emulsion side down and histograms

L

Linda

Hello,

I accidently posted this in another (wrong) group. So I'm now posting
here. If this is cross posting it is unintentional.

I have two questions.

When scanning 35mm or 4x5s does the emulsion side go down? Is there a
rule for this? I thought it went down but my scans are mirrored and I
get different results when emulsion is up or down.

Is it better to adjust the levels (histogram) with the scanning
software or in Photoshop? I don't want to lose information when
scanning. I've read scantips.com, searched this group and googled. I
have alot of slides of artwork to scan. I don't want the fastest way,
I'd like to do it the best way.

I'm using Silverfast SE (came with the scanner) and an Epson 4870. I
don't know if it's relevant but I'm on a Mac with system 9.2.2

I've become a bit scrambled over this and any help will be so
appreciated.

Thanks, Linda
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

SNIP
I've become a bit scrambled over this and any help will be so
appreciated.

The lightsource is 'above' the film and sensor, and the shadow image
cast upon it, below the film image. It would only seem logical to have
the emulsion side closest to the sensor array.

Bart
 
R

Robert Feinman

Hello,

I accidently posted this in another (wrong) group. So I'm now posting
here. If this is cross posting it is unintentional.

I have two questions.

When scanning 35mm or 4x5s does the emulsion side go down? Is there a
rule for this? I thought it went down but my scans are mirrored and I
get different results when emulsion is up or down.

Is it better to adjust the levels (histogram) with the scanning
software or in Photoshop? I don't want to lose information when
scanning. I've read scantips.com, searched this group and googled. I
have alot of slides of artwork to scan. I don't want the fastest way,
I'd like to do it the best way.

I'm using Silverfast SE (came with the scanner) and an Epson 4870. I
don't know if it's relevant but I'm on a Mac with system 9.2.2

I've become a bit scrambled over this and any help will be so
appreciated.

Thanks, Linda
Emulsion side is determined by your scanner. Check the docs. Some
people find the film warps less one way or the other. You can just
set the image to be right reading in the scan software, or in photoshop
afterwards.
If you haven't looked already, you might find a couple of my tips on
scanning workflow helpful. Just follow the tips link on my home page.
Another thing to try is Vuescan shareware with the 4870. This allows you
to capture all the info in the original and then adjust in Photoshop.
 
D

Don

When scanning 35mm or 4x5s does the emulsion side go down? Is there a
rule for this? I thought it went down but my scans are mirrored and I
get different results when emulsion is up or down.

Depends on the scanner, really. It also depends on your scanner's
orientation. For example, Nikon's can be operated both "vertically"
and "horizontally".

Usually, however, if you insert the film horizontally the emulsion
side should be down.

This is easy to test, though. Just make two scans, flipping the film
between the two scans, and the one which does not reverse the image is
the proper orientation for your scanner.
Is it better to adjust the levels (histogram) with the scanning
software or in Photoshop? I don't want to lose information when
scanning.

Ah, a question close to my heart! ;o)

Definitely, in Photoshop (PS)! If you do want maximum quality, the
only thing you should set in scanner software is "hardware" settings
such as exposure, ICE (if available) etc. in other words things which
can *not* be done later.

Everything else, that *can* be done later is better done in a
dedicated image editor. That way you can also archive your "raw" scan
and work on a copy. If you later decide you don't like the edit you
can always start from scratch without having to rescan. If you make
such changes in scanner software, that would be impossible, and you
would have to scan again.

Specifically, and referring your actual question, adjusting the
histogram is particularly "sensitive". That's because the histogram
you normally see in scanner software is based on the *preview* image.
So you're editing "thought a preview keyhole"!

By editing in PS later, not only is your histogram based on the actual
data in the whole image, but you have a full complement of editing
tools not available in the scanner software, you can magnify the image
to inspect even individual pixels, etc.

Remember also that each step in your editing process degrades the
data! You, just like yours truly ;o) apparently wish to preserve as
much information as possible. Therefore, it's much better to set the
histogram only once in PS rather than setting it in scanner software
first and then fine tuning it again in PS.

Don.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Linda said:
Hello,

I accidently posted this in another (wrong) group. So I'm now posting
here. If this is cross posting it is unintentional.

I have two questions.

