Creating a RAID 0 set erases disks?

[*Vanguard*]

I am looking into get the Abit NF7-S motherboard which has RAID 0/1 on
its SATA ports. My current drive is PATA (parallel ATA, or IDE) but a
SATA-to-IDE converter is included that supposedly lets me attache my
PATA drive to a SATA port. I would first start out with no RAID sets
and install Windows 2000 (maybe XP) on the drive. Later when I get a
second hard drive, I want to put both the old and new drives into a RAID
0 set to stripe them for performance. Sometime later I'll have to get a
3rd drive to save disk images for backups since the combined size of the
drives is way too large to use tape, CD-R, or DVD media (not now but
eventually). But with Windows already installed on the first drive, and
since I'm warned that adding it to a RAID 0 set (stripped) will erase
all its data, is there no way to get Windows itself into the RAID set so
it, too, gets sped up?

I thought from prior reading that you installed Windows while the drive
was in a regular IDE port (non-RAID port, that is). Then you moved the
drive to the RAID'ed port (SATA in this case), and during boot added
that drive in the RAID set. Sounds good but not if the drive's contents
get erased to add that drive. My prior reading was for a Promise
FastTrak TX2 RAID controller and I thought this is how it described
installing Windows first using the mobo IDE non-RAID ports, powering
down, switch the drive to the Promise controller's RAID ports, and then
booting to get the Promise's BIOS screen to setup the RAID set - and I
thought there was no erasure so Windows could be put into that RAID set.
Maybe the SATA RAID isn't as flexible as when using IDE/PATA RAID ports.

 

[John7]

Hi,

When moving from one drive to RAID 0 you will definately loose all data.
Unless you make an imaging with Norton Ghost (or similar) to a
temporary third harddrive or DVD-R (if it fits). Ghost compresses 2:1,
so a DVD fits about 9 GB.

HTH,
John7

 

[*Vanguard*]

in news:[email protected]:

Hi,

When moving from one drive to RAID 0 you will definately loose all
data. Unless you make an imaging with Norton Ghost (or similar) to a
temporary third harddrive or DVD-R (if it fits). Ghost compresses 2:1,
so a DVD fits about 9 GB.

Don't have a DVD-/+R drive right now (and might not have one in the new
system at first although they've gotten a lot cheaper). So what if:

- Attach hard drive to non-RAID IDE port.
- Install Windows.
- Install RAID drivers in Windows.
- Save a disk image onto CD-R (the Windows install alone should fit on
just a couple CD-Rs).
- Shutdown.
- Move drive from non-RAID IDE port to RAID S-ATA port.
- Boot and go into config screen for RAID controller to add the drive
into a RAID 0 set.
- Insert the bootable disk image CD.
- Restore the disk image to the RAID 0 set that now includes the first
hard drive.
- Reboot and hope Windows loads.

Would that work?

I have Drive Image 2002. I get about the same compression ration as
Ghost. I've tested both and still like Drive Image better. Powerquest
previously informed me that this version of their product supports
creating and restoring disk images using their software to a RAID 0
drive set.

If one drive fails in RAID 0, all drives are unusable. But then I do
drive image backups. At the start, CD-R will do but as I start filling
up the drives then eventually I'll have to get something fast for image
backups, like a 3rd hard drive that is not in the RAID set. Could even
be a USB2.0 external drive so I could save the image and then move the
USB drive to off-site storage.

The only thing I can't check before getting the mobo with RAID on the
SATA ports only is whether the BIOS lets me specify the boot sequence to
include the SATA port and that the drive can be part of a RAID set, too.
Doesn't do any good to move Windows into a RAID set if I cannot then
boot it. The Abit NF7-S manual shows a boot sequence that includes
"Serial ATA" but it's not clear that the drive on the SATA port can also
be in a RAID set.

 

[John7]

Hi,

I think your idea could work although is a trick that would save some work.
See my inserted comments down below (assuming the BIOS supports this).


Alternate method:
You can also try to install Windows on SATA RAID0 right away. You need to
create a floppy with the SATA driver from the motherboard CD first.
During Windows Setup press F6 when a message at the bottom of the screen
informs you. Then insert the floppy and leave it there until told to remove
it.


There are a few things to keep in mind though:
1) Why move to S-ATA anyway ?
S-ATA is only faster on the cable when files are in the harddisk cache
(2/8MB)
Saving a few milliseconds is not noticeable for humans.
The physical drive properties determine the SUSTAINED data throughput
(equal for ATA and SATA).
If speed matters, consider 8MB harddisk cache and Maxtor or Hitachi
(former IBM).
For Raid 0 you can stick to IDE if the conntroller supports it.

2) Even WinXP which is newer that Win2k still struggles with booting from
SATA.
But it might work (interesting to know).

3) In stead of an external USB drive you may consider a removable SATA
harddisk
bracket (cheaper) when your RAID controller and harddrive support hot
plugging.
(that's what I plan to do).


Interesting....
Keep us posted plz.

HTH,
John7

in news:[email protected]:

Don't have a DVD-/+R drive right now (and might not have one in the new
system at first although they've gotten a lot cheaper). So what if:

- Attach hard drive to non-RAID IDE port.
- Install Windows.
- Install RAID drivers in Windows.

ADDED If you have an old harddisk of at least 10GB you can image there.

