Does Dell make its own motherboards?

[Charles Bronson]

If you want a GOOD computer, assembly one your own.
If you want a regular generic computer with low life spam, buy one from dell
or compac or any damn griffe.

 

[Gama Chameleon]

(e-mail address removed), a.k.a Gama Chameleon
says...



A home built system can be repaired 'off the shelf', so to speak, so
anyone with repair knowledge could it.

Aye, thats the point, its getting someone in, where you may need the
support level. Most companies don't need it though, where ironically a
bigger company would benfit from a one man shop for desktop support,
where a small business may suffer worse from a few days outtage of a
single PC.

OK, let's all go buy Dell! FFS. Now you are really getting far too
fussy.

Nope, I'm thinking of the way some companies operate. If they want 4
hr response they need support from someone who can get there. Though
in these cases there is usually a couple of on site people.

I would recomend buying from somwhere like Dell if you are going for
the 4hr gold support (and actually need it) for 99.99% of other
requirements someone local will probably be more of a benefit and you
can just give em a quick call and not faf around with call centers.

Any business who required such a critical support infrastructure is
unlikely to use the local self-employed techie. I certainly wouldn't
even try and suggest to a prospective client that I could support them
at that level, and would most certainly suggest alternatives.

I doubt there are many small businesses who would get a same day
response, but FWIW though, i have managed a same day response and fix on
more than one occasion when I have been able to.

The place I was helping out recently as an interim had 4 hr response
time from Dell and they did respond in the time too, but then of
course that is the preimum they paid.

You are right though generally getting someone out same day is easier
if its a local person handling support.

 

[Tx2]

(e-mail address removed), a.k.a Gama Chameleon
says...

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:46:23 +0000, Rob S


Yep I'd agree there. My mate's PC at home failed. They came out next
day and swapped the CD writer. A few months later the HD failed. They
again came out the next day. Asked him if it was OK if they swapped
his (IIRC) 40 gig HD for an 80 gig one (IIRC) as that was now the
standard size at the time

Try getting the 'non-standard' components of HP's fixed out of
warranty...

I had a customer who's PSU blew, I couldn't get a spare for love nor
money, so i rebuilt the system into a 'normal' case, and then found the
front USB connector on the mainboard (which was a proprietary Asus) was
unique to that model, so no front USB for this customer who uses her
digital camera a lot.

The outcome for the sake of a £40 PSU? New case, new USB hub, and labour
charges, the whole lot totalling over £150.

She could have bought a new Dell for circa £300 quid of course, and had
the same issues in 18 months....

 

[Tx2]

(e-mail address removed), a.k.a Gama Chameleon
says...

Aye, thats the point, its getting someone in, where you may need the
support level. Most companies don't need it though, where ironically a
bigger company would benfit from a one man shop for desktop support,
where a small business may suffer worse from a few days outtage of a
single PC.

Getting someone in? To do what? Replace a mainboard, or PSU ??

Pick up my local paper, and there's at least 15 adverts offering
services. There'll be no shortage of someone able to do the job.

Each of those 15 will balk at seeing a Dell on the desk though, unless
it's a drive that's gone, anything else is virtually untouchable.

Enter the humble self build.

Nope, I'm thinking of the way some companies operate. If they want 4
hr response they need support from someone who can get there. Though
in these cases there is usually a couple of on site people.

Do you have any idea how much 4 hour response SLA's cost? These are not
the market for the self-build, self-employed individual, and that has
little (if any) relevance to what I'm posting about.

 

[Martin Alderson]

(e-mail address removed), a.k.a Gama Chameleon
says...



Try getting the 'non-standard' components of HP's fixed out of
warranty...

I had a customer who's PSU blew, I couldn't get a spare for love nor
money, so i rebuilt the system into a 'normal' case, and then found the
front USB connector on the mainboard (which was a proprietary Asus) was
unique to that model, so no front USB for this customer who uses her
digital camera a lot.

The outcome for the sake of a £40 PSU? New case, new USB hub, and labour
charges, the whole lot totalling over £150.

She could have bought a new Dell for circa £300 quid of course, and had
the same issues in 18 months....

Who cares?