When scanning 35mm or 4x5s does the emulsion side go down? Is there a
rule for this? I thought it went down but my scans are mirrored and I
get different results when emulsion is up or down.
Emulsion faces the scene in the camera and *should* face the sensor (ie.
away from the light source) in the scanner or projector for correct
orientation. Also, having the emulsion on the sensor side should
produce slightly less scattering through the film base, but this is
negligible in practice.
Is it better to adjust the levels (histogram) with the scanning
software or in Photoshop? I don't want to lose information when
scanning. I've read scantips.com, searched this group and googled. I
have alot of slides of artwork to scan. I don't want the fastest way,
I'd like to do it the best way.
Depends on the capability of the scanner and the modes that you are
using. As a minimum, no matter what scanner and mode, adjust the white
point (for slides) or the black point (for negatives) before scanning.
If using 8-bit per channel mode (ie. greyscale or 24-bit colour or less)
then as well as that, adjust the opposite points and the gamma - and
anything else that you feel is needed to get a good scan. If using
48-bit colour or other 16bit per channel mode then the final step can
just as easily be done in Photoshop, but be aware that PS is only really
a 15-bit per channel system, so as soon as you import the image into PS
you throw away half the dynamic range. If your scanner software really
does operate in 16-bit per channel then you will get marginally more
performance, particularly in the shadows of a gamma compensated image,
by implementing the adjustments in the scanner software. If you are
using something between 8 and 16 bits per channel, eg. a 42-bit colour
mode, then its a bit of trial and error.

In general, less than 12-bits per channel make as much adjustment as
possible in the scanner. More than 12 and it doesn't usually matter,
apart from PS limitations.
 
?

-

When scanning 35mm or 4x5s does the emulsion side go down? Is there a
rule for this? I thought it went down but my scans are mirrored and I
get different results when emulsion is up or down.

You don't explain what you find "different?" Which produces better results
for you? That is the best answer. If you want to know what Epson
recommends, look at the letter graphic/decal on the holder. That shows how
the lettering on your film should read when you look at the film after it is
placed in the holder.

Doug
 
J

JJackson382

Kennedy said:
[snip]
Is it better to adjust the levels (histogram) with the scanning
software or in Photoshop? I don't want to lose information when
scanning. I've read scantips.com, searched this group and googled. I
have alot of slides of artwork to scan. I don't want the fastest way,
I'd like to do it the best way.
Depends on the capability of the scanner and the modes that you are
using. As a minimum, no matter what scanner and mode, adjust the white
point (for slides) or the black point (for negatives) before scanning.

For scanners like the Nikon Coolscans and Minolta 5400, is adjusting the
white/black points before scanning done by the scanners' hw or sw? If it
is done by hw, are you referring to adjusting the light source' exposure
(the Coolscans' LED intensity and the 5400s' exposure time)? For
scanning slides, I don't believe it is possible to *only* adjust a light
source to get a good white point without losing ground at the black
point, and vice versa. It is kind of like setting an exposure on a film
camera for either highlight details or shadow details, but not both.

The scanner's sw or PS can of course do both. But if adjusting
white/black points is done by the scanners' sw, what is the advantage of
doing it before scanning over doing it in PS after scanning?
If using 8-bit per channel mode (ie. greyscale or 24-bit colour or less)
then as well as that, adjust the opposite points and the gamma - and
anything else that you feel is needed to get a good scan. If using
48-bit colour or other 16bit per channel mode then the final step can
just as easily be done in Photoshop, but be aware that PS is only really
a 15-bit per channel system, so as soon as you import the image into PS
you throw away half the dynamic range. If your scanner software really
does operate in 16-bit per channel then you will get marginally more
performance, particularly in the shadows of a gamma compensated image,
by implementing the adjustments in the scanner software. If you are
using something between 8 and 16 bits per channel, eg. a 42-bit colour
mode, then its a bit of trial and error.

In general, less than 12-bits per channel make as much adjustment as
possible in the scanner. More than 12 and it doesn't usually matter,
apart from PS limitations.

