Dell Hardware Swap/Add Capability?

[WillW]

A family member just ordered a Dell. Another family member told them that
Dell makes good computers, but have issues when it comes to swapping or
adding hardware. He went on to indicate that it is so limited that you have
to order the hardware through Dell in order to get something that will work.
I am hoping for opinions and thoughts to support or refute this claim.

 

[Michael Culley]

A family member just ordered a Dell. Another family member told them that
Dell makes good computers, but have issues when it comes to swapping or
adding hardware. He went on to indicate that it is so limited that you have
to order the hardware through Dell in order to get something that will work.
I am hoping for opinions and thoughts to support or refute this claim.

There is nothing to refute as it is completely true. See the thread titled "PCI Graphics" from 12/Jun/2004, we were discussing dell
specifically. They make their own unique style of motherboards that won't fit a standard case and a standard motherboard won't fit
their case. It looks like they have issues with their floppy drives and CDs being non standard and don't leave room for a second
hard drive. There *might* be problems with the CPU fan being non standard as well as the power supply. Most of their machines have
built in vga which means you might have trouble upgrading the vga card. If you want any external components then you'll have trouble
matching their unique colors and if you upgrade the CD drive it will most likely look a bit odd.

I know there are a few 'mights' in my post because I'm just going off the pictures on their website, but the motherboard and case
are definately following some weird standard invented at dell and IMO this is unforgivable. Just to rub salt into the wound you
hardly get anything for them when you try to sell 'em.

 

[Pen]

Wrong, the case (Dimension 8300) MC sited has room for a second hard drive,
which, by the way, is plainly visible in the link he provided. I installed
one recently in 5 minutes.
Standard CDs and floppies are used as are power supplies
in the cited Dimensions. Built in Video is standard only on
the entry level machines, 2400, and the small case 4600c. All others
use video cards. The mobos are not non standard size, the only thing
Dell does do is use a custom connector for the front panel,
which is easily dealt with if you have the skills to be replacing
motherboards. I fail to understand what MCs gripe about a case
that swings open to expose the entire interior is all about. It makes
replacing/adding parts very easy.
All of MCs comments are apparently based on pictures from the
Dell web site, which he has trouble interpreting.

There is nothing to refute as it is completely true. See the thread titled

"PCI Graphics" from 12/Jun/2004, we were discussing dell

specifically. They make their own unique style of motherboards that won't

fit a standard case and a standard motherboard won't fit

their case. It looks like they have issues with their floppy drives and

CDs being non standard and don't leave room for a second

hard drive. There *might* be problems with the CPU fan being non standard

as well as the power supply. Most of their machines have

built in vga which means you might have trouble upgrading the vga card. If

you want any external components then you'll have trouble

matching their unique colors and if you upgrade the CD drive it will most likely look a bit odd.

I know there are a few 'mights' in my post because I'm just going off the

pictures on their website, but the motherboard and case

are definately following some weird standard invented at dell and IMO this

is unforgivable. Just to rub salt into the wound you

 

[Michael Culley]

Wrong, the case (Dimension 8300) MC sited has room for a second hard drive,
which, by the way, is plainly visible in the link he provided. I installed
one recently in 5 minutes.

I was talking about this link, which happens not to be an 8300. I can't see
anywhere to put in a hdd. I presume by the fact that you singled out the top
of the range model that you agree the others don't have a second HDD slot.

http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/pro...=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn&~page=2&~tab=viewstab#tabtop

Standard CDs and floppies are used as are power supplies

That's odd because they sure look non standard to me. Can I put that floppy
drive in a standard case or is it missing the front like most name brands?
I'll concede that the CD looks standard except that they are black but that
is a pita.

As for the power supply, are you sure I can put any power supply in this
one? What if it has a power outlet as well, should I cut a hole in the case?
What if the fan is slightly raised like some power supplies?

http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/pro...=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn&~page=2&~tab=viewstab#tabtop

in the cited Dimensions. Built in Video is standard only on
the entry level machines, 2400, and the small case 4600c.

That's definately wrong, there is no question the 4600 has it too. That only
leaves the 8300 without it.

use video cards. The mobos are not non standard size, the only thing

That's also definately wrong, you can clearly see from the picture that
they've invented their own "dell" ATX standard.

Dell does do is use a custom connector for the front panel,

Sounds dodgy. Does this fit in a standard case? Can I get one from any
computer shop?

motherboards. I fail to understand what MCs gripe about a case
that swings open to expose the entire interior is all about. It makes
replacing/adding parts very easy.

The case is probably ok if you like that sort of thing but it is a complete
pain in the butt if you work on a range of computers. Every time you have to
work on a name brand you've got to work out their wacky design of case. Why
can't they just use the standard design where both the sides come off like a
normal computer? It's like VHS, it's good because everyone uses it.

Most of the stuff they do, such as the case, is passable but the real killer
is inventing their own brand of ATX and having their own custom mobos made.
I'd be very interested in you providing me a link to the site of the
motherboard manufactures where I can download drives for the motherboards of
each of their 4 ranges of computers. I tried to do this for an asus board
that was in a HP but found it wasn't listed.

All of MCs comments are apparently based on pictures from the
Dell web site, which he has trouble interpreting.

The fact that I can find so many faults without even having a dell in front
me speaks volumes. I'm certain if I did I could find plenty of other dodgy
stuff that they do. What are you not telling me? Is the CPU fan
standard? Do you need sliders to install a second CDRom (which the customer
can never find so you have to order them from dell)?

You didn't mention the poor resale value. Generally the second hand market
has greater knowledge and they know to avoid the name brands.

Michael Culley

 

[Mike Walsh]

Dell uses many proprietary components e.g. power supplies and motherboards.
There budget PCs can be severely limited in upgrades e.g. no AGP slot or empty drive bays.