Seriously, it's great you can build your own machines and all (I do too)
but the fact is that it's cheaper for me to order, say, 11 machines for
the office and keep one for spares (not that I do) than build them
myself. Significantly cheaper, not to mention I don't have to spend a
day or two building them. It's also very hard to get good cheap cases
nowadays, you either have stupid looking ones (LEDs and neons
everywhere) which are for gamers, cost a fortune, but are nice to work
in, or you can get really cheap stuff that will fit in with your office
but it a nightmare to work in.

I'd much rather just phone up dell, tell them what I need, and two days
later have them all.

And yes, the tech support may suck, but it's probably better than
chasing up postage money for component returns when they fail. It's
getting a lot better now they are moving it back to Ireland (IIRC)...

 

[Tx2]

Who cares?

The customer.

Seriously, it's great you can build your own machines and all (I do too)
but the fact is that it's cheaper for me to order, say, 11 machines for
the office and keep one for spares (not that I do) than build them
myself.

You seem to again be talking quantity?
I'm talking single user, or SME business with 2 or 3 PC's max.

[...]

And yes, the tech support may suck, but it's probably better than
chasing up postage money for component returns when they fail. It's
getting a lot better now they are moving it back to Ireland (IIRC)...

I'll keep an eye open ... see how it goes. Useful thing this Usenet
'gadget', keeps you informed of all sorts ... !

 

[Rob Stow]

The Dell I worked on yesterday (~1yr old) had a standard mATX
motherboard, with 2 unusual features:
1, the CPU cooler consisted of a green plastic duct over the metalwork
led to a 120 mm fan on the rear, nice and quiet.
2, No AGP socket - the solder pads are there on the board, but no
socket. This one had onboard graphics. If you wanted to upgrade to
decent graphics you'd have to use a PCI card.
As far as I can see, they now use standard ATX power supplies (they
didn't used to).

Don't be so sure that the PSU is standard.

I recently worked on a Dell system purchased by its
owner in November.

The connections on both the motherboard and the PSU
/looked/ like normal ATX connectors, but a multimeter
revealed that the pins were not in the same order.

Since the problem with the system was insufficient
power after a RAM upgrade and the addition of two
more hard drives, a PSU replacement was necessary
and the owner opted to get a new PSU from Dell.
While placing that order it was confirmed by Dell
that both the new and the old PSU did not have
standard ATX connections.

 

[GB]

All this does is rule out any incompatibilities. Nothing, not even top
rate quality control can prevent electrical or mechanical breakdown.

Out of interest, what would you charge a customer for building and supplying
the following spec system box?

Celeron D 2.93 GHz 533 MHz FSB
256 MB RAM DDR
80 GB HD
CD-rewriter + software
DVD ROM + software
Case, PSU, kbd, mouse, motherboard (onboard graphics, sound and networking),
cables, basic speakers
Windows XP Home including full disks
Delivery

I accept that you probably would not spec a system like that, but can you
just play along with me, please. Can I guess that you would be at least 100
to 200 Pounds more than Dell?

Say, in a couple of years time the motherboard on the Dell blows up, and the
most practical solution is to supply a new case as well as a new
motherboard. Really, the only extra cost is going to be the cost of the new
case and the cost of transferring the disk drives from the old Dell PC to
the new case. Everything else is going to be the same work.

 

[Leythos]

You seem to again be talking quantity?
I'm talking single user, or SME business with 2 or 3 PC's max.

And for the non-technical home user, which is the majority, the name
brand systems from HP, Dell, etc... are a better value when you consider
warranty and support and software costs.

How many mom and pop shops offer 24/7/365 phone support?

How many mom and pop shops can get you software at OEM or cheaper
prices?

How many mom and pop shops can get you hardware at OEM or cheaper
prices?

Considering the average home user trashes their system at least twice a
year, this could have a big impact on them.

 

[Leythos]

I would recomend buying from somwhere like Dell if you are going for
the 4hr gold support (and actually need it) for 99.99% of other
requirements someone local will probably be more of a benefit and you
can just give em a quick call and not faf around with call centers.

And just who are they going to call for FREE? Unless you charge them for
phone support you are not comparing apples-to-apples. If you give phone
support for free, then you've built it into your hourly rate (or you are
loosing money on it).

 

[Leythos]

I don't think such acquisitions can be placed amongst the self build
category, so I'm doubtful you really are discussing Dell from that
market perspective.

No, we have clients with as few as 3 PC's and 2 printers on a linksys
shared network. We cover the entire range in size of clients.

