Cost of toner

[Arthur Entlich]

Pete,

You appear to be one of the major trolls here. If you have nothing of
value to say (and indeed looking over your past number of posts, I'd say
that was the case).

You seem to be good with useless one liners, insulting and sometimes
profane comments, and basically getting on about your ridiculous "top
posting" complaint.

It's getting tedious and truly it's insipid. Go find a newsgroup
dedicated to list netequette and I'm sure you'll discover a whole group
of telephone handset sanitizers to collect leaves with. (with apologies
to the late, great Douglas Adams).

Art

 

[pete]

Pete,

You appear to be

<snip - pompous arrogant patronizing drivel>

Only pointing out to you that you wipe your arse with Usenet's etiquette.
http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?toppost

Typical of a clueless ****wit, you respond aggressively.

 

[GP]

Bob Headrick wrote:

In the most recent quarter the "Printing and Imaging" sector had $6.5B of
revenue, out of a company overall of $21.1B.

See:
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/quarters/2004/q4.html.

Thanks so much for this information, Mr Headrick! Unfortunately, at the
present time, my financial analysis is not at this level and I don't worry too
much how and where HP makes its money, but how I will get the best printer for
my money.

So, let's just compare two printers, the HP 1012 and the Brother HL-5140:

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/ca/fr/un/WF06a/18972-236251-236263-14638-236263-377934.html
http://solutions.brother.com/hl5140_all/en_us/spec.html

The Brother HL-5140, after a $50 coupon rebate, comes down to $300 (CAN) at
Staples, the HP 1012, after a $110 instant rebate, is $190. So the 1012 is
much cheaper. Or is it?

The 1012 comes with a 1,000 pages half empty cartridge, the HL-5140 with a
full 3,500 pages cartridge. So you have to pay 2,500 pages extra for the 1012
to get even. At $90 / 2000 pages cartridge(1), that's $90 * 1.25 = $112.50.
$190 + 112.50 = 302.50$. So, they're the same price. Or are they?

(1)
<http://www.staples.ca/ENG/Catalog/c...9,5078&name=MD_Hewlett+Packard_LaserJet+1012&>

The 1012 is host based not networkable, the HL-5140 is networkable. The 1012
has 8 megs unexpandable memory, the HL-5140 16 megs expandable to 144 in case
you want to network it. The HL-5140 offers full PCL6 support, the 1012
language is not stated.

Linuxprinting says: "language looks like PJL + PCL 6" and "HP LaserJet 1010
works (...) with all raster drivers for the HP LaserJet 1100. Unfortunately,
the new LaserJet 1010/1012/1015 series seems not to be absolutely compatible
with older HP printers or it has a firmware bug. Sometimes it happens that the
printer stops working and reports the error "Unsupported Personality: PCL".

http://linuxprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=HP-LaserJet_1012

The ML-5140 has a 250 sheets paper tray option, the 1012, none.

Brother offers a 6,700 sheet cartridge for 135$ at Staples, which means each
page comes down to 2¢. Add 1¢ for the drum, there's still no need to make
prints and then go to the photocopy shop.

(First I thought it was a great advantage that all the refurbishing industry
offered guarantee-ruining HP cartridges. Now, I understand why they don't sell
Brother's

The 1012 weights 13 pounds, the ML-5140, 23. When you look at both printers in
the store, the first looks like a flimsy toy, the second one like a sturdy
piece of equipment.

Reviews say that the 1012 has better graphic quality. But I remember I went
for my Canon BJ-300 because quality was better than the Deskjet 500's and
bitterly regreted it. And I don't remember the last time I printed graphics.

My dear Mr Headrick, I'm counting on you to explain why I should get a HP
printer. You know, with La Fiorina manufacturing-a in China, I'm wondering if
it wouldn't be much cheaper to buy directly from a Chinese, Korean or serious
Japanese printer company.

I kinda think their "overhead" is much lower, mainly when the company's in big
trouble. Maybe you've read "Made in Japan" by Akio Morita. He was the
president of Sony and thought jets weren't such a necessity. So, imagine in Korea!

GP

 

[Arthur Entlich]

LOL,

Oh really?

