Dell AMD boxes vastly cheaper than Intel

[bbbl67]

Dell AMD boxes vastly cheaper than Intel
"All in all, I think the AMD based Dells are a very attractive
proposition. For the vast majority of people out there, the extra money
saved is well worth it, I can see why Dell went AMD now. This is going
to be a very interesting Christmas season with prices like these, AMD
will do very well indeed. µ"
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34392

 

[George Macdonald]

Dell AMD boxes vastly cheaper than Intel
"All in all, I think the AMD based Dells are a very attractive
proposition. For the vast majority of people out there, the extra money
saved is well worth it, I can see why Dell went AMD now. This is going
to be a very interesting Christmas season with prices like these, AMD
will do very well indeed. µ"
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34392

At least we AMD DIYers have a reference now for the kind of junk Dell is
selling.;-)

 

[chrisv]

Dell AMD boxes vastly cheaper than Intel
"All in all, I think the AMD based Dells are a very attractive
proposition. For the vast majority of people out there, the extra money
saved is well worth it, I can see why Dell went AMD now. This is going
to be a very interesting Christmas season with prices like these, AMD
will do very well indeed. µ"
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34392

I wonder what chipsets those cheap AMD boxes are using...

 

[nobody]

I wonder what chipsets those cheap AMD boxes are using...

"NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Integrated Graphics GPU" - as stated on Dell
config page
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=555&l=en&oc=MLB1801&s=biz

NNN

 

[nobody]

Dell AMD boxes vastly cheaper than Intel
"All in all, I think the AMD based Dells are a very attractive
proposition. For the vast majority of people out there, the extra money
saved is well worth it, I can see why Dell went AMD now. This is going
to be a very interesting Christmas season with prices like these, AMD
will do very well indeed. µ"
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34392

Dell seems to just have learned what we around here knew for many
years: by using AMD you save a bundle, and in most cases still get a
faster box.
;-)
The boxes are decent for the target audience. The only thing that
doesn't look good is the memory - it's limited to 533. But this would
hobble Intel boxes, especially Netbust based, even more than AMD ones.
While expecting 800 from Dull in their value line desktops would be a
stretch, they should've offered 667 at least as an option.

NNN

 

[Yousuf Khan]

The boxes are decent for the target audience. The only thing that
doesn't look good is the memory - it's limited to 533. But this would
hobble Intel boxes, especially Netbust based, even more than AMD ones.
While expecting 800 from Dull in their value line desktops would be a
stretch, they should've offered 667 at least as an option.

Well, since the memory controller is on the CPU, shouldn't it be just a
simple matter to enable 667 and 800, and even higher speeds, just by
upgrading a BIOS? Maybe Dell will enable the higher speeds later, when
those speed bins become more affordable? Dell has to save money
somewhere, so it's probably got a big inventory of 533Mhz DDR2 sitting
in a warehouse somewhere? Oh wait, scratch that, Dell is so efficient,
it doesn't keep an inventory.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Yousuf Khan]

The boxes are decent for the target audience. The only thing that
doesn't look good is the memory - it's limited to 533. But this would
hobble Intel boxes, especially Netbust based, even more than AMD ones.
While expecting 800 from Dull in their value line desktops would be a
stretch, they should've offered 667 at least as an option.

Well, since the memory controller is on the CPU, shouldn't it be just a
simple matter to enable 667 and 800, and even higher speeds, just by
upgrading a BIOS? Maybe Dell will enable the higher speeds later, when
those speed bins become more affordable? Dell has to save money
somewhere, so it's probably got a big inventory of 533Mhz DDR2 sitting
in a warehouse somewhere? Oh wait, scratch that, Dell is so efficient,
it doesn't keep an inventory.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Yousuf Khan]

At least we AMD DIYers have a reference now for the kind of junk Dell is
selling.;-)

It's funny, one of the anal-yst firms, Goldman-Sachs, is commenting that
the extent of support for AMD processors is less than expected, because
it doesn't think there's enough models being introduced. I guess it's
thinking that it's gotta be like the Intel model where you usually need
a different motherboard depending on whether it's Celeron, Pentium, or
Core, and even whenever new speed grades are introduced. Dell is only
introducing two models with AMD processors, the standard-sized E521 and
the slimline C521, and that's it. What GS doesn't seem to understand is
that the same system is available with everything from a Sempron, right
upto X2's (and probably FX'es too, but they aren't offered on these
models). So why would Dell need to offer anymore models?