I'm not missing any reasons why some people buy Dell at all. I'm talking
about local businesses who want attention to detail and professionalism
from a local, knowledgeable computer services business.

The local is not important when you consider Dell, they have LOCAL
repair contracts with businesses all over the country - where a local
group represents Dell on an as-needed basis.

Additionally, I don't see many mom-and-pop shops offering on site
support to anyone anywhere. For those of us that design networks and
systems, but don't stock parts, we can deliver the needed service and
still handle the replacement of a failed component - we can even replace
a Dell Motherboard with a clone if the customer doesn't have a warranty
or is using it in a critical application and didn't think about a backup
plan.

You seem to have missed the fact I have posted but my experiences of
dealing with Dell, and they were not good, so I *choose* to not use
them.

I've been working with Dell since they hit the market and there are
periods where they just plain suck at support and sales, but for the
vast majority of situations they offer better value than the others.
They also offer different purchase models - Home / Business, with
different levels of service based on how important the system is to the
customer.

My customers prefer the first class service I offer them, and not that
which a large organisation like Dell, in my experience, has quite simply
failed to deliver or live up to.

Our customers actually have us come out to replace the Dell components
when Dell ships them or when Dell sends a tech out to replace parts. In
fact, we're not a Dell authorized repair site, but, our customers don't
want anyone but us doing the work (since most of the parts shops repair
techs are not much more than lackeys). At the same time, we've not had
any problems with Dell support or Dell sales that would have been any
different than through a local parts company.

While you can argue that Dell does not provide the same value as your
self-built system in your experience, many of us, with far more
experience with far more vendors, can assure you that Dell (and the
others) do offer more value than your seeing on your end.

 

[Leythos]

Out of interest, what would you charge a customer for building and supplying
the following spec system box?

Celeron D 2.93 GHz 533 MHz FSB
256 MB RAM DDR
80 GB HD
CD-rewriter + software
DVD ROM + software
Case, PSU, kbd, mouse, motherboard (onboard graphics, sound and networking),
cables, basic speakers
Windows XP Home including full disks
Delivery

I accept that you probably would not spec a system like that, but can you
just play along with me, please. Can I guess that you would be at least 100
to 200 Pounds more than Dell?

I would love to see him provide the part numbers and prices for this
also - but, I suspect that he'll never even try.

 

[Wayne Fulton]

Gosh I remember the day of ISA graphics cards and you could watch windows
draw the drop list of a combo box so sloooowly.

I still have an early Windows video performance test program named WinTach
(1992 from Texas Instruments) which measured speed of drawing real world test
screens from Word, Excel, CAD and Paint software. Its result compared speed
to a 20 MHz 386 with standard VGA video. We got real excited when new 486 50
MHz systems with 8 bit ATI video got 20x and 40x ratings.

My AMD 3500+ with Matrox G550(4x AGP) gets 2000x and 4000x numbers on it

I dont know how todays hotrod 3D cards might do, but we've come a long way.

 

[Tx2]

Out of interest, what would you charge a customer for building and supplying
the following spec system box?

If you were a prospective customer, i'd take time to price it, as you
aren't, I won't.

I would undoubtedly be more expensive than Dell, or other mainstream
supplier, as I'm not building in volume. I've never said anything to the
contrary.

I accept that you probably would not spec a system like that, but can you
just play along with me, please. Can I guess that you would be at least 100
to 200 Pounds more than Dell?

Whatever the cost over and above Dell prices, I have to justify it with
good solid customer service and after sales support. Value for money
doesn't have to be material things.

I have a number of testimonials to that effect, so I must be doing
something right?

 

[Tx2]

[...]

And for the non-technical home user, which is the majority, the name
brand systems from HP, Dell, etc... are a better value when you consider
warranty and support and software costs.

Because they know no different, invariably, and rely purely on what the
salesman or marketing man tells them.

You'll not change my mind, it's made up. I've bad experience of Dell UK,
and mud sticks.

The amount of people I've dealt with who have purchased such brands,
without extended warranty et al, to find 18mths later they are going to
need to buy pretty much a new system because their's is no longer
serviceable is quite significant.

The amount of people who I talk to who say they will never buy ABC brand
again because of the poor after sales service is also significant.