If I wanted to waste my time, I would quote your last dozen postings,
but obviously your meds have once again run out, and there is no point
arguing with someone who has their brain chemistry out of balance.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

GP, some of your arguments are certainly with merit. I think the
comparison on the HP versus Brother laser printers is a valid way to
analyze a purchasing decision.

Where you are being unfair, however, is your tone with Mr. Bob Headrick.

Bob Headrick's participation on this newsgroup is not sponsored by HP.
He does it on his own dime, to try to be helpful to people who have
questions he can answer. Yes, as an HP employee, he knows a bit about
how they work, or knows who to ask to try to find answers for people who
feel they aren't getting the information they require. But he has made
it clear he cannot be an apologist for HP, and he is isn't here
particularly to defend HP. Heck, for all we know, he may agree with
some of the things you are concerned about.

His being here is a plus for everyone on this group, and we should be
more respectful of his willingness to be helpful.

As I see it, he is no different than I in terms of his place in this
newsgroup. I know a fair amount about Epson printers, and printers in
general, but no one sponsors me here. I try to be helpful, and I try to
be fair.

So, I would ask that you recognize Bob Headrick's position here, and not
badger him, because he is not obligated to be here. He is not here at
HP's bequest, and should he choose to leave, quite a few people will
will left with no HP expert here.

Art

 

[Mickey]

GP, some of your arguments are certainly with merit. I think the
comparison on the HP versus Brother laser printers is a valid way to
analyze a purchasing decision.

Where you are being unfair, however, is your tone with Mr. Bob Headrick.

Bob Headrick's participation on this newsgroup is not sponsored by HP.
He does it on his own dime, to try to be helpful to people who have
questions he can answer. Yes, as an HP employee, he knows a bit about
how they work, or knows who to ask to try to find answers for people who
feel they aren't getting the information they require. But he has made
it clear he cannot be an apologist for HP, and he is isn't here
particularly to defend HP. Heck, for all we know, he may agree with
some of the things you are concerned about.

His being here is a plus for everyone on this group, and we should be
more respectful of his willingness to be helpful.

As I see it, he is no different than I in terms of his place in this
newsgroup. I know a fair amount about Epson printers, and printers in
general, but no one sponsors me here. I try to be helpful, and I try to
be fair.

So, I would ask that you recognize Bob Headrick's position here, and not
badger him, because he is not obligated to be here. He is not here at
HP's bequest, and should he choose to leave, quite a few people will
will left with no HP expert here.

Art

Ain't it the truth!

This group is indeed fortunate to have Bob as a contributor. Bob is
kind and smart enough to help those with questions & problems with HP
printers but he is also smart enough to NOT bite the hand that feeds
him or jump on those that do have a bone to pick with HP.

Thanks Bob.

Mickey

 

[PJX]

Ain't it the truth!

This group is indeed fortunate to have Bob as a contributor. Bob is
kind and smart enough to help those with questions & problems with HP
printers but he is also smart enough to NOT bite the hand that feeds
him or jump on those that do have a bone to pick with HP.

Thanks Bob.

Mickey

Yes.

Bob Headrick is a great resource and I appreciate the useful advice
that he gives.

PJ

 

[GP]

GP, some of your arguments are certainly with merit. I think the
comparison on the HP versus Brother laser printers is a valid way to
analyze a purchasing decision.

Where you are being unfair, however, is your tone with Mr. Bob Headrick.

Bob Headrick's participation on this newsgroup is not sponsored by HP.
He does it on his own time, to try to be helpful to people who have
questions he can answer.

Bob Headrick's interventions here are surely helpful and if he indeed
intervenes here on his own time, he has quite a lot of merit. OTOH, when John
Wrigth writes:

"When I worked for Hewlett Packard some years ago I was given this inside
information - that HP is not a computer company. It is not even a printer
company. It is an ink/toner company. Bulk of its profits comes from ink and
toner."

he is absolutely right. So, though I don't expect Bob to admit we'd be so much
better off buying Samsung or Brother printers, his credibility would fare
better if he kept from answering nonsense in defense of HP,

Cf.:
<http://groups.google.com/[email protected]&lr=&hl=fr>

mainly that he contends not to answer as an HP employee.