- Save a disk image onto CD-R (the Windows install alone should fit on
just a couple CD-Rs).
- Shutdown.
- Move drive from non-RAID IDE port to RAID S-ATA port.

ADDED Try booting into Windows, maybe you dream ends here...
ADDED I assume you add the second RAID0 drive here as well !!!

 

[*Vanguard*]

in news:[email protected]:

1) Why move to S-ATA anyway ?

<snip>

Because getting a mobo with IDE RAID but with all the other features
that I wanted was a no go. I had a list of required features and
desirable ones, and then went through all the mobo makers. Eventually I
came down to about 3 or 4 that were about equal so then I choose what
would be easiest to use and provided the most and easiest connectivity
of devices (USB, IEEE-1394, drives, etc.). I settled on the Abit NF7-S
which only has RAID on the SATA ports. The current IDE drive will get
attached to the SATA port using a converter that comes with the mobo
(you can get them separately, too).

I'm not going with SATA because of the proposed higher bandwidth. Hell,
even ATA/133 doesn't give any benefit and there is almost none between
ATA/66 and ATA/100, but Maxtor came out with their marketing gimmick to
try to get dumb consumers thinking ATA/133 would be faster. I'm using
the SATA ports because that's where the ports that the SiliconImage
controller is connected.

3) In stead of an external USB drive you may consider a removable SATA
harddisk
bracket (cheaper) when your RAID controller and harddrive support
hot plugging.
(that's what I plan to do).

I don't want the backup drive to be part of the RAID set; otherwise, I'm
corrupting the set everytime I want to yank the drive and put it
offsite. Also, I don't want to use a removable hard drive since about
the only place that drive could be used is in that same box (i.e., the
box with the other half of the drive chassis that makes it removable).
I'd rather have an external USB drive for backup so I could use it for
restore on any box. It may not just be the drive(s) that fail, so if
the mobo, CPU, memory, or whatever other major subsystem fails then I
can still recover to another machine until I rebuild the broken one.
Since the Abit supports both USB2.0 and IEEE-1394, and since the
external drive box supports both, I can use whichever is faster, but
most boxes have USB ports these days so that's the most portable option.

I really haven't looked into using a DVD+r/-rW drive for backup. Tapes
are just too damn slow and too often I find errors occur if you forget
to retension them. So how much data can I expect with compression for a
DVD-R to hold? My 4GB Travan tapes hold about 7GB after compression.
When a DVD-R says it holds 4.7GB, is that *raw* storage (i.e., without
compression)?

Right now my tapes will cover my backup needs, plus using CD-R but only
for data (other than the disk image of the system partition to provide a
fast recover). So whether I use an external USB/IEEE-1394 hard drive or
go with DVD-RW/+RW is something I'll decide later. Right now I was
trying to get a handle on what I might try to get Windows into the RAID
set. The problem is that the new machine will start with only a single
hard drive so I won't be using RAID when I setup the box in a couple
weeks (too busy to set it up now) and it's doubtful I'll be getting the
2nd drive before I need to start using the box (i.e., the box has to go
into service before I'll get the 2nd drive). So I'll have to set it up
now as a single non-RAID drive now and hope I can RAID it later when I
can get a 2nd drive.

It's not that RAID is a requirement for this new box (and why it is
being first setup with just one drive and no RAID). However, I want to
play with it later by adding another drive and use RAID to see if there
really is any benefit to me in using RAID (versus the hassle in setting
it up and maintaining it). I've not had a RAID'ed box yet so it was
something I wanted to play with.

 

[ronss]

i like raid 0, it speeds up your boot times, and the overall feel seems
faster. your new abit nf7-s board has silicon image chip on it,so you
do not need a raid controller card. i have the gig ga-7n400 pro board,
very similiar to the one you are getting ,and running serial raid with
it. the serial idie adpaters that i like are first the galaxy, and the
silicon image ones are pretty good too. never tried the abit ones.you
can get a lot of help here-
http://www.amdmb.com

you can get lot of answers there.

later


ronss

 

[Kit]

test

I'm not being a wise guy. This is a serious question...
What are you DOING with this PC ?
Like original reply, I can't see "striping for speed" and foregoing backups
unless your moving data around like Google and it's a choice of ONLY
striping OR backup.

I've got a Abit/HotRod100 ide controller and do have mirror drives set for
backing up. I can make/break mirror at BIOS level of the controller.

To reinit as stripe, I'd pull the slave (B) , insert a third drive(C) and
init. Then ghost from the original slave (B) to the new striped set. (A+C)

Instead of tapes and/or DVD media, look for the disk drives when on sale.
I've bought 2 drives 160gb Seagate IDE drives at CompUSA for $59 (after
rebates) in the past few months. (Actually I bought one and had family buy
the other to get the rebates) That's the price of just a few TR4 tapes. They
did have SATA drives onsale there at the same time too. I really didn't do
a lot of research on them since, at my house when I'm moving the data
between drives, it's on the HotRod100 so it's all internal and the speed is
very acceptable. I've moved 30-40gb a few times (when upgrading, replacing
third,fourth drives) between drives and and really been impressed with the
speed, but the other 99.9% of the year, I'm doing "routine IO throughput".

Why the need of striping speed ? You may find after having it a few months
that you may be very happy with even just one drive.