Debian GNU/Linux Beta-3 Sarge - The Universal Operating System.

[Gordon Darling]

Debian GNU/Linux Beta-3 Sarge - The Universal Operating System.

About:
Debian is an operating system for your computer that consists only of Free
Software. It uses the Linux kernel, and a large part of the basic tools
that fill out the operating system come from GNU, which are also free. It
comes with thousands of packages.

Changes:
This release features a new easy to use partitioner that supports
automatic partitioning and LVM. Grub is now the default boot loader on
i386. There is wireless networking support, the 2.4.25 kernel, with SATA
support and security fixes, and support for the XFS filesystem. It has
been fully translated to 25 languages.

Release focus: Major feature enhancements
License: DFSG approved
Project URL: http://freshmeat.net/projects/debian/

Regards
Gordon

 

[Rob]

Debian GNU/Linux Beta-3 Sarge - The Universal Operating System.

About:
Debian is an operating system for your computer that consists only of
Free Software. It uses the Linux kernel, and a large part of the
basic tools that fill out the operating system come from GNU, which
are also free. It comes with thousands of packages.

Changes:
This release features a new easy to use partitioner that supports
automatic partitioning and LVM. Grub is now the default boot loader
on i386. There is wireless networking support, the 2.4.25 kernel,
with SATA support and security fixes, and support for the XFS
filesystem. It has been fully translated to 25 languages.

Release focus: Major feature enhancements
License: DFSG approved
Project URL: http://freshmeat.net/projects/debian/

Regards
Gordon

Gordon,

How do you download it? I don't see any ISO files like they have for Woody.

Rob

 

[Gordon Darling]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 08:44:05 -0500, Rob wrote:

snip

How do you download it? I don't see any ISO files like they have for Woody.

Rob

Can't help you there Rob. Debian is about the only Linux version I haven't
tried!

Can any Debian user provide links to ISOs???

Regards
Gordon

 

[Rob]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 08:44:05 -0500, Rob wrote:

snip



Can't help you there Rob. Debian is about the only Linux version I
haven't tried!

Can any Debian user provide links to ISOs???

Regards
Gordon

Gordon,

I found the link. Since Sarge is still beta, the ISO's are NOT on the
Debian FTP sites. You must go to http://people.debian.org/cdimage/testing/

Rob

 

[Gordon Darling]

Gordon,

I found the link. Since Sarge is still beta, the ISO's are NOT on the
Debian FTP sites. You must go to http://people.debian.org/cdimage/testing/

Rob

Thanks for the link. I'm in the process of building a spare machine from
bits. I've got one 40Gb drive for it and I'm going to get another 120GB
drive to keep it company. I've been considering trying Debian or Gentoo
for some time so I'll try and pull down the Sarge ISOs to give me
something to play with.

Regards
Gordon

 

[Rob]

Thanks for the link. I'm in the process of building a spare machine
from bits. I've got one 40Gb drive for it and I'm going to get
another 120GB drive to keep it company. I've been considering trying
Debian or Gentoo
for some time so I'll try and pull down the Sarge ISOs to give me
something to play with.

Regards
Gordon

Gordon,

Sarge looks great but remember it is still beta. Also please note that the
ISO's does NOT contain sarge but just an installer. You install off the
net.

Woody is the stable Debian distro but it is starting to get long in the
tooth.

You can't go wrong with either Debian or Gentoo. Here are some pros and
cons...


Debian Pros

- Released versions (e.g. Woody) are very stable and have undergone lots of
testing
- one of the best, if not the best, software package management systems
(IMHO, Apt-get is more powerful than Red Hat's RPM or Gentoo's Portage)
- will warn you if you try to uninstall software that is needed as a
dependency for another software package installed on your PC
- Can configure it so that it will ONLY install FREE software
- Over 8000 software packages have already been packaged for the Debian
system
- Can download 7 CD's containing all these packaged software programs.