Yousuf Khan

"Goldman Sachs notes that while there has been continued speculation
regarding the magnitude of AMD's (NYSE:AMD) penetration of Dell
(NASDAQELL), they believe that Dell's initial rollout of AMD-based
products suggests that expectations may have gotten ahead of reality, at
least for the remainder of 2006. Dell's new Dimension products represent
a very small percentage of its overall business. Further, while AMD's
pending notebook relationship with Dell will drive incremental share
gains, they believe that if the extent to which Dell is currently using
AMD in desktops is similar to what the firm can expect in notebooks,
AMD's market share is unlikely to increase as meaningfully as current
expectations suggest. To that end, the firm is republishing their recent
analysis which illustrates that AMD's share gains at Dell/IBM in
2006/2007 will likely be more than offset by Intel's gains at HP, the
white box market, and the gaming enthusiast market."
http://www1.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=476&mn=1893&pt=msg&mid=436912

 

[George Macdonald]

It's funny, one of the anal-yst firms, Goldman-Sachs, is commenting that
the extent of support for AMD processors is less than expected, because
it doesn't think there's enough models being introduced. I guess it's
thinking that it's gotta be like the Intel model where you usually need
a different motherboard depending on whether it's Celeron, Pentium, or
Core, and even whenever new speed grades are introduced. Dell is only
introducing two models with AMD processors, the standard-sized E521 and
the slimline C521, and that's it. What GS doesn't seem to understand is
that the same system is available with everything from a Sempron, right
upto X2's (and probably FX'es too, but they aren't offered on these
models). So why would Dell need to offer anymore models?

They do have a point though: I have trouble believeing that the 305W P/S in
the E521 can handle a X2 5000+, a real video card and a couple of HDDs.
OTOH Dell can leave the higher end market to Alienware maybe.

The castrated "Lite" version of the Nforce 430/6150 chipset is a perfect
illustration of why to avoid this garbage.

I just hope Dell is not going to use AMD as a foil to show off Intel's
"strengths". I've said several times that AMD would be better off without
Dell - they only devalue the product. To the casual buyer this is bottom
of the barrel - people often figure a few extra $$ spent is "worth it".

 

[George Macdonald]

Well, since the memory controller is on the CPU, shouldn't it be just a
simple matter to enable 667 and 800, and even higher speeds, just by
upgrading a BIOS? Maybe Dell will enable the higher speeds later, when
those speed bins become more affordable? Dell has to save money
somewhere, so it's probably got a big inventory of 533Mhz DDR2 sitting
in a warehouse somewhere? Oh wait, scratch that, Dell is so efficient,
it doesn't keep an inventory.

If you look closely at the DDR2 market, nobody is selling a PC2-6400 DIMM
which requires less than 1.9V and there's only one or two of those - most
want 2.1(5)V or more. Even PC2-5300 is pushing it at 1.9V for many mfrs.
The integrated mbrd I looked at as a possible build for a family member,
was limited to 1.9V - not worth the risk IMO. Even non-integrated mbrds,
like the Asus M2N-E (~$90.), which has only a 4-step VR maxed at 1.95V, are
a big risk for PC2-6400.

Anybody buying that Dell POS with a view to upgrade is going to be
seriously disappointed. I'm still puzzled as to why they disabled the
nForce 1Gb network interface and added a 100Mb Broadcom chip... but then
they also disabled the 2xPATA interfaces.<ugh>

 

[Felger Carbon]

They do have a point though: I have trouble believeing that the 305W P/S in
the E521 can handle a X2 5000+, a real video card and a couple of HDDs.
OTOH Dell can leave the higher end market to Alienware maybe.

My AMD system uses a 300W PSU, and according to my Kill A Watt wattmeter,
draws a total of 82W from the wall socket, exclusive of my 19" LCD display,
which accounts for another 35W but is not powered by my PC's PSU. A "real"
video card? An X2 5000+ CPU?? George, who do you think Dell's customers
are?

That's like criticizing a Honda Accord because it won't turn 300+ mph in the
quarter-mile!

 

[The little lost angel]

They do have a point though: I have trouble believeing that the 305W P/S in
the E521 can handle a X2 5000+, a real video card and a couple of HDDs.
OTOH Dell can leave the higher end market to Alienware maybe.

Given that an X2-4400 with TWO REAL video card in Crossfire
configuration and a couple of HDD only drew about 320W peak. I don't
see any problem for a X2-5000 (not much difference there) and a single
REAL video card (about 80 to 100W difference there) on a 305W P/S.
PP

 

[YKhan]

If you look closely at the DDR2 market, nobody is selling a PC2-6400 DIMM
which requires less than 1.9V and there's only one or two of those - most
want 2.1(5)V or more. Even PC2-5300 is pushing it at 1.9V for many mfrs.
The integrated mbrd I looked at as a possible build for a family member,
was limited to 1.9V - not worth the risk IMO. Even non-integrated mbrds,
like the Asus M2N-E (~$90.), which has only a 4-step VR maxed at 1.95V, are
a big risk for PC2-6400.