A family member just ordered a Dell. Another family member told them that
Dell makes good computers, but have issues when it comes to swapping or
adding hardware. He went on to indicate that it is so limited that you have
to order the hardware through Dell in order to get something that will work.
I am hoping for opinions and thoughts to support or refute this claim.

--

When replying by Email include NewSGrouP (case sensitive) in Subject

Mike Walsh
West Palm Beach, Florida, U.S.A.

 

[kony]

I was talking about this link, which happens not to be an 8300. I can't see
anywhere to put in a hdd. I presume by the fact that you singled out the top
of the range model that you agree the others don't have a second HDD slot.

http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/pro...=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn&~page=2&~tab=viewstab#tabtop

Looks like there are two HDD mounts, vertically attached to the front wall
of the case. The inner HDD cannot be cooled very well with that
arrangement, but then Dell is concerned with what THEY put in the system,
not what is added later.

That's odd because they sure look non standard to me.

??? Looks like any other except no label facing out on the PSU.

Can I put that floppy
drive in a standard case or is it missing the front like most name brands?
I'll concede that the CD looks standard except that they are black but that
is a pita.

Floppy does look like it's missing the front bezel, but it's not a big
deal, it could still be used in many other OEM cases, but then a floppy
drive is only $10 if you catch them on sale... most people already have
one with a bezel anyway unless they throw out all of their old gear, which
IMHO isn't a great idea since it's always good to have a backup system
even if it happened to be old and (relatively) slow.

As for the power supply, are you sure I can put any power supply in this
one? What if it has a power outlet as well, should I cut a hole in the case?

There are no decent ATX power supplies that incorporate a power outlet. A
similar issue might be if the Dell unit has no on/off switch, but it's not
that big of a deal either, these days many decent PSU have pictures on the
'net, you can see the back, whether it'd fit in a Dell case. Primarily,
if you want it (case) most compatible, stay away from their smaller cases
and stick with the mATX to full ATX versions. Check the back of the case
to see if it uses standard PSU, where it's mounted, and for the standard
I/O port shield that pops out.

What if the fan is slightly raised like some power supplies?

http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/pro...=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn&~page=2&~tab=viewstab#tabtop

That picture shows a completely standard PSU mounted, what did you mean by
"slightly raised"?

That's definately wrong, there is no question the 4600 has it too. That only
leaves the 8300 without it.

Remembering our previous posts about integrated video, some people won't
mind it, likely a larger percentage of those buying a Dell wouldn't mind
compared to home builders, but it is an important issue, to know/seek info
on what video card is installed.

That's also definately wrong, you can clearly see from the picture that
they've invented their own "dell" ATX standard.

How so? The rear ports are different, but if the I/O shield pops out that
isn't a problem. It looks a bit odd to see 5 rear bay slots, but there
may be an explaination for that, that it is mATX and simply has more slots
than needed for most mATX setups.

Sounds dodgy. Does this fit in a standard case? Can I get one from any
computer shop?

Does what fit, the motherboard? It should mount in a standard case fine.
The main thing is that the manual would need specific the pinout of the
front panel, USB, audio, etc, else a user with the ability to figure it
out themselves... not hard, just extra work, and maybe necessary to
acquire some wire plugs if the originals don't have the right pin
configuration or number of pins to fit the Dell board or vice-versa, if
putting a non "Dell" board in a Dell case. There may easily be little
issues with any OEM case but for the most part they can be solved, it just
takes a bit more time... like anything else you can put some time into it
or spend more $ buying replacement parts.

The case is probably ok if you like that sort of thing but it is a complete
pain in the butt if you work on a range of computers. Every time you have to
work on a name brand you've got to work out their wacky design of case. Why
can't they just use the standard design where both the sides come off like a
normal computer? It's like VHS, it's good because everyone uses it.

I kinda like their swing-open cases, except for one thing... if you were
to overclock, or swap in higher performance, higher heat parts later, you
have limited options for increasing airflow unless you do a LOT of
modifications, potentially disfiguring the case. Certainly most OEM
systems these days are not meant for a complete overhaul, only swapping a
part or two or adding a drive... it's not so bad though, often someone
buying such a system will be wanting to replace the whole thing anyway,
when the time comes.

Most of the stuff they do, such as the case, is passable but the real killer
is inventing their own brand of ATX and having their own custom mobos made.
I'd be very interested in you providing me a link to the site of the
motherboard manufactures where I can download drives for the motherboards of
each of their 4 ranges of computers. I tried to do this for an asus board
that was in a HP but found it wasn't listed.

Drivers?
That is the easiest part, you do not need to fool around with special
drivers, all the pros know that a Driver is not based on who made the
board/system except in very limited, very special features, otherwise the
standard chipset drivers from the respective chip manufacturer are even
better than an OEM driver, as they are updated more often. The bios on
the other hand is another matter, often it's more difficult to use due to
settings omitted, limited ability to flash a non-OEM bios unless you have
advanced knowledge about how to do it, or if the bios is soldered onto the
board you could end up scrapping the board if an emergency flash won't
recover any failure.

Even worse though is that the OEM-bundled software, if a restoration
image, depends on identifying the system, or at least that's has it's been
for many years. So, if the motherboard were to die, you might be choosing
between buying another board from (whichever OEM) else lose the ability to
reinstall the OS and apps. Also instead of being able to buy a newer
board with backwards support for memory and CPU, but also forwards support
for a better CPU upgrade, you're stuck with same technology you started
with, even after it's depreciated tech it still carries a premium price
from that OEM. Such are a few of the reasons so many people roll their
own instead of letting the OEMs do it, even when the total build cost
isn't any lower, maybe even higher initially, offset with lower upgrade
costs later.

