J
J. Clarke
To which "Pros" are you referring? And in what manner does it "out perform
all other types of backup"? Capacity? Speed? Reliability?
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To which "Pros" are you referring? And in what manner does it "out perform
all other types of backup"? Capacity? Speed? Reliability?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J
J. Clarke
Daniel said:
For a large system a product such as Novell Zenworks can help deal with
this--it takes a snapshot of the system before and after an application is
installed, and after you clean up the excess baggage (something always
seems to change that has nothing to do with the installation) you can
quickly reinstall or install to other systems from the snapshot. It's also
very nice for figuring out what actually _did_ happen during the
installation when the installation hoses something.
D
Dorothy Bradbury
MOD/DVD-RAM (similar technology) is very good for smaller backups
Indeed - I use MO for just that reason, however now also use DVD-RAM:
o MO media QC has blips - a few too many
---- Sony 540MB 3.5" -- block errors on new disks
---- Fujitsu own 3.5" -- block error on *same place* on every disk - factory format
error
o DVD-RAM has been ok - and is higher capacity
---- £ 10 will get a two-sided 9.4GB disk
---- LG-4082B will write to them once removed from the caddy
Since I use DVD-RAM once-only for archive the removal from the caddy is minor.
If bothered use cotton gloves - whatever - it's 15x MO capacity for the same price.
MO is best for the most critical backups
o It was designed for data reliability from the ground up like DLT
o It is not a converted audio standard like helical scan DAT, or DVD
However, the "real" MO systems are based around the 5.25" form-factor:
o New blue-laser ones offer a migration path to very high data capacities
o The 5.25" form factor is relatively well proven in medical/mil/industrial
For the most part, DVD-RAM offers a good half-way house:
o Reliability is good - it is Phase-Change unlike DVD+/-R & has better error correction
o Drives are cheap - so having 2 different branded drives isn't impossible (or suppliers
o Disks are cheap - 9.4GB can be had for just £6.99, sealed, a bit more elsewhere
MO is ~£200 drive & ~£10 media for 1.3GB v ~£60 drive & ~7 media for 9.4GB.
Critical stuff is best on MO, but with those media errors I think it's forget about
decades:
o Yes, backup media can last a long time - DVD-RAM probably, MO most probably
o However, it is perhaps more economic to keep changing technology every few yrs
---- because technology will offer more capacity, perhaps more reliability for less cost
---- that is particularly so with media cost as archives grow - eg, DVD-RAM v MO
Agreed - many people backup to DVD-RAM or HDs "incorrectly"
o They simply drag-n-drop files - directory is there, so it must be ok
o Better to use a proper backup tool - that actually does a proper compare
---- altho even XCOPY can be forced to do a verification as I recall
---- on DVD-RAM that might be an exercise in s-l-o-w-n-e-s-s however
If HDs are used, I prefer a "micro-PC" converted to NAS - with a few scripts to check
the data integrity progressively to another identical machine working in parallel. That
need not be particularly expensive - Mini-ITX snails don't cost much, recycle some of
the older 1U PSUs, make/re-use a case, whatever. Match solution to data criticality.
Indeed - I use MO for just that reason, however now also use DVD-RAM:
o MO media QC has blips - a few too many
---- Sony 540MB 3.5" -- block errors on new disks
---- Fujitsu own 3.5" -- block error on *same place* on every disk - factory format
error
o DVD-RAM has been ok - and is higher capacity
---- £ 10 will get a two-sided 9.4GB disk
---- LG-4082B will write to them once removed from the caddy
Since I use DVD-RAM once-only for archive the removal from the caddy is minor.
If bothered use cotton gloves - whatever - it's 15x MO capacity for the same price.
MO is best for the most critical backups
o It was designed for data reliability from the ground up like DLT
o It is not a converted audio standard like helical scan DAT, or DVD
However, the "real" MO systems are based around the 5.25" form-factor:
o New blue-laser ones offer a migration path to very high data capacities
o The 5.25" form factor is relatively well proven in medical/mil/industrial
For the most part, DVD-RAM offers a good half-way house:
o Reliability is good - it is Phase-Change unlike DVD+/-R & has better error correction
o Drives are cheap - so having 2 different branded drives isn't impossible (or suppliers
o Disks are cheap - 9.4GB can be had for just £6.99, sealed, a bit more elsewhere
MO is ~£200 drive & ~£10 media for 1.3GB v ~£60 drive & ~7 media for 9.4GB.