Well, I guess that explains it, the current generation DDR2 is too
power-hungry, and Dell or whoever engineered these things for Dell
didn't want to take a chance on wierd memory-related crashes, so they
chose the slowest speed DDR2 available.

It's possible that the next revision generation DDR2 will get down to
1.95V or less, at the higher speeds.

Anybody buying that Dell POS with a view to upgrade is going to be
seriously disappointed. I'm still puzzled as to why they disabled the
nForce 1Gb network interface and added a 100Mb Broadcom chip... but then
they also disabled the 2xPATA interfaces.<ugh>

Well, most people who buy from Dell won't be upgrading, they'll be
buying a new unit later. Or if they do upgrade, they buy it from Dell
too.

As for the Nforce Ethernet, weren't you the one that was saying that
one has "issues"? I think you mentioned its built-in firewall was the
issue. If they let people use the Nforce Ethernet, they may have to let
people use the Nforce firewall, and again you run into wierd
unreliability issues, this time at the network port. Going with a
run-of-the-mill Broadcom port is the safe way to go.

As for disabling PATA, Dell is the one who supplies all of the hard
drives and optical drives anyways for these systems, so likely they
don't even bother to carry PATA stuff anymore, it's all SATA for them
now.

Yousuf Khan

 

[YKhan]

They do have a point though: I have trouble believeing that the 305W P/S in
the E521 can handle a X2 5000+, a real video card and a couple of HDDs.
OTOH Dell can leave the higher end market to Alienware maybe.

Oh well, this one is easy to answer. If you look at the Dell
configurator, you'll see that the extent of a "real video" card they
offer are either ATI X1300 or Nvidia 7300 (with TurboCache even!). I
don't think either of these cards are going to strain their power
supply one iota. If you want to put your own video card in however,
then perhaps it might be a problem. But then again maybe not, they seem
to be using some pretty low-power components here for the most part, so
there might be some headroom in the PS.

The castrated "Lite" version of the Nforce 430/6150 chipset is a perfect
illustration of why to avoid this garbage.

I think most OEM manufacturers equip their systems out like this. There
is not a lot of physical room for upgrades on their systems, unlike
systems we'd build ourselves -- so things can be castrated and still be
quite usable.

I just hope Dell is not going to use AMD as a foil to show off Intel's
"strengths". I've said several times that AMD would be better off without
Dell - they only devalue the product. To the casual buyer this is bottom
of the barrel - people often figure a few extra $$ spent is "worth it".

Weren't most of Dell's Intel systems exactly like this too? Low
expansion capacity, built right to the minimal requirements systems?

Yousuf Khan

 

[nobody]

If you look closely at the DDR2 market, nobody is selling a PC2-6400 DIMM
which requires less than 1.9V and there's only one or two of those - most
want 2.1(5)V or more. Even PC2-5300 is pushing it at 1.9V for many mfrs.
The integrated mbrd I looked at as a possible build for a family member,
was limited to 1.9V - not worth the risk IMO. Even non-integrated mbrds,
like the Asus M2N-E (~$90.), which has only a 4-step VR maxed at 1.95V, are
a big risk for PC2-6400.

Anybody buying that Dell POS with a view to upgrade is going to be
seriously disappointed. I'm still puzzled as to why they disabled the
nForce 1Gb network interface and added a 100Mb Broadcom chip... but then
they also disabled the 2xPATA interfaces.<ugh>

Do you believe Dull customers upgrade? At best they sometimes later
get more memory, and even that they buy from Dell. Besides, Dell is
not interested in the system being upgradeable. Dell is interested to
sell you the next system ASAP. And then the next, and the next.

Also please note that most Dull customers have no idea about any
voltages involved. Very few would tell DDR2 from DDR, and even among
these the ability to match the DIMM to the slot and insert it the
right way is probably at the upper limit of their computer literacy.
So it's a moot point to discuss DIY upgrades - there probably will be
none, especially in corporate settings at which these systems are
targeted.

NNN

 

[George Macdonald]

Given that an X2-4400 with TWO REAL video card in Crossfire
configuration and a couple of HDD only drew about 320W peak. I don't
see any problem for a X2-5000 (not much difference there) and a single
REAL video card (about 80 to 100W difference there) on a 305W P/S.

We've been over this before. Go look up the recommendations of the video
card mfrs: e.g. for X1900 XT 512MB, 450W P/S with 30A on +12V; in
Crossfire, 550W P/S with 38A on +12V. It's also not just about peak draw,
but the transient reponse to the steep current & voltage ramp in modern
power managed systems. I'm not a gamer but the reports on this indicate
that it's also game dependent, which makes sense, so there are people out
there who have happily functioning systems who just haven't played the
right (wrong ?) game.