The fact that I can find so many faults without even having a dell in front
me speaks volumes. I'm certain if I did I could find plenty of other dodgy
stuff that they do. What are you not telling me? Is the CPU fan
standard? Do you need sliders to install a second CDRom (which the customer
can never find so you have to order them from dell)?

It would seem safe to say a Dell is not for you, but then some people
don't even want to know what's inside one, they just want someone else
they rely on to tell them if it's "good" or not... LOL, they dont' want to
think about it at all.

You didn't mention the poor resale value. Generally the second hand market
has greater knowledge and they know to avoid the name brands.

I love that they have poor resale value. I have OEM boxes that were free
or nearly so because of it, only needing a leaf blower and some TLC before
redeployed.

 

[Michael Culley]

Floppy does look like it's missing the front bezel, but it's not a big
deal, it could still be used in many other OEM cases, but then a floppy
drive is only $10 if you catch them on sale... most people already have
one with a bezel anyway unless they throw out all of their old gear, which
IMHO isn't a great idea since it's always good to have a backup system
even if it happened to be old and (relatively) slow.

It's just another hassle/cost. Most dell users will be paying someone to fix it and they will want to see that person for the
shortest amount of time. All of these little problems add up to extra time.

There are no decent ATX power supplies that incorporate a power outlet. A
similar issue might be if the Dell unit has no on/off switch, but it's not
that big of a deal either, these days many decent PSU have pictures on the

Again another hassle/cost that's not really necessary.

That picture shows a completely standard PSU mounted, what did you mean by
"slightly raised"?

I'm talking about the situation of a faulty power supply in the dell, if the new PSU has a fan that is slightly raised it won't fit.

Remembering our previous posts about integrated video, some people won't
mind it, likely a larger percentage of those buying a Dell wouldn't mind
compared to home builders, but it is an important issue, to know/seek info
on what video card is installed.

Possibly, but I think if they are educated about the possible problems they would never go with on board video. Only those who don't
understand the pitfalls will buy it and that is misleading IMO.

How so? The rear ports are different, but if the I/O shield pops out that
isn't a problem. It looks a bit odd to see 5 rear bay slots, but there
may be an explaination for that, that it is mATX and simply has more slots
than needed for most mATX setups.

The problem is the rear ports are different. Often the shields don't interchange between cases so you have to leave it out. Or if
you buy a new mobo you don't get a shield. You might be able to get around this but again it is time/hassle/cost.

Does what fit, the motherboard? It should mount in a standard case fine.
The main thing is that the manual would need specific the pinout of the
front panel, USB, audio, etc, else a user with the ability to figure it
out themselves... not hard, just extra work, and maybe necessary to
acquire some wire plugs if the originals don't have the right pin
configuration or number of pins to fit the Dell board or vice-versa, if
putting a non "Dell" board in a Dell case. There may easily be little
issues with any OEM case but for the most part they can be solved, it just
takes a bit more time... like anything else you can put some time into it
or spend more $ buying replacement parts.

Again time/hassle/cost.

Drivers?
That is the easiest part, you do not need to fool around with special
drivers, all the pros know that a Driver is not based on who made the
board/system except in very limited, very special features, otherwise the
standard chipset drivers from the respective chip manufacturer are even
better than an OEM driver, as they are updated more often. The bios on
the other hand is another matter, often it's more difficult to use due to
settings omitted, limited ability to flash a non-OEM bios unless you have
advanced knowledge about how to do it, or if the bios is soldered onto the
board you could end up scrapping the board if an emergency flash won't
recover any failure.

I've had chipset drivers not work with an ASUS vga card. Generally I prefer to use the driver from the manufacturer of the board
because you don't know what they've done.

Even worse though is that the OEM-bundled software, if a restoration
image, depends on identifying the system, or at least that's has it's been
for many years. So, if the motherboard were to die, you might be choosing
between buying another board from (whichever OEM) else lose the ability to
reinstall the OS and apps. Also instead of being able to buy a newer
board with backwards support for memory and CPU, but also forwards support
for a better CPU upgrade, you're stuck with same technology you started
with, even after it's depreciated tech it still carries a premium price
from that OEM. Such are a few of the reasons so many people roll their
own instead of letting the OEMs do it, even when the total build cost
isn't any lower, maybe even higher initially, offset with lower upgrade
costs later.

Very very dodgy

It would seem safe to say a Dell is not for you


, but then some people
don't even want to know what's inside one, they just want someone else
they rely on to tell them if it's "good" or not... LOL, they dont' want to
think about it at all.

These are the sort of people who buy a dell and when I tell 'em they can't just stick in a standard part they are genuinely
suprised. Basically they have been deceived. If they were aware of these problems they would have never bought it. When I sell a
system I always start with the most basic of everything, dead boring square beige case, cheapo standard kb, ms mouse, sony cd, agp
card etc. Sometimes they ask if it can be made cheaper and I give them the options. I don't sell a lot of pcs as it's not my main
line of work but I've never had anyone go for the cheaper systems. Once properly educated they just want all the standard stuff. I
bet if I could talk to every person buying a dell I could talk 9 out of 10 of them out of it. So most of the people who buy dells do
so because they don't have the full information.

Even the black case on it's own is bad enough. I've never had anyone want black but if I supplied it as an option and told them
about the possibility that they might have trouble finding black stuff to match I would never sell a single unit.

 

[kony]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:05:38 +1000, "Michael Culley"

I'm talking about the situation of a faulty power supply in the dell, if the new PSU has a fan that is slightly raised it won't fit.

I still don't understand what "slightly raised" means. That is a standard
power supply they pictured, the fan (talking about the one on the rear?)
is mounted such that it's face is on the entire height of the unit, but
flush with the end. It might seen different because the Dell case has the
metal wall on the other side, where the outlet is, slightly lower, and
that goes toward what I mentioned about whether the replacement had a
power switch, which would result in either that switch or the AC outlet
being slightly higher up, or at least they often are. The fan though,
looks 100% compatible, that any power supply you tried would fit in it's
place if the fan were the only issue.