The lady I spoke to this afternoon who was sold a Packard Bell "Le
Diva" who now can't upgrade anything so her grandson can play the
"latest games" is also another minus for these larger companies. At the
time she bought it, according to the salesman, it was of course able to
do such - but he wasn't interested in how she might want to progress
with it 12 months down the line...

Now, if you think that the general home user is happy to throw £400
($590) at a PC every 18mths - 2 years, then you live in a more affluent
neighbourhood than I, as the prospect horrifies most folk I've dealt
with.

If Dell is the right solution for you, fine. It isn't for me, or for
many of my customers who, incidentally, I always urge to consult
alternative opinion as I want them to see matters from all angles.

I think we are poles apart in our opinions & circumstances, so there
seems little point in continuing.

 

[Tx2]

I would love to see him provide the part numbers and prices for this
also - but, I suspect that he'll never even try.

No i won't, and seeing as you seem to be moving rapidly toward
'personalising' this discussion in my direction, then that does nothing
but reinforce the reasons.

I've not only explained my reasons for disliking Dell, i've justified
them. YMMV, and I've clearly acknowledged that.

You are clearly working at a level way above the self-employed single
staff member support/consultancy business level.

I have my feet on the ground and finger on the pulse to *my customers*
requirements. What works for yours, doesn't necessarily work for mine,
and vice versa.

 

[Leythos]

No i won't, and seeing as you seem to be moving rapidly toward
'personalising' this discussion in my direction, then that does nothing
but reinforce the reasons.

I've not only explained my reasons for disliking Dell, i've justified
them. YMMV, and I've clearly acknowledged that.

You are clearly working at a level way above the self-employed single
staff member support/consultancy business level.

I have my feet on the ground and finger on the pulse to *my customers*
requirements. What works for yours, doesn't necessarily work for mine,
and vice versa.

I've already told you, we support offices with as few as 3 systems. So,
with the exception that we don't support home users, we DO handle the
same type of clients that you do and we understand things like ROI and
Value to the clients. We would not be able to maintain 100% satisfaction
and 100% returning customer base without it.

You are the one that stated your ability to provide a better system, so,
show us - put your money where your mouth is.

Spec the posted requirement, full disclosure of parts and costs and
installation costs, and prove that you can offer a better solution. This
isn't personal, it's business, where money talks and BS don't go very
far.

 

[Leythos]

[...]

And for the non-technical home user, which is the majority, the name
brand systems from HP, Dell, etc... are a better value when you consider
warranty and support and software costs.

Because they know no different, invariably, and rely purely on what the
salesman or marketing man tells them.

The same is true from the kid down the street, or the sales chap in the
local mom-and-pop computer store - all sales people will tell the
customer what they need to hear in order to make the sale. Only a few
ethical sales people will tell them what they need to know and possibly
loose a sale if it means they are priced out of what they really need.

You'll not change my mind, it's made up. I've bad experience of Dell UK,
and mud sticks.

I'm not trying to change your mind - just would like you to understand
that in your limited experience, that it's not always like you state and
that there are value added ways to get the solution from the large
vendors with little additional cost. Also that a home-build, is not
always the proper solution, even for home users.

The amount of people I've dealt with who have purchased such brands,
without extended warranty et al, to find 18mths later they are going to
need to buy pretty much a new system because their's is no longer
serviceable is quite significant.

18 months for a computer is reaching today, with the newer bloatware
emerging every month, taking more CPU and mode RAM and more drive space,
and more internet bandwidth. If they were happy with the computer 18
months ago, replacing a part will not change things. I've yet to run
across a large vendors system that could not be installed in a new case
or a power supply purchased for it.

The amount of people who I talk to who say they will never buy ABC brand
again because of the poor after sales service is also significant.

And, whey they bought it, they didn't check to see what level of service
they would get, they didn't ask if there was a higher level, and they
didn't research on-line complaints before purchasing.

The lady I spoke to this afternoon who was sold a Packard Bell "Le
Diva" who now can't upgrade anything so her grandson can play the
"latest games" is also another minus for these larger companies. At the
time she bought it, according to the salesman, it was of course able to
do such - but he wasn't interested in how she might want to progress
with it 12 months down the line...

And neither can many system - if you want to have a gamer system you
don't buy Packard Bell anyways. I'm sure that it ran what she needed
when she bought it, why would anyone expect to be able to play some new
game on it now. As for upgrades, she can always purchase a new
motherboard/CPU and case and keep the other parts from the PB, this
would be cheaper than a new box and give her another 18 months of
performance (until the next bloatware comes out).

