copying the hidden XP recovery partition

[Matt]

I have a four-year-old IBM desktop with XP Pro. It has a hidden
partition containing a copy of XP Pro and what is called the "Product
Recovery Program". I guess it is common nowadays that the vendor
provides a partition like that (instead of a Windows CD) for getting the
system software back to the factory-new state. I have used it once to
wipe and reinstall the system, and it worked fine.

The computer is out of warranty, so it seems that if the hard drive were
to go bad, I would lose the only copy of the OS and would have to pay
who knows how much for a Windows CD.

So I would like to set up a spare hard drive with a copy of that hidden
recovery partition. Can I do that with ordinary methods (disk
partitioning, file copying)? Is there a howto somewhere for this, or
can somebody offer some advice on the details?

 

[Mary]

Matt:
Not only would you "lost the only copy of the OS" should your HDD "go bad",
but also all your programs & user-created data as well.

I'm sure you're aware of this but I mention it only to emphasize that what
you should give serious consideration to is establishing & maintaining a
backup system that you would employ on a routine basis; a backup system that
would be comprehensive in scope, i.e., one that would back up the *entire*
contents of your HDD, not just the "recovery partition". So that your
operating system, all programs & applications, all user-created data - in
short, *everything* that's on your day-to-day working HDD would be backed
up.

You can accomplish this rather easily with a disk-to-disk cloning or
disk-imaging program. One method is to use a USB external HDD as the
recipient of the clone, i.e., the "destination" HDD. So that in the event of
catastrophic failure of your internal HDD you would have at hand a "clone"
of that HDD and could use the clone to resurrect your system by cloning the
contents of the external HDD back to a new internal HDD. The process is
relatively simple & straightforward and would similarly be available should
your internal HDD, though not defective, become unbootable/dysfunctional
because of corruption of the OS.

We all have our preferences as to which program we prefer. I'm sure others
will indicate their favorites.
Anna

Anna, I dont have a computer with "Recovery program" but my daughter does
and I fix her computer when anything is wrong, and also if I get another
computer, it seems that all manufacturers are now only providing "Recovery
backups". I was wondering can you not copy the entire contents of your
computer onto another internal hard drive which has nothing on it, rather
than an external hard drive. I have an extra IDE hard drive which I don't
use. (My present computer only uses IDE connectors, I have no SATA drives).
I have never done any complete backups and wouldn't know how to do it, but
this thread has made me think. Is there any free backup programs that are
simple to use to transfer all information on a hard drive to an empty hard
drive?. I use Win 98 but have Win XP on a separate partition for when I need
it. I like Win 98 as its not as cluttered as Win XP, and Vista is something
far into my future I hope.

Mary

 

[John Doe]

....

Somehow I think Matt already has a backup copy of important files.

Is there any free backup programs that are
simple to use to transfer all information on a hard drive to an
empty hard drive?.

The most important folder is probably My Documents. Not sure about
Vista, but that is the folder of interest in most versions of
Windows. So copy My Documents to some removable media or another
hard drive. There might be other user produced data that should be
copied, so try to identify the location of and copy that too. I use
a partition D called KEEP. That's where I put the pictures I've
taken and edited, lots of configuration files, my personal
documents, and whatever other stuff of value like purchased
software. And that's what I regularly copy to removable media.

Good luck.

 

[John Doe]

Another one with backup-phobia I note!

The problem isn't with backup, the problem is having to buy a copy
of Windows XP if his hard drive fails.

 

[Mary]

...

Somehow I think Matt already has a backup copy of important files.


The most important folder is probably My Documents. Not sure about
Vista, but that is the folder of interest in most versions of
Windows. So copy My Documents to some removable media or another
hard drive. There might be other user produced data that should be
copied, so try to identify the location of and copy that too. I use
a partition D called KEEP. That's where I put the pictures I've
taken and edited, lots of configuration files, my personal
documents, and whatever other stuff of value like purchased
software. And that's what I regularly copy to removable media.

Good luck.

I was thinking also along the lines of what John Doe said in another message
when he said:

"The problem isn't with backup, the problem is having to buy a copy
of Windows XP if his hard drive fails."

And like Matt, I was wondering how you can copy the hidden Recovery disk
information onto another drive.
How can you access the hidden Recovery disk information?
When my daughter got her computer, it was ready made and I only added a
video card. I also created Recovery disks.
I thought, though maybe I am wrong, that Recovery disks could be used if
somehow your files got corrupted and you could use the Recovery disks as if
they were a backup and be able to put Win XP back in your system as it if
was a complete WinXP install only its a backup image. I wonder if Matt made
CDR's or DVD copies of the Recovery partition.