The problem with this kind of answer is that La Fiorina might think all HP is
siding with her. And I certainly hope such is not the case. And though I wish
Bob to get one promotion after another at HP, I wish it won't be at the
expense of tricking people into buying HP products here.

Now, if I sometimes seem to insist, it's just that I'm no computer expert and
if there's any reason to prefer HP that I'm not aware of, I'd like to hear it.
And Bob is certainly the person to give us any information in favor of HP
products.

But please, no "Ink and toner are so expensive" bullshit here.
Cf.: "HP's La Fiorina is playing the ink game"
<http://groups.google.com/[email protected]&lr=&hl=fr>

Regards!

GP

 

[GP]

Now, if I sometimes seem to insist, it's just that I'm no computer
expert and if there's any reason to prefer HP that I'm not aware of, I'd
like to hear it. And Bob is certainly the person to give us any
information in favor of HP products.

Here's an information Bob sould have given. I just called a company that
services both HP and Brother. I was told that all of HP's cartridges include
the drum. The Brother HL-5140 has a separate drum and it seems it never lasts
the quoted 20,000 sheets, but more like 12,000 - 15,000 pages.

That brings the cost per print much closer. So, maybe this lady will get HP
one more sale, not Bob.

When you buy a printer once every 10 years, you're not an expert, you want the
facts and, gee! are they ever hard to get!

GP

 

[Bob Headrick]

Here's an information Bob sould have given. I just called a company that
services both HP and Brother. I was told that all of HP's cartridges include
the drum. The Brother HL-5140 has a separate drum and it seems it never lasts
the quoted 20,000 sheets, but more like 12,000 - 15,000 pages.

That may be true. I am *not* a LaserJet expert. I personally owned a
LaserJet,+, LaserJet II, LaserJet III and LaserJet 4 over the years, but since
I moved from the VLSI design part of HP to inkjets I have not kept up with the
LaserJet side of things. I still keep the LaserJet 4 around in case I want to
print some PC board transfers, but have to admit that it gets turned on about
once a year or so.

Thanks for all the kind works from Art, PJ and Mickey.

- Bob Headrick, 10 years as an inkjet guy for HP

 

[Bob Headrick]

Hi Art -

Thanks for the support.

- Bob

GP, some of your arguments are certainly with merit. I think the comparison
on the HP versus Brother laser printers is a valid way to analyze a
purchasing decision.

Where you are being unfair, however, is your tone with Mr. Bob Headrick.

Bob Headrick's participation on this newsgroup is not sponsored by HP. He
does it on his own dime, to try to be helpful to people who have questions he
can answer. Yes, as an HP employee, he knows a bit about how they work, or
knows who to ask to try to find answers for people who feel they aren't
getting the information they require. But he has made it clear he cannot be
an apologist for HP, and he is isn't here particularly to defend HP. Heck,
for all we know, he may agree with some of the things you are concerned
about.

His being here is a plus for everyone on this group, and we should be more
respectful of his willingness to be helpful.

As I see it, he is no different than I in terms of his place in this
newsgroup. I know a fair amount about Epson printers, and printers in
general, but no one sponsors me here. I try to be helpful, and I try to be
fair.

So, I would ask that you recognize Bob Headrick's position here, and not
badger him, because he is not obligated to be here. He is not here at HP's
bequest, and should he choose to leave, quite a few people will will left
with no HP expert here.

Art

 

[Mickey]

Thanks for all the kind works from Art, PJ and Mickey.

- Bob Headrick, 10 years as an inkjet guy for HP

No need of thanks for speaking the truth.

If you read my other posts you likely know I'm a former HP guy. Still
have friends in Corvallis and son is a mfg eng at Vanc. Son says he
either knows you or of you. He spoke well of you when we once talked
about your contributions to this forum.