Critical stuff is best on MO, but with those media errors I think it's forget about
decades:
o Yes, backup media can last a long time - DVD-RAM probably, MO most probably
o However, it is perhaps more economic to keep changing technology every few yrs
---- because technology will offer more capacity, perhaps more reliability for less cost
---- that is particularly so with media cost as archives grow - eg, DVD-RAM v MO
Agreed - many people backup to DVD-RAM or HDs "incorrectly"
o They simply drag-n-drop files - directory is there, so it must be ok
o Better to use a proper backup tool - that actually does a proper compare
---- altho even XCOPY can be forced to do a verification as I recall
---- on DVD-RAM that might be an exercise in s-l-o-w-n-e-s-s however
If HDs are used, I prefer a "micro-PC" converted to NAS - with a few scripts to check
the data integrity progressively to another identical machine working in parallel. That
need not be particularly expensive - Mini-ITX snails don't cost much, recycle some of
the older 1U PSUs, make/re-use a case, whatever. Match solution to data criticality.
S
Shailesh Humbad
David said:
Well, consider also backing up to an online server. You can get a
Gigabyte of space for about $10 per month. What I'm going to do is
write a script that encrypts my most important files, and then sends
them by ftp to the online server. Then, I keep the secret key file on
only on a CD. This way, I can keep the encrypted backup files in
relatively non-secure locations, and keep only a minimal amount of
data on physical CDs. The public key is stored anywhere I need to
create encrypted files. Here's an article on how to use gnupg to do this:
http://www.somacon.com/blog/page7.php
A
Arno Wagner
Well, not quite. The last time I bought 3.5" 640MB MOs, I paid 5 Euro
for each. The cheapest DVD-RAM I find is the same price for 4.7GB.
That is a factor of 7. Still signifficant if you do large backups.
I agree. In 7 years regular MO usage I have still to see my first
unrecoverable read error. (I had to clean cartridtges two times,
but that resolved the problems with them completely.)
Actually many hostpitals in Europe use 3.5" MOD for computer images.
They have to keep the info for 20years by law, e.g. in Germany
or Switzerland and a few of these 640MODs are enough for a day.
I would say 3.5" MOD is professional today. 5.25" MOD seems to
have stalled development some time ago.
For the most part, DVD-RAM offers a good half-way house:
o Reliability is good - it is Phase-Change unlike DVD+/-R &
has better error correction
o Drives are cheap - so having 2 different branded drives
isn't impossible (or suppliers
o Disks are cheap - 9.4GB can be had for just £6.99, sealed,
a bit more elsewhere
However there is the cartridge issue. Drop a DVD-RAM and it may
be gone. A MOD does not care. Also remember that MOD has 30 Million
certified overwrites while DVD-RAM without cartridge only has 10.000.
If you only do backups, that does not matter much. I also use my MODs
in "HDD mode", i.e. move around files, do small changes, etc..
Depends. I have still about the same needs for high-reliability backups.
After I nearly lost some important stuff 7 years ago, I got a 640MB
MO drive. I still get my system and home backups on just two of these
disks and I still have all the original disks and the original drive
in use without problems. The last time I bought disks is 3 years ago,
the ~30 GB ultra-reliable storage I have is more than enough.
For the less critical stuff I keep copies on other computers.
MOD is fit to keep you Master's thesis, family photos, tax data you
need to store for decades (in some countries), scans of your degree,
in short all the things you absolutely do not want to loose. Also most
data recovery companies will convert MOD to some other format for you
for a modest fee and that type of offer should be around really long.
So even if you do not have a drive anymore in 30 years, that data
should still be accessible.
If your storage needs grow fast (my orgiginal complete systems backup
fit on just one 640MB MOD), then MOD is not the right solution
today. (It was by far the cheapest 7 years ago. And it is still
around. That should tell you something.)
Actually you should script this stuff. I am still surprised that MS
does not deliver a proper and easy to use backup tool with thir OS.
It is not that difficult. I use unix tar, perhaps one of the oldest
UNIX tools with good success.
Yes, that is what I use at home for the less critical stuff.
A Mini-ITX box with a 120GB HDD is just fine for this.
.... and to data amounth and actuallity. Only then will you get
something satisfactory.
Arno
D
David R
What is the failure rate of your burns with these DVDs?
If you have zero manufacturing defects and zero burn failures then it
is impressive.
G
Guest
phorbin said:
Fell over as in stopped working properly - I don't know the details
Personally I have seen Win2k trash a (cheap) stripped array because one of
the drives was a bit sticky on power up. The RAID BIOS didn't recognise the
set and w2k thought the remaining drive was corrupt and attempted to 'fix'
it on boot without any operator intervention.
A RAID 0/5 protects you against drive failure, it offers no protection
against all the other ways data can be lost.
M
Michael Salem
nospam said:
Also, FILES get corrupted or otherwise damaged without affecting the
hard disc. It's very nice to have a week's daily backups and a month's
weekly backups on tape (9 tapes).
Best wishes,
M
mrlipring
Why so? You can get 4x ritek discs for £20 for 100. You'd be hard pushed
to find better discs, imo. I used to be a verbatim man, but after
experiencing read errors on discs written only 2 or 3 years ago...
