dotnet for kids?

[Guest]

hi...

i've been to get into dotnet technology for quite some time...

my boss is totally against it, he says dot net is for kids, microsoft
technology is crap changes every 4 years, that's why it usually has only
young ppl in it with low salaries and doesn't have any future in it.
he has 5 computers in his home all of them with linux and only one with
win98, he says the only safe windows is when it's shutdown
he says i should stick to technology that doesn't change, like java, but
he's also doesn't like java saying it's very restrective, he is an advocate
of perl (a language i reallly being less readble then c). if i really want a
future i should go lean cobol.

i myself think perl is a niche and not main stream (and that's why he likes
it, then he again he did manage to stick with the company for 10 years now).

 

[Morten Wennevik]

Hi ×לחנן,

Well, the world changes, even if he doesn't like it.

Companies demand productivity and quality, which are somewhat mutually
exclusive, so a compromise has to be made. Companies tend to be happier
with slower, less optimized solutions that can be done in little time with
very few bugs, and that can be extended easily. Companies tend to dislike
fast, optimized solutions taking ages to develop, and that cannot be
trusted. And to make it trustworthy takes even longer. Extending it
might be even worse.

You could argue that Assembly is the best programming language, but to
master it to a useful degree would simply take too long. Besides,
computer processing power today is sufficiently high that less optimized
code is more than acceptable.

He may not like Microsoft or Java, but neither is going away in the near
future (nor Linux).
In the end, if .Net is for kids, the kids will probably go for .Net today.
When they grow up, they will know already .Net and maybe not bother
learning Perl.

 

[Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]]

learn to separate the boss' bias from reality. it's ok to not like a new
platform, but you must have sound reasons instead of passionate arguments
based on fluff.

as a programmer, you'd probably know that if you aren't moving forward, you
are falling behind. these new languages and platforms are simply tools to
solve problems. without these tools, you may not be able to find solutions
for business problems and that, by definition, makes you less marketable.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney
[Shameless Author Plug]
The Microsoft Office Web Components Black Book with .NET
available at www.lulu.com/owc
_________________________

 

[Guest]

he says that usually everything java/dotnet can do perl can do faster..
(well except may UI), and perl is portable, and unlike java brings you access
to system level, and is faster (or at least as fast as) others, and it's free
and open sourced.

net is for microsoft only, java won't let you do simple things like logging
(knowing your pid for that) and perl hasn't changed in 20 years only extented.

learn to separate the boss' bias from reality. it's ok to not like a new
platform, but you must have sound reasons instead of passionate arguments
based on fluff.

as a programmer, you'd probably know that if you aren't moving forward, you
are falling behind. these new languages and platforms are simply tools to
solve problems. without these tools, you may not be able to find solutions
for business problems and that, by definition, makes you less marketable.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney
[Shameless Author Plug]
The Microsoft Office Web Components Black Book with .NET
available at www.lulu.com/owc
_________________________

hi...

i've been to get into dotnet technology for quite some time...

my boss is totally against it, he says dot net is for kids, microsoft
technology is crap changes every 4 years, that's why it usually has only
young ppl in it with low salaries and doesn't have any future in it.
he has 5 computers in his home all of them with linux and only one with
win98, he says the only safe windows is when it's shutdown
he says i should stick to technology that doesn't change, like java, but
he's also doesn't like java saying it's very restrective, he is an
advocate
of perl (a language i reallly being less readble then c). if i really want
a
future i should go lean cobol.

i myself think perl is a niche and not main stream (and that's why he
likes
it, then he again he did manage to stick with the company for 10 years
now).

 

[Joerg Jooss]

he says that usually everything java/dotnet can do perl can do
faster.. (well except may UI), and perl is portable, and unlike java
brings you access to system level, and is faster (or at least as fast
as) others, and it's free and open sourced.

net is for microsoft only, java won't let you do simple things like
logging (knowing your pid for that) and perl hasn't changed in 20
years only extented.

Your boss suffers from serious reality loss. Sorry.

 

[Jeff Louie]

This is a joke, right?

Regards,
Jeff
if i really want a future i should go lean cobol.

 

[Scott M.]

It's clear that your boss has definite feelings about any MS
technology/product and based on his specific complaints (rants) it sounds as
if he hasn't really taken the time to investigate what .NET is really all
about. But, at least we know he's not just a MS hater, he seems to feel
that way about Java as well.

The bottom line is that your boss doesn't like change, period (good or bad).

Ask your boss how many man-hours of coding (in Perl) and how much money it
will take to build an enterprise level application from front end to back
end.

 

[Guest]

don't know about enterpirse level but he wrote a distibution program (a
program which run periodically on a database table,retrieve various document
in pdf or tiff format checks and sends them to fax,email,printer... as well
as other things..

it's considered rather complex (runs on unix) has around 10,000 code lines
in it. around 1 months to 3 to write it (due to conflicting demands) it's
considered mission critical.

he was given instructions on slowy move it to java as our client went a
little over the edge and now forbids ANYTHING written in perl.
he blames the out-sourcing company of that client which closely tied to
microsoft for being good marketing folks.