I think that my above comments and questions about w/b point adjustment
are applicable to gamma adjustment also, aside from the 16 vs 15 bit per
channel difference.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Kennedy said:
[snip]
Is it better to adjust the levels (histogram) with the scanning
software or in Photoshop? I don't want to lose information when
scanning. I've read scantips.com, searched this group and googled. I
have alot of slides of artwork to scan. I don't want the fastest way,
I'd like to do it the best way.
Depends on the capability of the scanner and the modes that you are
using. As a minimum, no matter what scanner and mode, adjust the white
point (for slides) or the black point (for negatives) before scanning.

For scanners like the Nikon Coolscans and Minolta 5400, is adjusting the
white/black points before scanning done by the scanners' hw or sw?

That depends on which option you use to adjust the white point (in
slides) or the black point (in negatives). Of course there is no
advantage (other than the 16/15-bit per channel difference I mentioned
later in the post) of implementing the adjustment in software. If used
correctly, the auto-exposure will adjust the white point correctly in
hardware.
If it
is done by hw, are you referring to adjusting the light source' exposure
(the Coolscans' LED intensity and the 5400s' exposure time)?

In *both* cases the adjustment is made by changing the exposure time.
There is *NO* capability in any of the Nikon scanner series to change
the LED intensity, only the exposure time. Similarly, there is no
capability in any of the Nikon scanner series to adjust the CCD gain or
the gain of the analogue electronics between the CCD and the digital
convertor. Both of these misconceptions may well be attributed to
rather sloppy documentation in the Nikon applications and their manuals.
The *ONLY* adjustments available in the Nikon scanners concerning the
exposure are the exposure time or a post capture digital adjustment.
For
scanning slides, I don't believe it is possible to *only* adjust a light
source to get a good white point without losing ground at the black
point, and vice versa.

Lets consider slides first, purely for explanatory simplification -
negatives have the same issues (but with reversed polarities of course).

There is only one optimum exposure of the CCD to the slide. That is the
exposure which causes the lightest points in the slide (ie. the white
point) to just avoid reaching the saturation level of the CCD. Any
higher exposure will result in clipped whites. Any lower exposure will
result in more of the blacks being lost in the noise floor.
It is kind of like setting an exposure on a film
camera for either highlight details or shadow details, but not both.
That is true, hence the statement in the original post "as a minimum".
If you wish to go beyond that minimum then you must indulge in merging
multiple scans with different exposures.

However, you should note that you cannot establish a "black point" on
slides by exposure adjustment on the scanner as you can with film. All
the exposure adjustment can change is the level of black which can be
discerned from the noise floor, however black will actually appear much
lighter in the resulting data as a consequence of the exposure. This is
because the minimum signal output by the CCD is determined by dark
current, not the lowest level of illumination. Thus increasing the
exposure not only has the obvious effect of increasing the optical
density at which the noise floor of the system resides, but of
increasing the amount of dark current accumulated. This results in the
black point actually increasing, or becoming lighter in the CCD output.
Contrast this with increased exposure on film, as your analogy, where
the darker details can be detected by the film but true black remains
black on the film itself.

In short, you cannot directly establish a black point in hardware when
scanning slides - the black point is a consequence of the scanner's
dynamic range and the setting of the white point. The black point
setting can only be implemented after the scan when the signal is
digitised and usually by software. Some older scanners, eg. Nikon
Ls-1000, LS-20 (& LS-30 pre-firmware upgrade), did implement this in
hardware, but it was still implemented after the CCD signal had been
digitised.

By permitting the whites to saturate you can scan higher film densities,
but the black point in the image (before any software black point
setting) will be lighter as a consequence of the CCD dark current.
Consequently the dynamic range of the scanner is reduced.
The scanner's sw or PS can of course do both. But if adjusting
white/black points is done by the scanners' sw, what is the advantage of
doing it before scanning over doing it in PS after scanning?

The main advantage, at least with the Nikon scanner range, is that
NikonScan is a true 16-bit per channel package, whilst Photoshop is
(unless things have changed in CS) only a 15-bit per channel package.
I think that my above comments and questions about w/b point adjustment
are applicable to gamma adjustment also, aside from the 16 vs 15 bit per
channel difference.

Gamma is *always* implemented on the digital data (ie. effectively in
software even if through a hardware lookup table as in the older Nikon
scanners) with CCD based scanners. This is *the* major performance
limitation of CCD scanners compared to photomultiplier based drum
scanners, where the majority of the gamma is implemented in the PM tube
itself and only fine adjustments of that curve require implementing
later.