Mickey
HP retiree 25+ yrs McM

 

[John Beardmore]

That may be true. I am *not* a LaserJet expert. I personally owned a
LaserJet,+, LaserJet II, LaserJet III and LaserJet 4 over the years, but since
I moved from the VLSI design part of HP to inkjets I have not kept up with the
LaserJet side of things. I still keep the LaserJet 4 around in case I want to
print some PC board transfers,

What do you print on to for that ?


Cheers, J/.

 

[Bob Headrick]

What do you print on to for that ?

I use TEC-200 film from the Meadowlake Corp and Toner Transfer System. See
http://home.netnam.vn/elib/index.asp?SilverYear=94&id=28433&progid=301 or
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/dirtoner.pdf for details. My stuff is 10 years old
or so, I do not know if these are still in business.

Regards,
Bob Headrick

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I can't (nor would I, if I could) speak for Mr. Headrick.

I "read" his reply differently than you did, I guess. It seemed to me
he was indicating from those financials that a great deal of HP's
profits come from the printing and imaging sector of the company. I
didn't get the impression he was suggesting that toners and inks are
inherently very costly to make.

I'm quite sure Cary Fiorina is aware of how employees view here vision.
There was a vote of "confidence" of sorts during the Compaq merger,
and since most HP employees own HP stock they got to vote on it, and
they were pretty firmly opposed from the numbers I read, I suspect she
got the hint.

However, for the sake of information only, I did a bit of digging into
the 2003 annual report, and if I understand the figures correctly,
here's the rundown. Of course, this simplifies things, because cost of
R&D doesn't always bear fruit the same year as it is spent.

Printing & Imagining Division: Revenues: $22.6 billion
Operating Profits: $3.75 billion

HP Services Division: Revenues: $12.3 billion
Operating Profits: $1.37 billion

Personal Systems Division: Revenues: $21.23 billion
Operating Profit: $19 million

Enterprise Systems Division: Revenues: $15.38 billion
Operating Profit: -$54 million (loss)

So, in terms of total profits, in 2003, the Printing and Imaging
Division made the highest profit, and I'd expect that the highest
profits within that division were in consumables (inks, toners and paper
goods).

That would indeed imply that the profits were mainly due to sales in
those items.

That information, GP, is also public, BTW.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

One of the reasons it is difficult to make a fair analysis of the best
purchase is because many laser printer companies use differing designs.

I have owned a number of laser printers over the years, and I have
looked into them with some detail.

The Canon engine printers (Such as HP) usually use a cartridge that
contains a large portion of the printing mechanism. The drum, magnetic
roller, corona wires, developer and toner (one item in this case) are
all replaced with the cartridge. I have owned three of these style
printers.

Some people successfully refill the toner/developer several times in
this type of cartridge and get reasonable prints.

Other systems (like a Panasonic model I own) uses three separate parts
where the Canon uses one. The Panasonic model I use has a separate drum
unit, toner unit and developer unit with magnetic roller. Each have a
different lifespan. The toner is used up first, followed by the
developer and drum. However, I discovered that the drum, which is very
costly to replace, is the exact same dimensions as that used in several
HP/Canon toner cartridges.

So, when the drum on mine was damaged, I bought a new rebuilder's
replacement drum for an HP II cartridge for $11 US and exchanged the
gears from my Panasonic unit with the bad drum, and saved myself about
$150 US.

Some models, like a Konica-Minolta laser printer I purchased use two
units. It has a drum, and a toner cartridge, each separate and each
having a different lifespan, depending upon which yield toner cartridge
you buy.

So, as you can see, the problem is that there is no simple method to
fully analyze the best value without considerable knowledge and
experience. As you stated, some models or parts do not reach their
published lifespan either. And none of this tells us anything about
quality of the print or graphics.

Panasonic claimed with my printer that I would save money because I only
had to replace the one item which was used up. In principle, that may
have been true, but my experience in owning the machine now for quite a
few years is that the design of those parts of the printer is
problematic. Toner sometimes spills or leaks, the drum wiper doesn't
always clean the drum properly, and the design for removing the excess
toner never worked correctly and tended to clump and clog and back up
old toner. On the other hand my HP printers tended to work much more
reliably, and replacing the cartridge meant a new drum, fresh toner and
developer, and fresh magnetic roller.