Debian Cons

- The installation requires some expertise and patience. Not for newbies.
(But the new installer in Sarge is much better but still not great IMHO)
- The installation program is text based and NOT very user friendly.
- only optimised to run on i386 machines. (not optimised for i686, Pentium
III, Pentium IV etc but it will still run just fine...)


Gentoo Pros

- Optimised to run an various x86 processors. (i.e. i686, P3, P4, Athlon XP
etc)
- Portage software package management system is designed to make it easy for
you to compile source code and install the program.
- Since the programs are compiled on your PC, it should be optimised for
your PC and run as fast as possible!
- The installation of Gentoo gives you a LOT of flexibility. You can easily
choose you favourite Boot loader, system logger, cron daemon etc.. Choice
is what Gentoo is all about!


Gentoo Cons

- The installation requires some expertise and patience. Not for newbies..
- The installation program is text based and NOT very user friendly.
- Portage will NOT warn you if you try to uninstall software that is needed
as a dependency for another software package installed on your PC. You
could break you system.
- Portage is mainly used to download source code, compile it and install the
binary on your PC. But Compiling of source code using Portage can take a
LONG time.. (Yes Portage will also allow you to install some pre-compiled
programs provided on the 2nd CD. But if you want to install something else
or just upgrade an existing package, you will likely have to use Portage to
download and compile the source code.)
- NOT recommended for SLOW PC's. (Since it could take days to compile
software)
- NOT nearly as much software available for its Portage package management
system as in Debian
- Cannot easily set up system so that it will only install FREE software.

Rob

 

[Roger Parks]

Thank you for this thoughtful breakdown!!

 

[Rob]

Thank you for this thoughtful breakdown!!

Your welcome... Here are two more Pros and Cons I forgot:

Debian PRO

- Can easy upgrade system to latest version using APT-GET. No need to
uninstall old version and install new version (unlike many other payware
distros)

Debian CON

- Stable versions are NOT released very frequently. (But when they are
released they have already gone thorough lots of testing and are pretty
stable). Consequently, stable releases may use out-of-date software such as
KDE. (But security updates are available via apt-get)


Gentoo PRO

-- Can easy upgrade system to latest version using Portage. No need to
uninstall old version and install new version (unlike many other payware
distros)

- Versions released very frequently. (Planed releases every quarter). The
latest version typically includes latest versions of core software such as
KDE.

Rob

 

[Roger Johansson]

Gentoo PRO
-- Can easy upgrade system to latest version using Portage. No need to
uninstall old version and install new version (unlike many other payware
distros)

- Versions released very frequently. (Planed releases every quarter). The
latest version typically includes latest versions of core software such as
KDE.

I hope the Gentoo community is working on the problem that you could break
some dependencies without being warned by uninstalling things which are
needed for other programs.

The fact that Gentoo uses downloaded source code and compiles on the
computer means that downloading takes little time, but compiling takes a
lot of time.

For Debian it is the opposite, downloading pre-compiled binaries takes a
lot of time, and demands a good and fast connection, but it installs fast,
once downloaded.

I wonder if the portage system in Gentoo allows import of source code which
is not released by the Gentoo community, to compensate for the smaller
amount of released programs within the portage system, compared to the
enormous amount of software pre-compiled for Debian.

 

[Chris]

Sarge looks great but remember it is still beta. Also please note that
the ISO's does NOT contain sarge but just an installer. You install
off the net.

I found what seem to be complete isos.
Perhaps you can confirm?
Do you know where the md5 sums are though?

ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/debian-unofficial/sarge/

There are isos for thirteen CDs there.

I am a beginner and wonder which I need.
I thought I'd try Debian because Knoppix works so well on my machine.
Do those isos contain the new installer?

 

[Rob]

I found what seem to be complete isos.
Perhaps you can confirm?
Do you know where the md5 sums are though?

ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/debian-unofficial/sarge/

There are isos for thirteen CDs there.

I am a beginner and wonder which I need.
I thought I'd try Debian because Knoppix works so well on my machine.
Do those isos contain the new installer?