CCDs are inherently linear devices and the non-uniformity in dark
current and response on each cell means that the gamma cannot readily be
implemented in the analogue signal path. The consequence of this is
that the difference between a 15-bit and 16-bit gamma compensation for
both MAC 1.8 and PC 2.2 standards is quite visible in the final result.

For example, in a non-toe-limited 2.2 gamma compensation, the lowest
non-zero level which can be represented on a 16-bit system transposes to
1.66 on the 8-bit display range, whilst for 15-bit processing it is
2.27. Now that might not sound like much, but it is a systematic 37%
additional quantisation error on all pixels near black (over and above
the 50% increase in quantisation error across the board) and that is
what makes it visible.
 
L

Linda

When scanning 35mm or 4x5s does the emulsion side go down? Is there a
rule for this? I thought it went down but my scans are mirrored and I
get different results when emulsion is up or down.

You don't explain what you find "different?" Which produces better results
for you? That is the best answer. If you want to know what Epson
recommends, look at the letter graphic/decal on the holder. That shows how
the lettering on your film should read when you look at the film after it is
placed in the holder.

Doug[/QUOTE]

I think it's best to quote what my partner wrote about the scans of
photos of his artwork.

"I'm scanning some pastels on sandpaper. They have no "underpainting."
The pastels are pure pigment applied to distinct areas. When scanned
with the emulsion side down, the areas are more consistent but less
vibrant."

That said I went to the Epson manual (for what that's worth) and read
all your suggestions and decided emulsion side down.

I read all the posts from everyone numerous times because I'm very new
at this and there's so much to learn and I thank you all for all your
time and help.

Mr Feinman, I so enjoy your website. Got a bit carried away with the
photos so just started on the tips.

I've also decided to scan "raw" and let my partner do the corrections
in photoshop. It's very difficult to correct (edit) someone else's
artwork, especially since we all see different. And as Don suggested I
don't want to lose any data.

I would like to try some scans adjusting the white point. I also see
mention of setting the exposure. I can't figure out yet how to do
either. Suggestions welcome. I did download silverfast docs and will go
through those.

So once again,

Thank you all so much. Even though I know so little, I've learned alot
from you.

Linda
 
J

JJackson382

Kennedy said:
[snip]
For scanners like the Nikon Coolscans and Minolta 5400, is adjusting the
white/black points before scanning done by the scanners' hw or sw?

That depends on which option you use to adjust the white point (in
slides) or the black point (in negatives). Of course there is no
advantage (other than the 16/15-bit per channel difference I mentioned
later in the post) of implementing the adjustment in software. If used
correctly, the auto-exposure will adjust the white point correctly in
hardware.
If it
is done by hw, are you referring to adjusting the light source' exposure
(the Coolscans' LED intensity and the 5400s' exposure time)?

In *both* cases the adjustment is made by changing the exposure time.
There is *NO* capability in any of the Nikon scanner series to change
the LED intensity, only the exposure time. Similarly, there is no
capability in any of the Nikon scanner series to adjust the CCD gain or
the gain of the analogue electronics between the CCD and the digital
convertor. Both of these misconceptions may well be attributed to
rather sloppy documentation in the Nikon applications and their manuals.
The *ONLY* adjustments available in the Nikon scanners concerning the
exposure are the exposure time or a post capture digital adjustment.

Thanks for clarifying this misconception.
Lets consider slides first, purely for explanatory simplification -
negatives have the same issues (but with reversed polarities of course).

There is only one optimum exposure of the CCD to the slide. That is the
exposure which causes the lightest points in the slide (ie. the white
point) to just avoid reaching the saturation level of the CCD. Any
higher exposure will result in clipped whites. Any lower exposure will
result in more of the blacks being lost in the noise floor.

Does a film scanner's auto exposure attempt to get an "optimum exposure"
based on "the lightest points in the slide"? On a DSE 5400, most of the
slide scans do seem to operate this way without highlight clipping any
channels. But on some scans, one or more channels would have highlight
clipping. Perhaps the scanner's auto exposure is based on averaging the
highlights of all three channels instead of on each channel
individually. The clippings can be removed with slight decrease of
individual channel exposure though.
That is true, hence the statement in the original post "as a minimum".
If you wish to go beyond that minimum then you must indulge in merging
multiple scans with different exposures.