I am not defecting or recommending any one brand over another. I have
obviously used several (plus three other with photocopiers) and each
have their strengths and weaknesses.

Sadly, all that I see these days have gone to the same business model,
that being, to keep cost of initial acquisition down, and cost of
consumables up.

Art

 

[GP]

I can't (nor would I, if I could) speak for Mr. Headrick.

I "read" his reply differently than you did, I guess. It seemed to me
he was indicating from those financials that a great deal of HP's
profits come from the printing and imaging sector of the company. I
didn't get the impression he was suggesting that toners and inks are
inherently very costly to make.

While John Wright said that HP is "an ink/toner company", Bob Headrick pointed
out that "In the most recent quarter the "Printing and Imaging" sector had
$6.5B of revenue, out of a company overall of $21.1B". So, printing an imaging
seemed just a little part of HP's business.

But, as John Wright answered:

"Your figures are right, but a couple of points to note here:

1. You are talking revenue, I am talking profits. HP gets a lot of revenue
in areas where they make little profit, or even loss.

2. The figures published for their Printing & Imaging division do not show
the figures for ink/toner separately from printers. You can't tell from the
figures that they are at best breaking even on printers (perhaps even making
a loss) but make a killing on ink/toner (again, looking at profits not
revenue). This information is not published - this is where the inside
information came in."

--------------------------

So the figures provided by Mr Headrick are irrelevant. He's trying to hide the
fact that HP is thriving on ink as a vampire on blood. I don't find it's an
honest answer.

However, for the sake of information only, I did a bit of digging into
the 2003 annual report

Is it online? URL?

and if I understand the figures correctly,
here's the rundown. Of course, this simplifies things, because cost of
R&D doesn't always bear fruit the same year as it is spent.

Printing & Imagining Division: Revenues: $22.6 billion
Operating Profits: $3.75 billion

16.6 % margin

HP Services Division: Revenues: $12.3 billion
Operating Profits: $1.37 billion

11.1% margin

Personal Systems Division: Revenues: $21.23 billion
Operating Profit: $19 million

0.08% margin

Enterprise Systems Division: Revenues: $15.38 billion
Operating Profit: -$54 million (loss)

- (minus) 0.35% margin, loss on revenue.

So, in terms of total profits, in 2003, the Printing and Imaging
Division made the highest profit, and I'd expect that the highest
profits within that division were in consumables (inks, toners and paper
goods).

That's exactly what John Wright was saying.

And how much do investor get from the Great Merger Robbery? 0.08% . Now that
IBM has sold its personal system division to Lenovo, it's going to be a
killing game between Dell and Levono where HP will be squashed.

In Quebec, Microbytes is thriving. Contrary to Future Shop and Staples offers,
where Compaq-HP is just about the only offer for the desktop, you can build
your computer the way you like and, instead of sending the computer to
Mississauga or God knows where for service, it's done onsite. When you get to
know the personnel, you know who you should talk to.

What will it take before investors understand that they've hired a John Roth
look-alike?

That information, GP, is also public, BTW.

Though I don't have much time to study it, mainly given that I don't need it,
giving the URL would be nice.

GP

 

[GP]

One of the reasons it is difficult to make a fair analysis of the best
purchase is because many laser printer companies use differing designs.

And it's the same for every product: a company comes up with a cheaper design
and sweeps the market. The problem is "cheap" is most often meant in both
senses of the term and the market is swamped with junk.

The funny thing is to see honest companies, such as former HP, are ready to
scrap their reputation and go head on for the masquerading game instead of
trying to explain why their product is better.

Of course, not all people are ready to study all the ins and outs of a
technology before buying but, as we see on thos group, some are. And, when it
comes to buying, people who aren't call people who are. We call people who
know more and we're called when we know more.

But the invertabrates that run companies nowadays do not believe in the value
of a reputation anymore. All that counts is immediate profit, the reputation
doesn't show in the books at the end of the year.

Somehow, -- because of the conjuncture, they say -- the profit evaporates and
business appears full of mysteries.