Possibly, but I think if they are educated about the possible problems they would never go with on board video. Only those who don't
understand the pitfalls will buy it and that is misleading IMO.

Many people don't even know they have integrated video, but do, and
haven't had any problems... just depends on the user's needs and
particular situation. Likewise, many people not only don't need utmost
performance, but would actually rather have lower performance at same
price, if it meant the fan spun slower, or elimination of a video card
fan, so it's quieter. That's not as much as issue on Dells as many clone
boxes though, Dell's video cards are often quiet but then again I have a
stack of old Dell Geforce1 cards that died, most with seized up fans.

The problem is the rear ports are different. Often the shields don't interchange between cases so you have to leave it out. Or if
you buy a new mobo you don't get a shield. You might be able to get around this but again it is time/hassle/cost.

The shields usually do interchange fine if they are removable at all. In
the past, OEMs like Gateway often used port-holes that were stamped into
the wall of the case, but more and more that's not convenient to do and
the standard rear port is used... typically the odds are higher it's
snap-out and standard if it's the typical rectangular rows of ports,
instead of the narrower, longer row as used on the ultra slim or NLX/LPX
types of the past, which often used risers but these days the lower part
counts and higher integration can allow use without risers, like with
mini ATX or similar OEM deviations, which are exactly the types of systems
that are disposable for the most part, only good for their size and low
cost.

Again time/hassle/cost.

But when isn't it time/hassle/cost?
I have a 100% standard case in front of me that I'm working on, and all I
wanted that was particularly unique was a gameport AND flash media reader
in the same bay. To achieve that I ended up having to make cables, cut
and sand, dig out the standoffs and epoxy to make a custom mounting, and
maybe even paint it later. The more picky you are the more
time/hassle/cost you'll encounter, OEM or not.

I've had chipset drivers not work with an ASUS vga card. Generally I prefer to use the driver from the manufacturer of the board
because you don't know what they've done.

It sounds like a very isolated situation, incident. I never use the card
manufacturer's drivers, on any card, haven't for many years.

Even the black case on it's own is bad enough. I've never had anyone want black but if I supplied it as an option and told them
about the possibility that they might have trouble finding black stuff to match I would never sell a single unit.

If only it were a black case, but it's Dell grey, which seems almost but
not quite the same as HP grey, which is almost the same but not quite as
....

I'd be happy if they all went to a light grey, even clone boxes... never
did understand why beige was the color of choice in the earlier years,
maybe that's just all they could do to keep the plastic looking the same
color after UV hit it.

 

[Michael Culley]

I still don't understand what "slightly raised" means. That is a standard
power supply they pictured, the fan (talking about the one on the rear?)
is mounted such that it's face is on the entire height of the unit, but
flush with the end. It might seen different because the Dell case has the
metal wall on the other side, where the outlet is, slightly lower, and
that goes toward what I mentioned about whether the replacement had a
power switch, which would result in either that switch or the AC outlet
being slightly higher up, or at least they often are. The fan though,
looks 100% compatible, that any power supply you tried would fit in it's
place if the fan were the only issue.

I'm not talking about the dell power supply being raised, I'm talking about the situation where you need to replace the dell power
supply with a clone one. The dell case in the link (are you looking at the wrong link?) only had a hole for the power inlet and the
yankee/aussie voltage switch. If you need to replace the power supply then any small difference and the new one won't fit. That
difference could be many things such as a power outlet, power switch, a raised fan etc.

But when isn't it time/hassle/cost?
I have a 100% standard case in front of me that I'm working on, and all I
wanted that was particularly unique was a gameport AND flash media reader
in the same bay. To achieve that I ended up having to make cables, cut
and sand, dig out the standoffs and epoxy to make a custom mounting, and
maybe even paint it later. The more picky you are the more
time/hassle/cost you'll encounter, OEM or not.

Your stretching a bit here Most of the time standard cases are not an issue. The chances of encountering a problem with a name
brand case is much higher.

If only it were a black case, but it's Dell grey, which seems almost but
not quite the same as HP grey, which is almost the same but not quite as
...

Even worse that I thought ......

I'd be happy if they all went to a light grey, even clone boxes... never
did understand why beige was the color of choice in the earlier years,

I don't give a shit what color it is as long as it's standard If everyone used grey I'd be happy with grey.

maybe that's just all they could do to keep the plastic looking the same
color after UV hit it.

Beige might be a cheaper paint....

 

[kony]

I'm not talking about the dell power supply being raised, I'm talking about the situation where you need to replace the dell power
supply with a clone one. The dell case in the link (are you looking at the wrong link?) only had a hole for the power inlet and the
yankee/aussie voltage switch. If you need to replace the power supply then any small difference and the new one won't fit. That
difference could be many things such as a power outlet, power switch, a raised fan etc.

In this picture,
http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/pro...=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn&~page=2&~tab=viewstab#tabtop
there is nothing about the fan that deviates from standard. The fan is
not an issue, but the power outlet and/or switch might be, if the
replacement PSU isn't seen online to confirm that works. Even so, it
wouldn't be terribly hard to make *amything* work, just a few more minutes
or a bit more time. Certainly it is a minor issue that would need
overcome, but compared to some past Compaq or HP cases, it is pretty good.

Your stretching a bit here Most of the time standard cases are not an issue. The chances of encountering a problem with a name
brand case is much higher.

Possibly, but the Dell case pictured isn't all that proprietary, could to
some people even seem more "normal" than some
who-knows-what-you're-getting generic case bought online. At least they
don't use their proprietary pinout on a standard 20-pin ATX connector
anymore, at least I haven't seen it used on anything within the past few
years' models.