Many experienced film photographers have the misconception that they can
expose for both shadow and highlight on a film scanner. Perhaps it is
their wishful thinking that they can achieve something they can't with
film exposure. The scanning books and tutorials don't help either. I
have yet to find one that makes this point.
However, you should note that you cannot establish a "black point" on
slides by exposure adjustment on the scanner as you can with film. All
the exposure adjustment can change is the level of black which can be
discerned from the noise floor, however black will actually appear much
lighter in the resulting data as a consequence of the exposure. This is
because the minimum signal output by the CCD is determined by dark
current, not the lowest level of illumination. Thus increasing the
exposure not only has the obvious effect of increasing the optical
density at which the noise floor of the system resides, but of
increasing the amount of dark current accumulated. This results in the
black point actually increasing, or becoming lighter in the CCD output.
Contrast this with increased exposure on film, as your analogy, where
the darker details can be detected by the film but true black remains
black on the film itself.

In short, you cannot directly establish a black point in hardware when
scanning slides - the black point is a consequence of the scanner's
dynamic range and the setting of the white point. The black point
setting can only be implemented after the scan when the signal is
digitised and usually by software. Some older scanners, eg. Nikon
Ls-1000, LS-20 (& LS-30 pre-firmware upgrade), did implement this in
hardware, but it was still implemented after the CCD signal had been
digitised.

I must confess that "noise floor", "dark current" etc. descriptions are
technically way above my comprehension.
By permitting the whites to saturate you can scan higher film densities,
but the black point in the image (before any software black point
setting) will be lighter as a consequence of the CCD dark current.
Consequently the dynamic range of the scanner is reduced.

This statement is much easier to understand. Again, it is kind of
similar to increasing exposure in highlight on film will also increase
exposure in shadow.

On some scans of images with large deep shadow areas (say 50+% of the
image), I notice the amount of shadow noise increases dramatically over
scans of small deep shadow areas (5%). Is this the nature of the
scanners, and are there ways to reduce the shadow noise during scanning?
 
J

John

Kennedy McEwen said:
In *both* cases the adjustment is made by changing the exposure time.
There is *NO* capability in any of the Nikon scanner series to change
the LED intensity, only the exposure time.

Are you sure? Try the following test: In NikonScan, set analogue gain as
follows:
Red = +2; Green = Blue = -2.

Load a slide with a white mount, so that you can see the reflected light
from the scanner LEDs when the scanner head approaches the front of the
scanner. Now do a scan (NOT a preview - the preview scan doesn't seem to be
affected) and watch the colour of the reflected light from the slide mount.
If your scanner is like mine (Coolscan 4000) then you will see red light,
proving surely that the analogue gain controls at least alter the LED
intensities.

I have been confused about this for some time, in fact since I read the
Vuescan Help file - Ed Hamrick makes a similar statement to you along the
lines of "Analogue Gain is Nikon's term for CCD exposure time". It is a
little odd, therefore, that Vuescan's analogue gain control has exactly the
same effect!
 
J

John

Kennedy McEwen said:
In *both* cases the adjustment is made by changing the exposure time.
There is *NO* capability in any of the Nikon scanner series to change
the LED intensity, only the exposure time.

Are you sure? Try the following test: In NikonScan, set analogue gain as
follows:
Red = +2; Green = Blue = -2.

Load a slide with a white mount, so that you can see the reflected light
from the scanner LEDs when the scanner head approaches the front of the
scanner. Now do a scan (NOT a preview - the preview scan doesn't seem to be
affected) and watch the colour of the reflected light from the slide mount.
If your scanner is like mine (Coolscan 4000) then you will see red light,
proving surely that the analogue gain controls at least alter the LED
intensities.

I have been confused about this for some time, in fact since I read the
Vuescan Help file - Ed Hamrick makes a similar statement to you along the
lines of "Analogue Gain is Nikon's term for CCD exposure time". It is a
little odd, therefore, that Vuescan's analogue gain control has exactly the
same effect!
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

John said:
Are you sure?

