buy ink in large bulk from
who know (they may no even know who is the formulator either) repackage
and relabel it (many times inaccurately) and resell it to people who do
not know what they are getting. The ink as tested by Wilhelm Labs is
inferior as to quality and longevity when compared to OEM ink. Wihelm
is the most respected name in the industry. You do not command that
respect.

SG: WIR are indeed the world leaders in the field of testing inks and I
generally read their newsletters with great interest. Unless I missed
something, their latest test (May 2006) results only showed significant
inferiority with respect to permanence. If, like me, you don't intend to
keep printed documents and images for long periods of time then it isn't
an issue. I never asked for respect, by the way.

I am not against choices and I do wish that a reputable mfg, for
instance Pantone, would mfg refilled carts for all of the printers and
sell them under their own name (so they can be tracked for quality) and
properly package then and sell them in all stores and venues. That is
not the case now so what you have is a bunch of fly by nites repackaging
junk the get from China. And we all know what comes from there like Pet
Food Tootpaste and Cough Syrup with all of the illicet chemicals in it
and who knows what is in the ink..

SG: Why do you think that Pantone - well respected in their field -
would be acceptable as an after-market ink carts maker but not one of
the existing manufacturers? Is it just because Pantone has some brand
awareness?

On the subject of quality and quality assurance, how can you be 100%
certain that your oem ink is actually up to specification? I've never
seen cartridges with serial numbers or QA stickers on them. There's no
traceability at all.

More stupid talk. A customer is allowed to know what the reseller is
selling them.. Remember GM was sued for putting a Chevy engine in
tgheir Old carts without disclosing it to the customer.

SG: What utter rubbish. Every company has it's "trade secrets" .. it's
what gives them a competitive edge. Of course you have a right to know
what you're buying but no right to know the details of how it's made. I
don't remember the GM case, primarily because I live on the right side
of the pond. Has anyone taken Land Rover to court yet for not stating
that the diesel engine in the D3 is a joint development between Ford and
Peugot and the petrol engine is from Jaguar?

 

[measekite]

Most of us in this newsgroup do not drink our printer inks, even if
they're American made. There was a strange glow coming from one brand I
tried so I tossed them out the window. Next day there was a hole 10 feet

in the middle of your head. Well that explains a lot.

in diameter. Other than than I've seen nothing of note . . . ;-)

I just printed a gorgeous 92 page booklet (full pages folded in half) in
High Quality on 6.3 mil 120g/m2 matte paper. It's got about 80 photos in
full color. Staples are hand inserted in measured holes. Booklet is then
pressed under a 100 pound weight for 2 days until it is perfectly flat.
An exacta knife is then used to squarely trim the vertical right side of
the booklet. Booklet comes with an accompanying 2 CD set, again with
labels and liners in full color. My cost in ink (I used a full set of
cartridges) - $5.00. Had I used OEM, it would have been close to a $100
(Canadian dollars). Am I obsessed with aftermarket ink? No. I just use
it because of the price. No one should have to pay $100 for ink to
create a booklet and 2 CDs.

I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.

 

[measekite]

I've snipped a lot of this post to keep it short and to the point.



SG: WIR are indeed the world leaders in the field of testing inks and
I generally read their newsletters with great interest. Unless I
missed something, their latest test (May 2006) results only showed
significant inferiority with respect to permanence.

I live it. significant inferiority what a joke :-D :-D :-D

If, like me, you don't intend to keep printed documents and images for
long periods of time then it isn't an issue. I never asked for
respect, by the way.


SG: Why do you think that Pantone - well respected in their field -
would be acceptable as an after-market ink carts maker but not one of
the existing manufacturers? Is it just because Pantone has some brand
awareness?

We know Pantone makes great ink. We do not know what the other
formulators are because the relabelers will not tell anybody. If they
did you might find that a bunch of relabelers are selling the same crap
and then you will find a way to track who makes the crap. The main
issue if there is any reasonable alternative to OEM ink you cannot track
the quality because you do not know who sells it.

On the subject of quality and quality assurance, how can you be 100%
certain that your oem ink is actually up to specification? I've never
seen cartridges with serial numbers or QA stickers on them. There's no
traceability at all.


SG: What utter rubbish. Every company has it's "trade secrets" .. it's
what gives them a competitive edge. Of course you have a right to know
what you're buying but no right to know the details of how it's made.

I do not care how the ink is made. I just want to know the brand.

 

[Bob Headrick]

On the subject of quality and quality assurance, how can you be 100%
certain that your oem ink is actually up to specification? I've never seen
cartridges with serial numbers or QA stickers on them. There's no
traceability at all.