 

[Michael Culley]

In this picture,
http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/pro...=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn&~page=2&~tab=viewstab#tabtop
there is nothing about the fan that deviates from standard. The fan is
not an issue, but the power outlet and/or switch might be, if the
replacement PSU isn't seen online to confirm that works.

It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks to me like the back of the case only has a cutout for the power inlet and
110/240volt switch. It looks to me like the grill for the fan is punched into the case. So if the fan for the *replacement* power
supply is raised it won't fit.

Even so, it
wouldn't be terribly hard to make *amything* work, just a few more minutes
or a bit more time. Certainly it is a minor issue that would need
overcome, but compared to some past Compaq or HP cases, it is pretty good.

I don't carry a hacksaw or grinder with me. If a power supply won't fit I will just tell the customer it won't fit and they need a
whole new case. I'm not going to modify a case and I'm not going to search through online photos to find one that looks like it
would fit just to find it doesn't. In this situation I would quickly try one that I had and refer them to dell if it didn't fit.

Possibly, but the Dell case pictured isn't all that proprietary, could to
some people even seem more "normal" than some
who-knows-what-you're-getting generic case bought online. At least they

It's certainly a lot better than what I've seen before from some of the name brands, but it's still that little bit different. Those
little difference can add up to a lot of time and hassle and at $x per hour it very quickly adds up to the cost of a cheap PC.

At least they
don't use their proprietary pinout on a standard 20-pin ATX connector
anymore, at least I haven't seen it used on anything within the past few
years' models.

OMG!!! They did this??? LOL!!!! This should be illegal.

 

[kony]

It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks to me like the back of the case only has a cutout for the power inlet and
110/240volt switch. It looks to me like the grill for the fan is punched into the case. So if the fan for the *replacement* power
supply is raised it won't fit.

That is not really a problem, at worst you'd need slightly longer screws
or easier still would be to simply remove the PSU's grill, the grill being
the only thing that would stick out. Then again it really doesn't seem to
be near the problem you're making out of it, would take about 1 minute to
find half a dozen power supplies that'd work.

In other words, it is a non-issue. I've never seen ANY ATX power supply
that wouldn't fit because of the fan, after removng 2nd grill or longer
screws.

If you're expecting any case to be completely perfect without minor
potential issues you must be living in a perfect world, for all intents
and purposes the Dell case is far better than the average cheap clone
cases out there in the market... would require a budget in excess of $40
w/o PSU to beat it.

I don't carry a hacksaw or grinder with me. If a power supply won't fit I will just tell the customer it won't fit and they need a
whole new case. I'm not going to modify a case and I'm not going to search through online photos to find one that looks like it
would fit just to find it doesn't. In this situation I would quickly try one that I had and refer them to dell if it didn't fit.

It sounds more like you have a mental block against Dell than a real
problem getting a power supply into one. As I mentioned peviously, all
you have to do is look at a picture to confirm that the unit doesn't have
the outlet or a switch in the wrong place. This is not all that difficult
nor time-consuming, but if you're in the habit of replacing power supplies
anyway you probably already know of several makes/models that would fit.
If not, then by all means, buy a case, but why even speculate about all of
this? It COMES with a power supply.

You have already spent more time thinking about the potential for a
problem than it would take to solve the problem IF it did occur.

It's certainly a lot better than what I've seen before from some of the name brands, but it's still that little bit different. Those
little difference can add up to a lot of time and hassle and at $x per hour it very quickly adds up to the cost of a cheap PC.


OMG!!! They did this??? LOL!!!! This should be illegal.

Yes, it was certainly frowned upon, just plain idiotic to use the exact
same connector with different wiring. I suppose at the time they'd never
heard of the word "standard".

They were good power supplies though, some being PCPower&Cooling, IIRC...
I rewired one (just swapped pinout on the plug) to use in a normal box,
then a year later sold it to a friend of mine, still works fine. That's
one thing about Dell though, they generally used better power supplies
than "same" thing sold by Gateway, HP, Compaq, or especially any generic
clone case. The odds of needing a different power supply would be lower
than for most people, systems.

 

[Matt]

A family member just ordered a Dell. Another family member told them that
Dell makes good computers, but have issues when it comes to swapping or
adding hardware. He went on to indicate that it is so limited that you have
to order the hardware through Dell in order to get something that will work.
I am hoping for opinions and thoughts to support or refute this claim.

For replacements/upgrades for Dimension 4600:

Hard drives, optical drives, PCI cards, AGP cards, RAM: no problem.

Case, mobo, PSU, floppy: may be problemmatic---I don't know.

You can't really blame them for integrating the case and mobo, because
Dell doesn't want to have a non-Dell mobo inside a Dell case.

Generally if there is room in the case and/or if Dell offers a given
upgrade, the PSU can handle the extra load.

You can ask this question in Dell's support forums.

 

[Michael Culley]

That is not really a problem, at worst you'd need slightly longer screws
or easier still would be to simply remove the PSU's grill, the grill being
the only thing that would stick out. Then again it really doesn't seem to
be near the problem you're making out of it, would take about 1 minute to
find half a dozen power supplies that'd work.

I'm at a customers and they desperately want their computer working. I've brought a PSU along with me but it doesn't fit because
they've got a dell. I don't have longer screws and I can't spend the time looking through online websites for a new power supply,
what do I do?

In other words, it is a non-issue. I've never seen ANY ATX power supply
that wouldn't fit because of the fan, after removng 2nd grill or longer
screws.

I can't remove the second grill because it is part of the back of the power supply and if I did I might get sued when someone kid
sticks their fingers in it.

If you're expecting any case to be completely perfect without minor
potential issues you must be living in a perfect world, for all intents
and purposes the Dell case is far better than the average cheap clone
cases out there in the market... would require a budget in excess of $40
w/o PSU to beat it.