Now, if you think that the general home user is happy to throw £400
($590) at a PC every 18mths - 2 years, then you live in a more affluent
neighbourhood than I, as the prospect horrifies most folk I've dealt
with.

Anyone that spends $590 on a PC should not expect to be doing cutting
edge work with it now, and certainly not in 2 years. The entry point in
performance systems is well over $1500 for OS and hardware on a quality
system + 17" monitor. A system in that range will play all the current
games for about 12 months or until the next bloatware method comes
along. There are many people still running happily on Celeron 466 Dell
Optiplex 100 machines (more than 7 years old) and using XP Professional
and Office 2003 on them - and they are the micro case units. It's all
about buying what you need and needing what you've bought. If you buy
cheap you'll have to upgrade shortly - doesn't matter if it's a Dell or
a home built system.

If Dell is the right solution for you, fine. It isn't for me, or for
many of my customers who, incidentally, I always urge to consult
alternative opinion as I want them to see matters from all angles.

We always provide a proposal with costs and give them time to review it
with others if needed, we've never lost a sale yet, and many customers
want Dell, Gateway, HP/Compaq, but few want a custom build.

I think we are poles apart in our opinions & circumstances, so there
seems little point in continuing.

We're not poles apart in circumstances, only experience. You don't have
to respond, but, in a few years, if your business grows, you will see
that I've been right in this thread.

I wish you much success in your endeavors and hope all goes well for
you.

 

[Tx2]

I've already told you, we support offices with as few as 3 systems. So,
with the exception that we don't support home users, we DO handle the
same type of clients that you do and we understand things like ROI and
Value to the clients. We would not be able to maintain 100% satisfaction
and 100% returning customer base without it.

I am what's known in the UK as a Sole Trader. I look after not only my
customers, but my bookkeeping, my purchases, my company vehicle etc etc.
I work from home. I have no premises but a spare room.

I provide a small time solution to small time businesses and home users.
I have a regular client base of less than 100. Period.

I do not shift 1.3 million units a year. I shift less than 30, if I'm
lucky. I was lucky last year as I had an order for 10 machines from one
client. So, get off telling me you are operating at the same level as
me; you aren't, by a long chalk.

It's like Bill Gates saying he is doing that same as i by selling to a
single home user as well as millions of licences to Dell worldwide!!

You are the one that stated your ability to provide a better system

No, I did not. I stated given the experience I have had with Dell UK, I
could provide a better service overall with a system that could be
maintained by just about anyone who can fix PC's.

The latter applies to any 100% compliant ATX unit built by any system
builder. Parts for Dell PC's are not widely available (if at all) to
individuals.

show us - put your money where your mouth is.

I have no reason to do so.

Spec the posted requirement, full disclosure of parts and costs and
installation costs, and prove that you can offer a better solution. This
isn't personal, it's business, where money talks and BS don't go very
far.

I've already mentioned that providing a better solution isn't
necessarily materialistic.

I've already mentioned that I can't beat Dell et al on price.

So, which part of that do you not understand?

But, i'll knock spots off them with the after sales service I provide,
when the customer has issues with this, or issues with that, or needs
help with something else; and as I have customer testimonials to this
effect, that's satisfaction enough for me.

Posting them here is a waste of time, as no doubt there'll be
accusations of falsehood, so i'll not bother.

There's no putting my money where my mouth is. It's the customer's
perception of value for money that gets the sale, and I represent that
value for money in offering what I (and it would appear my customers)
consider a first class service. You can't disprove that, no matter how
hard you try.

 

[Martin Alderson]

I've already told you, we support offices with as few as 3 systems. So,
with the exception that we don't support home users, we DO handle the
same type of clients that you do and we understand things like ROI and
Value to the clients. We would not be able to maintain 100% satisfaction
and 100% returning customer base without it.

You are the one that stated your ability to provide a better system, so,
show us - put your money where your mouth is.

Spec the posted requirement, full disclosure of parts and costs and
installation costs, and prove that you can offer a better solution. This
isn't personal, it's business, where money talks and BS don't go very
far.

I agree, he must of spent at least an hour typing replies to these
posts, so I'd love to see him spend the 10-15 minutes speccing it up. I
just tried and failed miserabley.