I don't think these are the OFFICIAL Sarge Debian Distro. The ISO's are
likely not the most current.
If you have a net connection, i would recommend downloading the ISO's from
the people.debian.org site. Boot from the CD and install the rest from the
net. This way you will get the latest installer and sarge programs.

But if you cannot use a CD, you may want to try your link..

Rob

 

[Rob]

I hope the Gentoo community is working on the problem that you could
break some dependencies without being warned by uninstalling things
which are needed for other programs.

I am sure that eventually Gentoo will do this dependency check for you
automatically before you do the uninstall. Apparently, you can use qpkg to
do a manual check of dependencies.

You can also use the 'emerge --clean package_name' to safely get rid of
older versions of the software. To read more about Portage visit
www.gentoo.org and read the Portage manuals. You can also boot from the
CDSystemRescue CD and type 'man emerge'.

The fact that Gentoo uses downloaded source code and compiles on the
computer means that downloading takes little time, but compiling
takes a
lot of time.

Well in many cases, downloading the source code takes longer than the
precompiled binaries!
Then compiling the source code can take DAYS for large packages like
OpenOffice. But you can still use you PC for other tasks. Linux is a great
Multi-tasking, multi user OS.

It will almost always take longer in install new software on a Gentoo box...
But it should run faster.

For Debian it is the opposite, downloading pre-compiled binaries
takes a
lot of time, and demands a good and fast connection, but it installs
fast, once downloaded.

In Gentoo, you can create Gentoo precompiled packages too and put them up on
the web for others to download. But you rarely see them. People who use
Gentoo seem to want to download the source code and compile the source code
so it runs as fast as possible on the PC.

You can alsoe manually create Debian .DEB precompiled pacakges. And there
are lots of them on the Internet for manual download and available via
Apt-Get. Debian has been around longer than Gentoo and has a bigger
following.

I wonder if the portage system in Gentoo allows import of source code
which is not released by the Gentoo community, to compensate for the
smaller amount of released programs within the portage system,
compared to the enormous amount of software pre-compiled for Debian.

Most of the source code is NOT released by the Gentoo community. It was
released by the original developer (e.g. OpenOffice) using under a GPL. But
to easily install it on a Gentoo box using Portage, ebuild scripts must be
written and put into the Portage database.

Anyone can write ebuild scripts for Gentoo and add a new package to the
Gentoo Portage database (subject to license restrictions).
So if you have a great FREE program in mind that is not in the Portage
database, you could write the ebuild script and add it to the Portage
database. It will take some time for Gentoo to catch up to Debian.

In Gentoo (and Debian), you can download raw source code, compile it and
install it on your PC (just like in any other Linux distro). It should work
all the time but some distros want files in certain places (notwithstanding
the File Hierarchy Standard). It is better to test the program and create a
ebuild file for Gentoo or a .DEB file for Debian for others to use.

A lot of the more experienced Linux seem to gravitate to Gentoo since it is
much more flexible than Debian and the official releases are more current.
I like Gentoo but I wouldn't put it on a slow PC (unless you compile the
software on a fast PC and transfer the binary over to the slower PC).

Rob

 

[Roger Johansson]

I am sure that eventually Gentoo will do this dependency check for you
automatically before you do the uninstall. Apparently, you can use qpkg to
do a manual check of dependencies.

Good, I can live with doing manual checks until they find a way to
automize the checking. Gentoo and Debian demands a little more thinking
from the user, but I think the future of Linux lies in the Gentoo-Debian
direction, they seem to have the best developing communities with a lot
of volunteers working together in a very open and productive manner.

You can also use the 'emerge --clean package_name' to safely get rid of
older versions of the software. To read more about Portage visit
www.gentoo.org and read the Portage manuals. You can also boot from the
CDSystemRescue CD and type 'man emerge'.

I am saving all your messages and will use them when I start working
with Gentoo and Debian.

I have now rebuilt my computer for Linux experiments with separate hard
disks for different versions of Linux, and one for Windows.
A friend is downloading all the debian iso files and I download iso:s
for other linuxes, like Gentoo, Mandrake, etc..