Well I must be because in many years of working with computers the only problem I've encountered is with one clone case that slighly
overlapped a power outlet, but I was able to just bend the corner a little.

It sounds more like you have a mental block against Dell than a real
problem getting a power supply into one. As I mentioned peviously, all
you have to do is look at a picture to confirm that the unit doesn't have
the outlet or a switch in the wrong place. This is not all that difficult
nor time-consuming, but if you're in the habit of replacing power supplies
anyway you probably already know of several makes/models that would fit.

I have to take into account time. Time is very important because it potentially costs more than anything else. Certainly when
changing a single component the time is by far the greatest cost. It also has the potential to cost me the most because if I need to
look through online photos to find a psu I'm not going to be able to bill the customer. I need to get in, replace the psu and get
out, quickly.

If not, then by all means, buy a case, but why even speculate about all of
this? It COMES with a power supply.

Changing the whole case is a possibility but it costs time. It turns a ten minute job into a couple of hours. Then the CDrom and
floppy drive will look crap and kb, mouse and mon won't match.

You have already spent more time thinking about the potential for a
problem than it would take to solve the problem IF it did occur.

This is recreational time, not time the customer is billed for. But I've wasted more time than this on a *single* IBM machine.

Yes, it was certainly frowned upon, just plain idiotic to use the exact
same connector with different wiring. I suppose at the time they'd never
heard of the word "standard".

Just this one thing on it's own is enough to put me off them forever just because it means I can't trust them in the future.

They were good power supplies though, some being PCPower&Cooling, IIRC...
I rewired one (just swapped pinout on the plug) to use in a normal box,
then a year later sold it to a friend of mine, still works fine. That's
one thing about Dell though, they generally used better power supplies
than "same" thing sold by Gateway, HP, Compaq, or especially any generic
clone case. The odds of needing a different power supply would be lower
than for most people, systems.

I'm sure dell make great computers. One of the big advantages with the name brands is that they would thoroughly test their
components together, so you're unlikely to get any problems with incompatibility and the computer is likely to be more reliable.
Dells prices are also pretty good and I hear their service is excellent. If only they could follow the standards I'd be giving them
glowing recommendations.

 

[Michael Culley]

Hard drives, optical drives, PCI cards, AGP cards, RAM: no problem.

Looks like not all models have a second hdd slot. It will be hard to get a CD drive that matches the color, besides that no problem.
There is limited room for PCI cards but that's probably not much of a problem. Do all models have an AGP slot? Do they have enough
ram slots?

 

[kony]

I'm at a customers and they desperately want their computer working. I've brought a PSU along with me but it doesn't fit because
they've got a dell. I don't have longer screws and I can't spend the time looking through online websites for a new power supply,
what do I do?

How about not taking unusual power supplies with you, expecting them to
work? Clearly if you expect to tote around a spare it should be selected
to be very compatible, not _least_ compatible that's possible while still
being ATX.

How about buying a pack of screws?
If you're going on 'sites without even having some various screws, how
long did you think you'll go until that's a problem?

I can't remove the second grill because it is part of the back of the power supply and if I did I might get sued when someone kid
sticks their fingers in it.

Where are you getting these theories?
If the 2nd grill is the back, it's not going to stick out except with very
few, very rare generics. If you're trying to install such generics, it is
good they won't fit, they are not suited for any system.

How will you get sued when the rear of the case HAS the grill? If it
didn't, removal of the PSU grill would be a non-issue instead of a very
unlikely issue.

The problem isn't the Dell, it's your attitude towards them. I deal with
OEM cases all the time, do not find these issues common at all. More
common would be a non-standard size, in makes like Compaq. I am against
non-standard size PSU though it can be beneficial to necessary in some
special form-factors like the Shuttle cubes & their clones.

Well I must be because in many years of working with computers the only problem I've encountered is with one clone case that slighly
overlapped a power outlet, but I was able to just bend the corner a little.

Whoa, hold on there!
If you can BEND it, then suddenly none of your arguments work, since
bending the Dell grill or PSU grill or wall, will make almost any PSU fit.
It really isn't a problem unless you take that attitude then get a metal
block against just solving the problem... of all the potential issues in
hardware or software, these are about as easy, obvious to solve, as it
gets.

I have to take into account time. Time is very important because it potentially costs more than anything else. Certainly when
changing a single component the time is by far the greatest cost. It also has the potential to cost me the most because if I need to
look through online photos to find a psu I'm not going to be able to bill the customer. I need to get in, replace the psu and get
out, quickly.

Huh?
Time is NOT a great cost to changing any component, except perhaps when
swapping in a cheap motherboard, and considering the OS reinstall or
reconfiguration time. Any other part takes from 1 to 5 minutes, @ the
typical (varies by region of course) $60 per hr. that's $5. Granted,
you'll bill more than that, typically at least a minimal onsite or bench
fee, so it's actually a huge profit.

If you can't source a suitable replacement PSU for a Dell in less than 5
minutes, you need a different line of work. It really is incredibly easy
and quick. Any major retailer will have one, and by now surely you know
which vendors have pictures if you're not already familiar with the
mounting face on the PSU you wanted, which /should/ be one you're familar
with anyway else you can't really qualify it for use in any particular
system.

So, sure, taking a few minutes to buy a suitable power supply, is a
cost... a normal cost of business, just like choosing a PSU for ANY
system.

Again, none of this is hard or unusual, you are just trying to find a
reason to dislike Dells. If anything, a large percentage of systems will
be OEM boxes anyway, it's not like a Dell is an exception to some rule,
but rather what you would expect to find onsite, if not a Compaq.

Changing the whole case is a possibility but it costs time. It turns a ten minute job into a couple of hours. Then the CDrom and
floppy drive will look crap and kb, mouse and mon won't match.