Take a look at any HP original cartrdige. They have unique serial numbers
and typically include human readable information indicating the particular
production line as well as data and time of manufacture. Somewhere (not
available to you or me) is a database that provides a great deal of
tracability back to ink and silicon.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Hi Steve,

I was wondering if you might know... I have never seen this offered in
Canada, where you could buy the printer with or without the ink
cartridges from a factory sealed box, do you know if this might be the
result of EU legislation regarding consumables?

I'm quite surprised by it, actually.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Thanks for the additional info. I have not seen this offered in North
America, and it still surprises me that Epson would allow this unless
legislated, since they would want you to use their ink, and make a point
of "suggesting" using other brands "might" void the warranty.

Interesting...

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I don't want to come off sounding like I am opposed to 3rd party
consumables, because I am not, and use them myself, with little or no
problems (at least nothing worse than when I use OEM), however, I would
like to add to some of this discussion. Epson, Lexmark and HP have all
successfully sued 3rd party cartridge manufacturers for producing new
cartridges, which often did, by necessity violate patents (they wouldn't
work otherwise.

Refilling is another matter, because you are reusing the manufacturers
own product. That's a bit stickier a deal, and is why the manufacturers
have attempted to make their cartridges are difficult to refill as
possible. In the case of toner cartridges, some literally burn out some
of the circuitry when they become empty to make it more costly to repair
and refill them.

 

[TJ]

Most of us in this newsgroup do not drink our printer inks, even if
they're American made. There was a strange glow coming from one brand I
tried so I tossed them out the window. Next day there was a hole 10 feet
in diameter. Other than than I've seen nothing of note . . . ;-)

I just printed a gorgeous 92 page booklet (full pages folded in half) in
High Quality on 6.3 mil 120g/m2 matte paper. It's got about 80 photos in
full color. Staples are hand inserted in measured holes. Booklet is then
pressed under a 100 pound weight for 2 days until it is perfectly flat.
An exacta knife is then used to squarely trim the vertical right side of
the booklet. Booklet comes with an accompanying 2 CD set, again with
labels and liners in full color. My cost in ink (I used a full set of
cartridges) - $5.00. Had I used OEM, it would have been close to a $100
(Canadian dollars). Am I obsessed with aftermarket ink? No. I just use
it because of the price. No one should have to pay $100 for ink to
create a booklet and 2 CDs.

-Taliesyn

Each time you let us in on the amount of money you save by using
aftermarket ink, you take pains to assure us that you're talking about
Canadian dollars, not US. Well, that distinction is getting smaller and
smaller. According to the June 2 Syracuse, NY Post-Standard, the
Canadian dollar just closed at $0.9418 US, cracking the 94 cents-level
for the first time since July 1977. Economic prognosticators are
predicting that the two will be at par by year's end. Of course, we all
know how reliable economists' predictions are...

It's too bad the US government, in their great benevolence, is about to
make it much more difficult for you Canadians to come over here and
spend those newly-powerful dollars, by requiring passports for the first
time in over 200 years. More government intervention, making things
worse instead of better.

TJ

 

[Taliesyn]

Each time you let us in on the amount of money you save by using
aftermarket ink, you take pains to assure us that you're talking about
Canadian dollars, not US. Well, that distinction is getting smaller and
smaller. According to the June 2 Syracuse, NY Post-Standard, the
Canadian dollar just closed at $0.9418 US, cracking the 94 cents-level
for the first time since July 1977. Economic prognosticators are
predicting that the two will be at par by year's end. Of course, we all
know how reliable economists' predictions are...

True, I do. It's a habit. The Canadian dollar was down to somewhere in
the low sixties just a few years back. I'll drop the $ CDN as soon as we
par. I think this has something to do with the war in Iraq and all the
billions spent. Mind you, Canada is spending too with its forces in
Afghanistan, but certainly not to the extent the US is.

It's too bad the US government, in their great benevolence, is about to
make it much more difficult for you Canadians to come over here and
spend those newly-powerful dollars, by requiring passports for the first
time in over 200 years. More government intervention, making things
worse instead of better.

With the Internet these day, there isn't that much reason to go to the
States and shop. Besides we have most of the major US chain stores. And
a big drawback is the cost of gas. Just getting to the States and back
will make the whole exercise quite unprofitable. I don't have a passport
yet. May get one late.

It's hard to compare gas prices because we use litres. In the old days
it was just a hard - the US gallon was a different size from our gallon.
So much for standards. Either way, today gas was $1.11 CDN per litre.
You do the math

-Taliesyn

 

[SteveG]

Hi Steve,

I was wondering if you might know... I have never seen this offered in
Canada, where you could buy the printer with or without the ink
cartridges from a factory sealed box, do you know if this might be the
result of EU legislation regarding consumables?

I'm quite surprised by it, actually.

Art

Art,

I really don't know why, or how, this has come about in the UK or even
if it just the UK but this isn't the first printer Epson have offered
like this.