The Canon engine printers (Such as HP) usually use a cartridge that
contains a large portion of the printing mechanism. The drum, magnetic
roller, corona wires, developer and toner (one item in this case) are
all replaced with the cartridge. I have owned three of these style
printers.

Three! I hope you print a lot

So, when the drum on mine was damaged, I bought a new rebuilder's
replacement drum for an HP II cartridge for $11 US and exchanged the
gears from my Panasonic unit with the bad drum, and saved myself about
$150 US.

Some cartridge companies say they change the drum every time they refurbish a
cartridge. Do you believe that? I'd bet that, even at half the original's
price, they still make a bundle.

So, as you can see, the problem is that there is no simple method to
fully analyze the best value without considerable knowledge and
experience.

Yes, I understand. But a little knowledge is better than nothing, I suppose.
It sometimes helps avoiding the deapest pitfalls.

The problem, as I said, is that pretty much all companies now play the
bullshit game and information is hard to get. You get some here, some from
friends, from HowThingsWork, etc. but it's a frustrating game.

As you stated, some models or parts do not reach their
published lifespan either. And none of this tells us anything about
quality of the print or graphics.

And sometimes, when there is a lot of talk about the quality of the final
product, you find that it's based on a complex and delicate technology that
you'd have been better staying clear of.

Panasonic claimed with my printer that I would save money because I only
had to replace the one item which was used up. In principle, that may
have been true, but my experience in owning the machine now for quite a
few years is that the design of those parts of the printer is
problematic. Toner sometimes spills or leaks, the drum wiper doesn't
always clean the drum properly, and the design for removing the excess
toner never worked correctly and tended to clump and clog and back up
old toner. On the other hand my HP printers tended to work much more
reliably, and replacing the cartridge meant a new drum, fresh toner and
developer, and fresh magnetic roller.

Indeed. That's the way more recent consumer oriented printers seem to go. Such
is the case for the Samsung ML-1740, for instance. Compared to HP 1012, you
get 1000 pages worth more of toner for about 5$. But the graphic printing
quality is only so-so and the linux driver is not open-sourced.

I am not defecting or recommending any one brand over another. I have
obviously used several (plus three other with photocopiers) and each
have their strengths and weaknesses.

Sadly, all that I see these days have gone to the same business model,
that being, to keep cost of initial acquisition down, and cost of
consumables up.

Yup...

GP

 

[Bob Headrick]

Arthur Entlich wrote:

Is it online? URL?

Yes, it is online and accessible from the previous link I gave. You can get
annual reports from 2000-2004 at
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/annual/, and there are also links
to quarterly information from 2004 back through 2002.

- Bob Headrick

 

[GP]

Yes, it is online and accessible from the previous link I gave. You can get
annual reports from 2000-2004 at
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/annual/, and there are also links
to quarterly information from 2004 back through 2002.

- Bob Headrick

You're very kind, Bob. In my appreciation, reading annual reports from big
corporations scales next to a visit to Disney. They care about their
employees, subsidize education, are environmently conscious and they even pay
dividends when they incur losses. It's black and white and yellow people gayly
sharing the technology, all in colourful smiles in front if the camera.

At worst, you might learn that all information may not all be GAAP compliant.
But, who cares, it's on the last page.

What is more interesting is the 10-K form. But HP's is 174 page long and, in
order to understand what's going on, you must print it for quick back and
forth reference and spend a week studying it with a good whisky in hand.
Unfortunately, you know how much expensive ink is and I'm a bit short of
whisky these days.

Besides, 10-K forms are far from telling the whole story. I'm sure if you had
consulted those of WorldCom, Enron, Nortel, the year before everything went
haywire, the forms would have described paradise. No analysis makes sense
without a deep understanding of the market state in a peculiar business and an
*insider's view*.

I have a shallow understanding of the market HP's in, but no insider's view. A
good conversation with Walter Hewlett would certainly help, but I'm not sure
he's willing to pay the whisky.

So, as a mere consumer, all that remains is to find out what the company
manages to offer for my money. Whence the ink questions in the message entitled:

"Ink at $1228.95 (US) a liter: two questions to Bob Headrick".
(e-mail address removed)

This is the message I would really appreciate you answer.

Regards!

GP