You don't need to change the case, unless your mental block prevents you
from just buying a power supply and installing it. Even your hypothetical
problem has an easy, obvious solution.

This is recreational time, not time the customer is billed for. But I've wasted more time than this on a *single* IBM machine.

If you have a system that does take a lot of time, it should only require
glancing at it to determine this. At that point, you can make an estimate
of the "repair" cost, submit it to customer, and it's up to them...
remember, you are being paid to do what THEY want. If they want to pay
you to do whatever is necessary, what's the probem?

The only real problem is if you try selling them a new case and billing
for hours of work just because you _CHOOSE_ not to use the obvious
solution in your prior scenario, just install the power supply.

Looking at this the other way around, NOW you know about this Dell, but
will you now choose a (hypothetical) power supply to take with you, that
does fit the Dells? If not, whose fault would it be if it didn't fit?
Part of being a good onsite technician is being ready for those odd
issues... any 15 yr old can do the standard stuff.

Just this one thing on it's own is enough to put me off them forever just because it means I can't trust them in the future.

Fair enough, but I tend to consider a Dell to be what someone who'd never
replace or upgrade parts, would buy. So long as they know beforehand that
certain items are "potentially" going to cost more to replace, IF they
fail, then they can at least weigh the pros/cons and make that choice.
I'd sooner recommend a Dell over a local shop build where you don't have
any choice of the components used, end up with PCChips/etc board and a
generic power supply, for example, or are charged excessively just to
include a PSU worth $20 more.

 

[Michael Culley]

How about not taking unusual power supplies with you, expecting them to
work? Clearly if you expect to tote around a spare it should be selected
to be very compatible, not _least_ compatible that's possible while still
being ATX.

If it's got a power switch that's enough for it to not fit the dell.

How about buying a pack of screws?

I've never needed a pack of screws for any other computer repair in 10 years (except the standard pc screws). Don't know why I'd
start carrying 'em now

Where are you getting these theories?
If the 2nd grill is the back, it's not going to stick out except with very
few, very rare generics. If you're trying to install such generics, it is
good they won't fit, they are not suited for any system.

It was just one of many examples. You are ignoring everything else and concentrating on this raised fan only. Ok, it is unlikely, it
was just one of many possible problems I raised.

How will you get sued when the rear of the case HAS the grill? If it
didn't, removal of the PSU grill would be a non-issue instead of a very
unlikely issue.

You have to think about these things. The next tech might remove the PSU and electrocute himself and his widow might sue me. Besides
I don't see how you could remove it if the power outlets are mounted in the same piece of metal.

The problem isn't the Dell, it's your attitude towards them. I deal with
OEM cases all the time, do not find these issues common at all. More
common would be a non-standard size, in makes like Compaq. I am against
non-standard size PSU though it can be beneficial to necessary in some
special form-factors like the Shuttle cubes & their clones.

Yes, I have an attitude towards Dell. Any company that rewires the ATX plug is a write-off in my book.

Whoa, hold on there!
If you can BEND it, then suddenly none of your arguments work, since
bending the Dell grill or PSU grill or wall, will make almost any PSU fit.
It really isn't a problem unless you take that attitude then get a metal
block against just solving the problem... of all the potential issues in
hardware or software, these are about as easy, obvious to solve, as it
gets.

Now that's just rubbish. In this case the bend was very minor and easy to do. It's a whole different ballgame to hacking out the
back of a case with a grinder.

Time is NOT a great cost to changing any component, except perhaps when
swapping in a cheap motherboard, and considering the OS reinstall or
reconfiguration time. Any other part takes from 1 to 5 minutes, @ the
typical (varies by region of course) $60 per hr. that's $5. Granted,
you'll bill more than that, typically at least a minimal onsite or bench
fee, so it's actually a huge profit.

I do pretty much everything on site. When changing any component time is more often than not the biggest cost.

If you can't source a suitable replacement PSU for a Dell in less than 5
minutes, you need a different line of work. It really is incredibly easy
and quick. Any major retailer will have one, and by now surely you know
which vendors have pictures if you're not already familiar with the
mounting face on the PSU you wanted, which /should/ be one you're familar
with anyway else you can't really qualify it for use in any particular
system.

First I have to go to the customers and find out it doesn't fit, then I have to take the machine away and spend time finding one.
Then I have to replace the power supply and then return the machine to the customer. I don't know how fast you drive but I can tell
you it's going to take me a *lot* longer than 5 minutes.

Again, none of this is hard or unusual, you are just trying to find a
reason to dislike Dells. If anything, a large percentage of systems will
be OEM boxes anyway, it's not like a Dell is an exception to some rule,
but rather what you would expect to find onsite, if not a Compaq.

Luckily that's not often the case.

If you have a system that does take a lot of time, it should only require
glancing at it to determine this. At that point, you can make an estimate
of the "repair" cost, submit it to customer, and it's up to them...
remember, you are being paid to do what THEY want. If they want to pay
you to do whatever is necessary, what's the probem?

Well, that's true but surely what is important here is the customer, not me The problem is that not all of that time is
billable, you can't bill a customer for ordering a PSU. You're not going to find a PSU that suits in 5 minutes, these things take
more time than that. It all just ends up messy, the customer isn't happy because they got billed a heap for nothing and I've wasted
time.

Looking at this the other way around, NOW you know about this Dell, but
will you now choose a (hypothetical) power supply to take with you, that
does fit the Dells? If not, whose fault would it be if it didn't fit?
Part of being a good onsite technician is being ready for those odd
issues... any 15 yr old can do the standard stuff.

Nope, too much trouble. There are too many name brands out there with too many possible configurations.