 

[Sean Hederman]

don't know about enterpirse level but he wrote a distibution program (a
program which run periodically on a database table,retrieve various
document
in pdf or tiff format checks and sends them to fax,email,printer... as
well
as other things..

it's considered rather complex (runs on unix) has around 10,000 code lines
in it. around 1 months to 3 to write it (due to conflicting demands) it's
considered mission critical.

he was given instructions on slowy move it to java as our client went a
little over the edge and now forbids ANYTHING written in perl.
he blames the out-sourcing company of that client which closely tied to
microsoft for being good marketing folks.

Customer generally don't forbid an entire avenue of options based on some
marketing guys say-so, no matter how good he is. In my experience this kind
of reaction from clients is normally caused by a horrifically bad
experience. As an example, I'm working at a customer which is in the process
of throwing out their Linux systems (I'm in the process of developing
replacement systems in .NET). They had such a bad experience that they've
now banned all OSS products in the organisation. This is completely over the
top, but I've heard the crap they went through, and I can understand why
they're upset. In any case, the bad experience went on for years before they
tossed the implementation.

My point is that it sounds like your boss's client was p*****d off with the
perl implementation rather than anything else. If you have a working product
at a client you have a *huge* advantage over any competitors. In order to
lose the customer without doing anything wrong, the competitor would have to
be so good they'd be out of this world. Just consider all the risks and pain
involved in changing your IT systems. Not something you do for the hell of
it. Even assuming that the competitor was that good, such a situation would
not result in a client banning perl. They might say "we're switching to XYZ,
so try to use that in future", but not "NEVER use perl".

In any case, the amount of code and time you're talking about seems a bit
extreme for the solution you describe. There must be some nastily complex
business rules in there I assume.

 

[Olaf Baeyens]

my boss is totally against it, he says dot net is for kids, Microsoft

technology is crap changes every 4 years, that's why it usually has only

...

I have the impression that your boss have a hard time to keep up with the
new technologies and gets scared of it.

So he prefers to stick to the languages he already knows pretending that
there is no need for all this new and fancy stuff.



Back in the old days, being able to program in C++ was very cool, and it
didn't matter that it took a week to create a dialog box, since the programs
in those times were very feature-less and the users were normally pretty
experienced with computers. But nowadays, users are kids, older people,
housewives,... so they expect that the programs are more user friendly and
using the old technologies, like none-.NET, takes ages to create the
program. Learning .NET is a wise choice in my opinion. You can create very
user friendly programs very fast, although you lose a little bit of speed.



If I were you, I would do the things your boss asks you to do and not to go
into much of discussion because he is the boss and he should take his own
responsibility. Or you might get fired. But in your free time, at home,
learn the .NET by yourself. This way you avoid being pushed aside and you
are up to date when you should change company. In my experience, it is very
deadly for a developer to stick to outdated technology for too long.
Evolving is the key to become a successful developer.

 

[Saurabh]

There are 2 rules of the office :
1) The boss is always right.
2) If the boss is wrong, refer rule number 1.

 

[Olaf Baeyens]

There are 2 rules of the office :

1) The boss is always right.
2) If the boss is wrong, refer rule number 1.

This is true in any company if you want to keep your job.



My advice to him is learn new technologies in your spare time and don't tell
it your boss;

This way you have a backup in case you get fired or if your current company
gets into financial trouble.

It also gives you a bargain point if you want to have a raise. If you listen
to your boss to learn Cobol and to stick on Perl and not .NET, then you will
have no freedom to find another job since you do not have the necessary
experience with .NET. It is not something you learn in a fortnight. So you
are even more stuck to you current boss and he could pay you even less since
there is no risk that you will go away.

 

[Saurabh]

My advice to him is learn new technologies in your spare time and don't
tell
it your boss;

Absolutely !!

This way you have a backup in case you get fired or if your current
company
gets into financial trouble.

Agreed 100%

 

[Guest]

this is what i've been doing, learning it in my spare time, even took a
course from ms in 1000$, my boss knows full well about it as i'm not about to
hide anything from him, i know work at the "microsoft side" of the company as
i provide anwers to questions whether this and that will work in a microsoft
solution, and this is how presents me, for example one of our clients wanted
to know how much to it would take to put a small data entry program in an
ipaq (something which writes a table to a file and then uploads it to a web
server. i suggested it would take around 5 days in dotnet compact framework
(as i'm new to it, and against eVB), and he suggested perl solutiuon based on
a webserver inside the ipaq.

mean while as i said in the current client i've grabbed with full hands a
project and did it dotnet for a couple of months now, but since most annyoing
we've had some production problems in my other systems, it kept me away
delaying me, so they brought a new guy which doesn't know anything about
dotnet (or oo) which also takes care of sap and in "mean time" should assit
me, but i fear he would replace or bump me off, and so i will be left with
only a couple of months expirience in dotnet (and a few years in
vb,magic,pl/sql) thus destoying my future and lead to my premature demise,
but just me ranting i think.
(i secretly hope that the rumors that he is so nevrous he bit someong once
are true,which make folks re-consder but he doesn't look it.)