Yes, absolutely sure. Linearly changing the intensity of an LED is not
trivial, requiring electronic control of a precision far beyond what is
capable of building into a consumer scanner.
Try the following test: In NikonScan, set analogue gain as
follows:
Red = +2; Green = Blue = -2.

Load a slide with a white mount, so that you can see the reflected light
from the scanner LEDs when the scanner head approaches the front of the
scanner. Now do a scan (NOT a preview - the preview scan doesn't seem to be
affected) and watch the colour of the reflected light from the slide mount.
If your scanner is like mine (Coolscan 4000) then you will see red light,
proving surely that the analogue gain controls at least alter the LED
intensities.
No, it doesn't prove that at all. This same "proof" that the LED
intensity changes has been raised in this group several times so I
assume it must either be coming from a common origin or be a rather
trivial misconception that many people make without thinking through the
detail of what they are looking at.

So, for the umpteenth time on this forum, let me explain what you are
seeing with your own eyes to you!

The scanner scans a typical 35nn frame in around 40seconds with about
6000 scan lines. During each scan line, the scanner cycles the LEDs
through red, green and blue (as well as infrared, if ICE is enabled).
That means that the scanner conducts about 18,000 typical exposures in
40 seconds so, neglecting the readout time from the CCD and the time to
mechanically step from one row to the next, that makes the exposure to
each colour around 2mS long. Even if the exposure is increased by +2
under analogue gain control, it is, at most 8mS long. If the exposure
is reduced by -2 in the analogue gain then the LED pulse is only 0.5mS
long.

Now, the persistence of vision in your eye means that the minimum that
you perceive any pulse of light to last is around 50mS-200mS depending
on the ambient illumination level. Darker ambients produce longer
persistence. This is the entire principle that movie films and
television rely on - that you cannot distinguish short bright pulses of
light from long dark pulses once the pulse time is short - they both
look the same. A short pulse lasting twice as long as normal with the
same intensity will appear to your eye as a single pulse which is twice
as intense as normal.

So, look at the figures and *think* about what you are seeing. You
cannot discern the intensity or the width of the pulses which are
shorter than typically 100mS long, yet the scanner is pulsing its LEDs
at 0.5-8mS according to the analogue gain control. So the longer pulses
simply *appear* to your eye to be brighter - but they are simply the
same LED intensity for a longer time.

Hence, when you increase the analogue gain of the scanner in one colour,
the apparent colour of the light leaking from the front aperture at the
end of the scan appears to change colour - just as the colour of a pixel
on a plasma TV changes colour depending on the amount of time each cell
is illuminated: there is no amplitude control on the illumination of the
scanner LED or the plasma pixel.

Now, there is *one* way to view the illumination time of the LEDs in the
scanner and confirm that time control, and not intensity control, is
used. View the scanner aperture (and thus the light from the LEDs)
through a spinning mirror or polygon. This will cause the LED pulses to
spread out over the angle that the polygon turns during the exposure,
the size of that angle is proportional to the pulse time and the image
intensity directly viewable. You will see red, greed and blue images of
the scan aperture at different positions and smeared over different
angular subtenses. Of course, the polygon needs to be synchronised with
the LED cycling rate, but with a variable speed control it is possible
to do that over a typical scan period.

A simpler test is just to measure the scan time with different analogue
gain settings and confirm that it takes longer to make a scan at +2 than
at -2. The readout time of the CCD and the stepper motor time, both
ignored above, means that this is not a simple proportional relationship
with analogue gain, but it is possible to determine the "dead" time
between exposures and the constant of proportionality by a simple linear
curve fit.
I have been confused about this for some time,

Clearly. I hope the explanation has cleared it up for you.
in fact since I read the
Vuescan Help file - Ed Hamrick makes a similar statement to you along the
lines of "Analogue Gain is Nikon's term for CCD exposure time". It is a
little odd, therefore, that Vuescan's analogue gain control has exactly the
same effect!

Why would you think it should be different? The software you scan with
has not affected the way your eyes have evolved!
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

John said:
Are you sure?

<Snip>

Definitely. See the reply to your other post for an explanation of why
your "proof" isn't, and how to prove that for yourself.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Does a film scanner's auto exposure attempt to get an "optimum exposure"
based on "the lightest points in the slide"?