I'm afraid the Dell P/S is just not up to it... and does not satisfy the
video card mfrs' recommended specs.

 

[George Macdonald]

My AMD system uses a 300W PSU, and according to my Kill A Watt wattmeter,
draws a total of 82W from the wall socket, exclusive of my 19" LCD display,
which accounts for another 35W but is not powered by my PC's PSU. A "real"
video card? An X2 5000+ CPU?? George, who do you think Dell's customers
are?

If you follow the URL to the Dell E521 system config, the X2 5000+ is in
the list of "options"; it also has a PCIe x16 slot. Oh wait.... when some
luser shoves an 7900 card in there Dell gets to tell him he needs a P/S
upgrade too... and it's only approved if he pays Dell for the 7900. As for
your 82W system, Asus sells a video card with an external "helper" power
supply rated at 80W.

 

[George Macdonald]

Well, I guess that explains it, the current generation DDR2 is too
power-hungry, and Dell or whoever engineered these things for Dell
didn't want to take a chance on wierd memory-related crashes, so they
chose the slowest speed DDR2 available.

It's possible that the next revision generation DDR2 will get down to
1.95V or less, at the higher speeds.


Well, most people who buy from Dell won't be upgrading, they'll be
buying a new unit later. Or if they do upgrade, they buy it from Dell
too.

As for the Nforce Ethernet, weren't you the one that was saying that
one has "issues"? I think you mentioned its built-in firewall was the
issue. If they let people use the Nforce Ethernet, they may have to let
people use the Nforce firewall, and again you run into wierd
unreliability issues, this time at the network port. Going with a
run-of-the-mill Broadcom port is the safe way to go.

Yeah there have been issues but the Firewall is easy to not load... or not
provide as part of the drivers/software set. There was also a more serious
problem with checksum offloading but that is easy to disable, which I
suspect nVidia has built into the more recent nForce4 drivers as the
default, since they seem to work OK now; the device manager entry still
shows Enabled but I don't think the control does anything now.

As for disabling PATA, Dell is the one who supplies all of the hard
drives and optical drives anyways for these systems, so likely they
don't even bother to carry PATA stuff anymore, it's all SATA for them
now.

Saving money on ribbon cable folding? It seems that many people, even
DIYers are getting by with one optical drive now; personally I still prefer
a DVD-ROM as well as a burner.

 

[George Macdonald]

Oh well, this one is easy to answer. If you look at the Dell
configurator, you'll see that the extent of a "real video" card they
offer are either ATI X1300 or Nvidia 7300 (with TurboCache even!). I
don't think either of these cards are going to strain their power
supply one iota. If you want to put your own video card in however,
then perhaps it might be a problem. But then again maybe not, they seem
to be using some pretty low-power components here for the most part, so
there might be some headroom in the PS.

Ah, I guess they always have the NBH (not bought here) argument then.

I think most OEM manufacturers equip their systems out like this. There
is not a lot of physical room for upgrades on their systems, unlike
systems we'd build ourselves -- so things can be castrated and still be
quite usable.

Oh sure - but isn't it annoying: the chipset has 2xPATA channels but they
had the mbrd shop make a special version with the PATA connectors and maybe
some traces removed. Spending time/money to defeature something so you can
down-market segment it is nuts. I guess when you boil it down, it's
another reason we DIYers got started in the first place.

Weren't most of Dell's Intel systems exactly like this too? Low
expansion capacity, built right to the minimal requirements systems?

Yeah, that's true but people are funny - they want to be able to say to
their friends: "oh we didn't get the cheapest model you know". I'm half
tempted to call up Dell sales to get "advice" on "whether I should go for
the AMD or Intel system"... just to see how they play it.

 

[bbbl67]

Oh sure - but isn't it annoying: the chipset has 2xPATA channels but they
had the mbrd shop make a special version with the PATA connectors and maybe
some traces removed. Spending time/money to defeature something so you can
down-market segment it is nuts. I guess when you boil it down, it's
another reason we DIYers got started in the first place.

I'm sure in this case they simply never connected traces to the parts
of the chipset dealing with the PATA connectors. Thus saving some money
in the motherboard design, and also some board real-estate. The SATA
connectors are extremely easy to accomodate on even the smallest
form-factors. PATA aren't. And Dell is one of the driving members of
the SATA committee. They have likely got big deal set up with one of
the HD makers for SATA drives and therefore they would never be buying
PATA hard drives anyways, so PATA connectors on the mobo would be just
sitting uselessly for them.

Yousuf Khan