 

[Dave]

Is this for real?! This gave me a good laugh.

I've met people like this. If it were me, I would be
looking for another job, simply because his judgement
borders on incompentent. (I'd say that about anyone who
said those things about Java, too, which he has.)

The salary comment isn't true either.

Don't waste your time trying to convince this person. You
will never EVER make any headway in the topic. He must be
a real gem to work for . . .

Loving my job even more, now,
Dave

 

[Olaf Baeyens]

I also have to use none-dot net programming here because it appears that our
clients and especially our clients administrators rejects to install the
..NET framework. So sadly enough I have to go back to none-.NET programming,
which slows me down a factor of 3-7 times.

So I changed tactic, I now use .NET programming to create a fast prototype,
to find the cullpits of the new programs and find an optimal user interface,
and the recreate it using none-.NET. Oddly enough, I speed up none-.NET
development, and at the same time have the code ready for the day that .NET
is accepted by our clients.

I have to warn you that using .NET programming also creates new challenging
problems. Especially in the security part and installation procedure. Things
like that fact that you cannot assume that the .NET framework is installed
on the clients machine. Another thing is that default .NET programs cannot
access LAN entwork drives unless the administrator of that machine gives the
right to access LAN drives, and that .NET programs generates a
access-violation-like dialog box that scares the hell out of users if they
double on your .NET program on your LAN drive from a computer that has
either no .NET framework installed yet or have no LAN access for your .NET
program configured. Lucily, if you create a setup.exe this can be resolved
without need that a user must have a university degree in computer
technology.

... which also takes care of sap and in "mean time" should assit
me, but i fear he would replace or bump me off, and so i will be left with
only a couple of months expirience in dotnet (and a few years in
vb,magic,pl/sql) thus destoying my future and lead to my premature demise,
but just me ranting i think.....

I have the impression that you are pretty young?

Trust me on this, if you get fired, then it will be the best thing in your
life since you will have the chance to find another job with real potential.
Your boss is a dead-end. Staying there will surely distroy your future. Of
course changing a job is very stressfull and could be financial be
problematic but in the end you will gain more.

I know this from personal experience. I also had a boss that kept me back in
everything I proposed, so finally after 7 years of working there, I had no
other choice than to change company because I was seriously underpaid and
could not keep up with my bills. It was very scary to move on, but I do not
regret this, since I now know that that company drained all energy from me,
preventing me to evolve. That boss actually sabotaged everything I created,
by forcing me to do it his way, so increasing my development time
dramatcially and increasing the number of bugs because of backwards
compatibility issues.

 

[Olaf Baeyens]

If you think about it carefully then I see 2 technologies becoming very
important for the future.

The first is XML, since most programs, including Microsoft Office have some
way of implementing this.

The second is .NET since Microsoft is converting all it's compilers (VC++
VC#, VB.NET,.... 2002,2003,2005,...) and some other languages like Borland
Delphi to start become compatible with the .NET framework and compile .CLR
code. I also notice with the project Mono for Linux that the .NET programs
are being ported to Linux.

And if the rumors are correct, big parts of the next Windows: Longhorn to be
out somewhere in 2006 contains .NET related code, but they don't call it
..NET anymore???

Also I have seen new Windows XP install CD's that now also contains the
..NET framework v1.1 with XP SP2, so new computers will have the .NET
installed by default, which is a big step forward in my opinion.

 

[Olaf Baeyens]

And if the rumors are correct, big parts of the next Windows: Longhorn to
be

out somewhere in 2006 contains .NET related code, but they don't call it
.NET anymore???

I found this:
See link:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/.../04/01/DevelopingAppsforLonghorn/default.aspx


-----------------

Longhorn provides a set of framework classes that extend and enhance the
..NET Framework 1.1. Extensions available in Longhorn range from XAML support
to the storage system, and from the application model to trustworthy
computing and advanced Web Services. Longhorn and Whidbey represent two
distinct milestones in the Microsoft roadmap. Whidbey is expected to ship
several months before Longhorn, so that when Longhorn is released, an
updated version of Whidbey will be included that provides core services in
Longhorn.

........

Longhorn represents a landmark in the history of the Windows operating
system. It will be the first version of Windows designed specifically around
managed code. Further establishing the significance of Longhorn is its new
application model; its design and implementation is the culmination of
previous experience in application modeling for .NET Framework-based
applications and ASP.NET applications in particular.

-----------------

So my best bet is to go and learn .NET if you can.
And maybe ASP.NET?

I admit some people still program in VC++ 6.0 or older, and some even might
program DOS or Win16bit programs that still works on windows XP, but for a
developer that wants to have a job in the next few years, evolving is the
key.