Yes - at least that is what the Nikon's do.
On a DSE 5400, most of the
slide scans do seem to operate this way without highlight clipping any
channels.

I have only made a relatively small number of scans on this device since
I do not own one myself, but they all appeared to use the same
auto-exposure operation.
But on some scans, one or more channels would have highlight
clipping. Perhaps the scanner's auto exposure is based on averaging the
highlights of all three channels instead of on each channel
individually. The clippings can be removed with slight decrease of
individual channel exposure though.

It is possible that the Minolta uses a different algorithm which permits
some saturation if the image is small enough. The autoexposure is based
on a low resolution preview of the image, so it is possible that small
details can be missed and thus saturate. However this is unlikely given
the statistics and would result in exposure variation between scans of
the same image.
On some scans of images with large deep shadow areas (say 50+% of the
image), I notice the amount of shadow noise increases dramatically over
scans of small deep shadow areas (5%). Is this the nature of the
scanners, and are there ways to reduce the shadow noise during scanning?
Multiscanning will reduce the noise throughout the range. Alternatively
scanning at different exposures and merging them correctly will give
reduced noise in the shadows, but that is not trivial.
 
J

John

Kennedy McEwen said:
Yes, absolutely sure. Linearly changing the intensity of an LED is not
trivial, requiring electronic control of a precision far beyond what is
capable of building into a consumer scanner.

No, it doesn't prove that at all. This same "proof" that the LED
intensity changes has been raised in this group several times so I
assume it must either be coming from a common origin or be a rather
trivial misconception that many people make without thinking through the
detail of what they are looking at.

So, for the umpteenth time on this forum, let me explain what you are
seeing with your own eyes to you!

The scanner scans a typical 35nn frame in around 40seconds with about
6000 scan lines. During each scan line, the scanner cycles the LEDs
through red, green and blue (as well as infrared, if ICE is enabled).
That means that the scanner conducts about 18,000 typical exposures in
40 seconds so, neglecting the readout time from the CCD and the time to
mechanically step from one row to the next, that makes the exposure to
each colour around 2mS long. Even if the exposure is increased by +2
under analogue gain control, it is, at most 8mS long. If the exposure
is reduced by -2 in the analogue gain then the LED pulse is only 0.5mS
long.

Now, the persistence of vision in your eye means that the minimum that
you perceive any pulse of light to last is around 50mS-200mS depending
on the ambient illumination level. Darker ambients produce longer
persistence. This is the entire principle that movie films and
television rely on - that you cannot distinguish short bright pulses of
light from long dark pulses once the pulse time is short - they both
look the same. A short pulse lasting twice as long as normal with the
same intensity will appear to your eye as a single pulse which is twice
as intense as normal.

So, look at the figures and *think* about what you are seeing. You
cannot discern the intensity or the width of the pulses which are
shorter than typically 100mS long, yet the scanner is pulsing its LEDs
at 0.5-8mS according to the analogue gain control. So the longer pulses
simply *appear* to your eye to be brighter - but they are simply the
same LED intensity for a longer time.

Hence, when you increase the analogue gain of the scanner in one colour,
the apparent colour of the light leaking from the front aperture at the
end of the scan appears to change colour - just as the colour of a pixel
on a plasma TV changes colour depending on the amount of time each cell
is illuminated: there is no amplitude control on the illumination of the
scanner LED or the plasma pixel.

Now, there is *one* way to view the illumination time of the LEDs in the
scanner and confirm that time control, and not intensity control, is
used. View the scanner aperture (and thus the light from the LEDs)
through a spinning mirror or polygon. This will cause the LED pulses to
spread out over the angle that the polygon turns during the exposure,
the size of that angle is proportional to the pulse time and the image
intensity directly viewable. You will see red, greed and blue images of
the scan aperture at different positions and smeared over different
angular subtenses. Of course, the polygon needs to be synchronised with
the LED cycling rate, but with a variable speed control it is possible
to do that over a typical scan period.

A simpler test is just to measure the scan time with different analogue
gain settings and confirm that it takes longer to make a scan at +2 than
at -2. The readout time of the CCD and the stepper motor time, both
ignored above, means that this is not a simple proportional relationship
with analogue gain, but it is possible to determine the "dead" time
between exposures and the constant of proportionality by a simple linear
curve fit.