Fair enough, but I tend to consider a Dell to be what someone who'd never
replace or upgrade parts, would buy. So long as they know beforehand that
certain items are "potentially" going to cost more to replace, IF they
fail, then they can at least weigh the pros/cons and make that choice.
I'd sooner recommend a Dell over a local shop build where you don't have
any choice of the components used, end up with PCChips/etc board and a
generic power supply, for example, or are charged excessively just to
include a PSU worth $20 more.

That's why they should buy a PC off me

 

[CBFalconer]

Looks like not all models have a second hdd slot. It will be hard to get a CD drive that matches the color, besides that no problem.
There is limited room for PCI cards but that's probably not much of a problem. Do all models have an AGP slot? Do they have enough
ram slots?

This is short enough to illustrate the problem. Please set your
system to wrap lines at no more than 72 chars, 65 is better.

 

[Michael Culley]

This is short enough to illustrate the problem. Please set your
system to wrap lines at no more than 72 chars, 65 is better.

Goto control panel, display, settings and drag the slider to the right. 640x480 is a little small these days .

 

[kony]

If it's got a power switch that's enough for it to not fit the dell.

Probably true. We both know that, so where's the problem?
That is, knowing that it might not accept a psu with switch, the choice of
replacement is still simple.

I've never needed a pack of screws for any other computer repair in 10 years (except the standard pc screws). Don't know why I'd
start carrying 'em now

And you're claiming you don't have any screws that would be long enough to
mount a power supply in a Dell then? I have tons of 'em, that were in
computers. However, it's still not certain that different screws would be
needed.

If you're going on a 'site and don't have ANY screws at all with you, what
would you do when you need one, or are you claiming you've never needed a
screw, to mount a part or replace one missing, etc?

It was just one of many examples. You are ignoring everything else and concentrating on this raised fan only. Ok, it is unlikely, it
was just one of many possible problems I raised.

I"m ignoring any problem that isn't difficult to overcome. Just because
something isn't 100% exactly like a clone box, does not mean there's a
need to fuss over it, you just knock out the solution and move on. These
issues are so minor that they're hardly signficant to choosing a Dell or
any other system.

You have to think about these things.

Not really, it's very easy compared to some computer issues.

The next tech might remove the PSU and electrocute himself and his widow might sue me. Besides
I don't see how you could remove it if the power outlets are mounted in the same piece of metal.

Nonsense. If someone removes a psu from a system, then plugs it in, then
sticks their fingers in it, their widow is SOL. All that matters is that
it is isolated when installed. If you'd been working with more than just
PCs, you'd have seen TONS of power supplies that, if removed, plugged in,
and someone stuck their finger it, they'd be asking for a shock. You're
desperately trying to find excuses, or perhaps just feeling argumentative,
but it's not a problem except in your mind.

Yes, I have an attitude towards Dell. Any company that rewires the ATX plug is a write-off in my book.

But you had the attitude even before you learned of it!

Now that's just rubbish. In this case the bend was very minor and easy to do. It's a whole different ballgame to hacking out the
back of a case with a grinder.

.... and the raised portion on a junk PSU that shouldn't be installed
(instead of a decent one) is only minor too, yet you want to make an
immovable mountain out of it.

Surely you don't use this attitude when actually dealing with a problem?
If you are taking PSUs to 'sites that wouldn't fit in the pictured Dell,
the Dell isn't the probem, rather that you chose a PSU that has low
compatbility. One would hope that you now realize this and select a
normal, decent PSU without a switch to use as a spare.

I do pretty much everything on site. When changing any component time is more often than not the biggest cost.

You mean it's the biggest _billed_ cost, not the biggest actual cost to
you, as I already mentioned. If it really takes you a long, long time just
to install a part then look at why you can't get the job done in same time
as everyone else. I suspect it's because you look at a situation and
don't just do the work, rather trying to fuss over some non-ideologic
situation. Perhaps you have some ideas now about parts you SHOULD have on
site, to deal with the millions of OEM boxes out there.

First I have to go to the customers and find out it doesn't fit, then I have to take the machine away and spend time finding one.

No, you mean that you made a mistake before you ever showed up, by
bringing a poor "spare".

Next, your second mistake, taking the machine off-site. Even if you made
first mistake, it is clear that all you need do is as I already told you,
take screws (which probably aren't even needed, but are parts you should
have regardless) and a normal switchless PSU with you when you return to
the 'site. In other words, you had to make two trips because you weren't
properly prepared the first time.

I cannot believe that you've worked on many systems, because minor OEM
issues like this are so common that some techs run across them a
half-dozen times a day.

Then I have to replace the power supply and then return the machine to the customer. I don't know how fast you drive but I can tell
you it's going to take me a *lot* longer than 5 minutes.

I suppose you like to drive back and forth, since you don't want to take
the parts you might need with you.

Well, that's true but surely what is important here is the customer, not me The problem is that not all of that time is
billable, you can't bill a customer for ordering a PSU. You're not going to find a PSU that suits in 5 minutes, these things take
more time than that. It all just ends up messy, the customer isn't happy because they got billed a heap for nothing and I've wasted
time.

Untrue. Pick a popular online site, for example, Direction, Newegg, etc,
etc, and I could find a replacement in about 1 minute, if it took that
long. A local computer superstore would also have something, but it's a
non-issue if you learn from the pic you saw and use appropriate PSU models
as spares, then you have what you needed already. Shunning Dell is
pointless, being prepared isn't.

Nope, too much trouble. There are too many name brands out there with too many possible configurations.

If you think it's too much trouble to use a widely compatible ATX PSU as a
spare, you are the problem, not any choice an OEM made.

Does it not occur that compatibility would be one of the primary issues to
consider for a spare? It's not a question, rather something you need to
reconsider. Even if Dell went out of business tomorrow, there are other
systems that may have some issues. If you're not willing to be prepared
to handle these common problems then you're costing the customer downtime,
are a liability.