I'll email a couple of my European colleagues and get them to check it
out for me in France, Germany and Holland and let you know what they find.

Sorry I can't be of more assistance

 

[SteveG]

Take a look at any HP original cartrdige. They have unique serial
numbers and typically include human readable information indicating the
particular production line as well as data and time of manufacture.
Somewhere (not available to you or me) is a database that provides a
great deal of tracability back to ink and silicon.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

Thanks for the info Bob. It's been like a million years since I used an
HP inkjet printer so wasn't aware of the serial numbering. I retract my
previous statement about traceability

 

[SteveG]

I don't want to come off sounding like I am opposed to 3rd party
consumables, because I am not, and use them myself, with little or no
problems (at least nothing worse than when I use OEM), however, I would
like to add to some of this discussion. Epson, Lexmark and HP have all
successfully sued 3rd party cartridge manufacturers for producing new
cartridges, which often did, by necessity violate patents (they wouldn't
work otherwise.

Refilling is another matter, because you are reusing the manufacturers
own product. That's a bit stickier a deal, and is why the manufacturers
have attempted to make their cartridges are difficult to refill as
possible. In the case of toner cartridges, some literally burn out some
of the circuitry when they become empty to make it more costly to repair
and refill them.

Art,

If the after-market manufacturers infringe patents when designing and
making their products then I would defend the oem's right to sue .. and
hope they would win. I'm a businessman and have patents of my own and
would be down like a ton of bricks on anyone I found infringing them.

 

[SteveG]

As a supplemental question, has anyone tried the continuous ink system
being touted for the R265? It only costs the same as a set of Epson
branded cartridges so could be an attractive prospect ... if it's any good.

Here's a link to one site that sells them - http://tinyurl.com/2feoet
- and bugger me if they don't have a note about the date of manufacture
on the site!

I went to buy a CISS kit yesterday but the retailer advised against it.
The first thing he asked my was how old the printer was and when I told
him he said the CISS kit probably wouldn't work either. Ho Hum!

 

[Arthur Entlich]

The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.

For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge that
they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing, or
actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will not
install properly.

This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.

Art

 

[Taliesyn]

The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.

For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge that
they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing, or
actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will not
install properly.

This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.

..... And which is done in the name of greed and nothing to do with
protecting the printer, which often costs less than the ink it uses (and
sometimes thrown in as a freebie for buying a camera or computer).
Imagine the food industry adding some chemical that would addict us to
only their product and make us come back for more. Well, this is what
printer makers are trying to do - force us to come back ONLY to them.
This must be seen as illegal and should immediately be outlawed by all
governments. We don't like being held hostage. We must have total
freedom of choice in all matters related to consumables, whatever they
may be!

-Taliesyn

 

[TJ]

The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.

For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge that
they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing, or
actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will not
install properly.

This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.

Art

Precisely my point in another post, Art. I have no problem with proper
use of the patent system, but this kind of stuff is something else.

Oh, and Steve, I'm a businessman, too - in the business of growing food
and ornamental plants. I've done some plant breeding over the years, and
there is a registration process in the US analogous to patents that
protects my work in the same way, preventing people from reproducing my
varieties or selling the seed without my permission. So I do know what
you are talking about.

TJ

 

[TJ]

.... And which is done in the name of greed and nothing to do with
protecting the printer, which often costs less than the ink it uses (and
sometimes thrown in as a freebie for buying a camera or computer).
Imagine the food industry adding some chemical that would addict us to
only their product and make us come back for more. Well, this is what
printer makers are trying to do - force us to come back ONLY to them.
This must be seen as illegal and should immediately be outlawed by all
governments. We don't like being held hostage. We must have total
freedom of choice in all matters related to consumables, whatever they
may be!

-Taliesyn

Substitute "tobacco" for "food" and "nicotine" for "some chemical" in
the above statements and it gets much easier to imagine.

TJ

 

[measekite]

.... And which is done in the name of greed and nothing to do with
protecting the printer, which often costs less than the ink it uses (and
sometimes thrown in as a freebie for buying a camera or computer).
Imagine the food industry adding some chemical that would addict us to
only their product and make us come back for more. Well, this is what
printer makers are trying to do - force us to come back ONLY to them.
This must be seen as illegal and should immediately be outlawed by all
governments. We don't like being held hostage. We must have total
freedom of choice in all matters related to consumables, whatever they
may be!

And you can choose not to use an inkjet.

 

[Taliesyn]

And you can choose...

To keep the inkjet, but instead "PLONK!" the Measekite troll -
permanently! It's called freedom of choice.

-Taliesyn

 

[measekite]

To keep the inkjet, but instead "PLONK!" the Measekite troll -
permanently! It's called freedom of choice.

-Taliesyn

When are you going to graduate High School?