Clearly. I hope the explanation has cleared it up for you.

Yes it has - thanks! Sorry if you've said all this before - I haven't seen
it.
Why would you think it should be different? The software you scan with
has not affected the way your eyes have evolved!

Ignore my above statement - it was bourne of my misunderstanding of the
scanner's working.
 
D

Don

Many experienced film photographers have the misconception that they can
expose for both shadow and highlight on a film scanner.

Not only is that possible but it's a must in many cases if you want to
get the most information out of film in your scans.

So it's not a misconception but a basis for so-called "High Dynamic
Range" images. There are a whole slew of different methods and
procedures to do just that.
Perhaps it is
their wishful thinking that they can achieve something they can't with
film exposure. The scanning books and tutorials don't help either. I
have yet to find one that makes this point.

Google for "digital contrast masking", "digital blending" and/or "high
dynamic range".

In a nutshell, scanners still seem to lag behind film when it comes to
dynamic range. This is most evident for slides where the dynamic range
is the highest (negative film contains compressed dynamic range).

Nominally, a 14-bit scanner should be able to handle the full dynamic
range of slide film but it does not. Even though (expressed in terms
of bits) a slide has "only" about ~12.5 bits of dynamic range, with
1.5 bits headroom left over for noise a 14-bit scanner should be able
to handle it but in real life it doesn't work out that way. The
shadows still contain a considerable amount of noise.

If you search the archives there was a messages entitled "Twin scan"
where one such method is described. Even though that particular method
has been improved since, it's an introduction to the idea.

If you prefer an automatic solution you may want to try this free
program:

http://www.ict.usc.edu/graphics/HDRShop/

It has some shortcomings but you can start and experiment.

Don.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

John said:
Yes it has - thanks! Sorry if you've said all this before - I haven't seen
it.
No problem. It just goes to show that what you see isn't necessarily
what you think it is - which is useful to remember the next time you
hear a fact being verified by "I saw it with my own eyes.". ;-)
 
J

John

Kennedy McEwen said:
No problem. It just goes to show that what you see isn't necessarily
what you think it is - which is useful to remember the next time you
hear a fact being verified by "I saw it with my own eyes.". ;-)

Absolutely! Anyway, I've learned my lesson - I'll do my homework properly
next time!

Thanks again for the explanation.
 
L

Linda

Don said:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:42:37 -0400, Linda


Ah, a question close to my heart! ;o)

Definitely, in Photoshop (PS)! If you do want maximum quality, the
only thing you should set in scanner software is "hardware" settings
such as exposure, ICE (if available) etc. in other words things which
can *not* be done later.

I took your advice but I'm still having a problem. When I look at my
slides with a Kodak projector or on a light table with a loop they are
nice with bright whites. However all my scans are underexposed. When I
look at the histogram in PS it is all scunched to the left. If I set
the white I have a range of 0 to 78. Am I making sense.

As I said I'm using an Epson 4870 with siverfast SE on a Mac system
9.2.2. I've looked everywhere I can think and other than auto expose
(yuk) I can't figure out how to set the exposure. The scanner has had
very little use. Is this a hardware problem, a software problem or, as
I suspect, my problem?
Everything else, that *can* be done later is better done in a
dedicated image editor. That way you can also archive your "raw" scan
and work on a copy. If you later decide you don't like the edit you
can always start from scratch without having to rescan. If you make
such changes in scanner software, that would be impossible, and you
would have to scan again.

Specifically, and referring your actual question, adjusting the
histogram is particularly "sensitive". That's because the histogram
you normally see in scanner software is based on the *preview* image.
So you're editing "thought a preview keyhole"!

By editing in PS later, not only is your histogram based on the actual
data in the whole image, but you have a full complement of editing
tools not available in the scanner software, you can magnify the image
to inspect even individual pixels, etc.

Remember also that each step in your editing process degrades the
data! You, just like yours truly ;o) apparently wish to preserve as
much information as possible. Therefore, it's much better to set the
histogram only once in PS rather than setting it in scanner software
first and then fine tuning it again in PS.

Don.

Yes I do want to preserve as much data as possible. I feel like I'm
just not getting it. Could sure use some more help.

Thanks, Linda (and now I'm of to read, read, read)
 

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