Most of the source code is NOT released by the Gentoo community. It was
released by the original developer (e.g. OpenOffice) using under a GPL. But
to easily install it on a Gentoo box using Portage, ebuild scripts must be
written and put into the Portage database.

Yes, that was what I meant, I just didn't know the right terminology.
The ebuild scripts are the Gentoo way of adapting source code to the
Gentoo system.

A lot of the more experienced Linux seem to gravitate to Gentoo since it is
much more flexible than Debian and the official releases are more current.
I like Gentoo but I wouldn't put it on a slow PC (unless you compile the
software on a fast PC and transfer the binary over to the slower PC).

Yes, it seems like the Gentoo version of Linux is attracting a lot of
competent people.

Do you know the windows powerpro program, and the shells like litestep?
Do you think something like that is possible in Linux, and what would be
the best way to implement such user customizations in Linux?

I think it would be better to use a more generally available programming
language for such customizations in Linux than to create a new program.
Maybe python with some visual elements could be used to create such a
customization layer on top of Linux?

 

[Rob]

Do you know the windows powerpro program, and the shells like
litestep?
Do you think something like that is possible in Linux, and what would
be
the best way to implement such user customizations in Linux?

I am sure there are lots of customization programs out there. And lots of
different shells, window managers and desktops, etc.
IMHO, you can customise Linux much more than Windows. You are pretty much
stuck with the Windows window manager. But you can do some customization
with Windows desktop.

In Linux, most people start with KDE or Gnome. There are great. But like
Windows there are memory hungry. To conserve RAM for the applications, many
Linux users use Fluxbox or another lighter Windows manager. The desktop is
not as pretty but hey most of the time you don't work with the desktop but
the running application like a word pro program.

Knoppix is a good program to try the different Windows managers.....

If you want to learn more about Linux, visit the "IBM Developerworks"
website. There are lots of great FREE tutorials on Linux. Many written by
Daniel Robbins the creator of Gentoo. Just download the PDF and read
offline. (see
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/views/linux/tutorials.jsp or
http://www-136.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/ )

Another great place to start is http://www.linux.org/lessons/

By the way, I don't want to give you the impression that Gentoo and Debian
are really different.
99% of all Linux distros use the SAME software. The differences are
typically the following:

1) Which FREE programs that they bundle with the distro.
(Some distros are geared towards users that Linux to be used as a
server. Consequently, you won't find many desktop programs bundled in these
distros..)

2) Which proprietary programs that they bundle with the distro. Some like
debian have NO proprietary software. Others like Suse have their own
proprietary software (usually related to the installation program and the
software package management system but there may be other tools and
utilities as well. The payware versions of Linux try to convince you that
there value added proprietary programs are worth the purchase of the distro.
That may be true in some cases or applications)

3) Which software package management system is being used. (Many use the
old Redhat RPM which Redhat GPL'd, Debian uses .DEB and Gentoo uses Portage.
All have their pros and cons).

4) Whether the distro is FREE or whether you must pay for it.

5) Whether there are any hidden fees (such as annual fees to access their
database of software packaged to be easily installed on their distro).
Lindows wants you to pay such a yearly fee. Mandrake wants you to join
their Mandrake club. At least with Mandrake, if say no, you can usually
find Mandrake RPM's at free sites that you can manually download.

6) The type of support that is offered. For Linux newbies, buying a
payware version of Linux may be worth it just to get the needed support.
However, the support for the FREE Linux distros in the newsgroups is pretty
good. For mission critical applications, support is a necessity for many
businesses. Redhat is now focusing on that market....

Rob

 

[Roger Johansson]

I am sure there are lots of customization programs out there. And lots of
different shells, window managers and desktops, etc.

I guess a script language with some visual elements could become a
toolbar which stays on top of the rest of the linux programs.

I am thinking about creating toolbars which, like in powerpro, can
performs user defined functions, send keys and mouseclicks to other
programs, react on open windows of other programs, etc..

Maybe there is something like powerpro, or remotekeys, in linux too, I
just haven't heard about it yet.