P
phorbin
Fell over??? As in dropped to the floor?[email protected] said:
B
Bernard Peek
Michael said:
Pretty much essential. In my experience the main use for backup tapes is
to restore files that users have deleted. A RAID array doesn't protect
against that. In fact I haven't ever needed to use a backup tape for any
other purpose, and I've been working with computers for 25 years.
B
Bernard Peek
In message <[email protected]>, Arno Wagner <[email protected]>
writes
They do. If you understand how to write batch files you can use ntbackup
to do complex scripted backups. It's a very powerful tool but almost
completely undocumented.
writes
They do. If you understand how to write batch files you can use ntbackup
to do complex scripted backups. It's a very powerful tool but almost
completely undocumented.
N
Neil Maxwell
You won't know if the Riteks suffer from this same problem for another
2 or 3 years, right? It's also important to remember that Verbatim
isn't a manufacturer, but a vendor. Verbatim-labeled discs are made
by whoever won the most recent contract (including Ritek).
Ritek used to make awful CDRs - some of the worst available - but I
understand their quality is better on DVDs. Haven't tried them
myself, though.
M
Michael Salem
Bernard said:
You could run Netware as the network operating system, on a hard disc
with plenty of free space. All deleted files are salvageable until
overwritten (oldest first). There are programs for Windows that add
similar functionality I believe. Shouldn't be used to replace a backup
system (for several obvious reasons), but very handy.
Best wishes,
M
mrlipring
well, i've got riteks that are a year or 2 old, and they're fine so far.
Time will tell.
I referred to verb discs, as verbatim were supposedly the kings of
quality, only choosing the best discs etc. Lifetime swap guarantees etc.
A
Arno Wagner
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Bernard Peek said:
The last word may be the key. That would be the missing "easy
to use". Anyway, I just observe this. I use Linux for all
my backups, including those of Windows installations. ;-)
Arno
B
Bernard Peek
Michael said:
Undelete has been available since the days of MS-DOS but it does rely on
the space still being available and doesn't prioritise the use of
"empty" space. Thanks for the info on Netware though.
And yes, this ("shadow copies") is a new feature of the latest versions
of Microsoft software. As I understand it to be able to fully use the
feature you need to be running Office 2003 and store the data files on a
Windows 2003 server.
B
Bernard Peek
In message <[email protected]>, Arno Wagner <[email protected]>
writes
ntbackup /? >ntbackup.txt
Instant documentation. I know of a site that exists to provide
ultra-reliable offsite backup over the Internet. They do all of their
own backups using ntbackup and batch files. Once you understand the
command-line switches you can write batch files quite easily. There are
versions available that will backup Exchange Server and SQL Server
systems too.
writes
ntbackup /? >ntbackup.txt
Instant documentation. I know of a site that exists to provide
ultra-reliable offsite backup over the Internet. They do all of their
own backups using ntbackup and batch files. Once you understand the
command-line switches you can write batch files quite easily. There are
versions available that will backup Exchange Server and SQL Server
systems too.
M
Michael Salem
....
Not at all the same thing. Many's the time I have slaved to try to
recover a deleted MS-DOS file which had been stored on non-contiguous
disc sectors. The more advanced undelete systems such as Windows Recycle
bin would only store what had been deleted on purpose. But Netware would
store all files deleted in any way; for example. multiple copies of a
document being edited. No good for databases though, as the data files
are directly modified, rather than being backed up and replaced by a
newer version.
To be useful you need to store all files. I understand that programs
that provide the same functionality as Netware for Windows are
available.
Best wishes,
Bernard said:
Not at all the same thing. Many's the time I have slaved to try to
recover a deleted MS-DOS file which had been stored on non-contiguous
disc sectors. The more advanced undelete systems such as Windows Recycle
bin would only store what had been deleted on purpose. But Netware would
store all files deleted in any way; for example. multiple copies of a
document being edited. No good for databases though, as the data files
are directly modified, rather than being backed up and replaced by a
newer version.
To be useful you need to store all files. I understand that programs
that provide the same functionality as Netware for Windows are
available.
Best wishes,
G
Gary
I have used Nero to make a backup of drive C: to 19 DVDs . The messages were
all correct but I cannot restore now ,I have reinstalled windows XP home
but Nero wants a file that it did not write on the DVDs and if I try to do
it from the disk it starts a DOS prog then complains about the disk being
accessed directly and stops.
I thought I was using good software for the purpose it was meant for and I
would be able to restore. a lot of what is on there is un replaceable and
I thought I did the right thing by backing up . the Nero help files are
not much help.
what to do now?
Thanks for your help.
Gary
all correct but I cannot restore now ,I have reinstalled windows XP home
but Nero wants a file that it did not write on the DVDs and if I try to do
it from the disk it starts a DOS prog then complains about the disk being
accessed directly and stops.
I thought I was using good software for the purpose it was meant for and I
would be able to restore. a lot of what is on there is un replaceable and
I thought I did the right thing by backing up . the Nero help files are
not much help.
what to do now?
Thanks for your help.
Gary