Mary

 

[John Doe]

I was thinking also along the lines of what John Doe said in
another message when he said:

"The problem isn't with backup, the problem is having to buy a
copy of Windows XP if his hard drive fails."

And like Matt, I was wondering how you can copy the hidden
Recovery disk information onto another drive.

I was trying to answer the simpler question, that appeared in this
branch.

There are hard drive cloning programs that might work, but I'm not
familiar with OEM operating system recovery methods and good cloning
programs are not free.

I have a copy of Windows XP and a disk manager (currently Disk
Director) that is used to make hidden copies of the Windows
installation. Besides having a separate copy of important files, I
use that hidden copy whenever Windows needs fixing and I'd like to
quickly restore it. But that method requires the user to know where
important files are so he (or she) can copy them before deleting
Windows and putting the good copy in its place. It also requires
Windows and a disk manager.

Good luck.

 

[Mary]

I was trying to answer the simpler question, that appeared in this
branch.

There are hard drive cloning programs that might work, but I'm not
familiar with OEM operating system recovery methods and good cloning
programs are not free.

I have a copy of Windows XP and a disk manager (currently Disk
Director) that is used to make hidden copies of the Windows
installation. Besides having a separate copy of important files, I
use that hidden copy whenever Windows needs fixing and I'd like to
quickly restore it. But that method requires the user to know where
important files are so he (or she) can copy them before deleting
Windows and putting the good copy in its place. It also requires
Windows and a disk manager.

These are the things I wondered about. I am not going to be doing anything
about it for now till I know exactly what I am doing and right now, I don't.
I was under the impression that if you make Recovery disks when you get the
new computer by copying the image onto CD's or DVD's as in the instructions
that if you have a problem, you can use the Recovery program CDR's/DVD's to
fix the problem. I thought it also could mean that you could install the
Recovery discs as if they were a backup of your whole system. If you don't
make Recovery disks, you would have to find the hidden OS image on your hard
drive and that sounds tricky. Since I first heard about Recovery disks a
couple of years ago, more and more manufacturers do not give you original OS
CD's - just tell you to make CDR's from the hidden partition on the computer
hard drive (in the cases where you buy a ready made computer or laptop). I
guess it saves the manufactuers money.

Good luck.

Thanks but I won't be reckless yet.

Mary

 

[UN]

Acronis True Image will do the job.

Acronis is a suberb program, but it seems that it may have caused an
exception error in WinXP 'rundll32.exe shell32.dll, Control_RunDLL
hotplug.dd', which comes forth when the 'safely remove hardware' is clicked
and thus invalidates it. I have not, however, uninstalled the Acronis, but
have not used the named icon at all.
--UN

 

[Mary]

Mary:
First of all...

If your exclusive interest is in a "free backup program" as you indicated in
your original post, then stop reading right now and look no further re the
following comments I'm about to make. I really don't know of any free
comprehensive and truly useful (easy-to-understand, reasonably quick in
operation, & consistently reliable) backup programs that I would recommend
to you or anyone.

Anna, thanks a lot for your comments/suggestions. I am always open to
comments/suggestions and learning new things about computers/programs. You
seem to know a lot about the subject under discussion. It will take me time
to digest your informatioin, so I will save your message and study it later.

Mary

 

[John Doe]

<shakes head>

What part of that don't you understand.

 

[John Doe]

For future reference, Matt, would be doing this group a favor if you
would not cross post to the "windows-xp" groups. Thanks.

 

[chrisv]

What part of that don't you understand.

It appears that someone other than relic doesn't seem to understand.

"Restore" ...you can even do it without a copy of Windows XP if his hard
drive fails.

 

[chrisv]

For future reference, Matt, would be doing this group a favor if you
would not cross post to the "windows-xp" groups. Thanks.

Get you. Are you the new net-nazi?

 

[chrisv]

You're from alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, aren't you.

Is everyone there that stupid?

 

[Matt]

Get you. Are you the new net-nazi?

not new

 

[chrisv]

not new

;-)

 

[Matt]

Excuse my ignorance, but in what way is this recovery partition
hidden?

As much as I can figure, part of the recovery scheme may involve the HPA
you mention, but the main XP files are stored in a partition that is
visible to XP in the sense that it can be removed using fdisk or
diskpart or the XP GUI disk partitioner. But that partition is hidden
in the sense that it cannot be assigned a drive letter, so the files
can't be accessed normally through XP. I find that by booting Linux
from a live CD, that hidden partition can be mounted easily and copied.
Also the Linux fdisk is able to change the partition type so that it
can then be read by XP also.


< Can it be seen in the partition table of absolute sector 0, in

which case the user would be limited to three more partition entries.
Or does this hidden "partition" exist in the Host Protected Area, ie
an area of the disc that cannot be seen by the BIOS or OS? Can Acronis
True Image or Partition Magic see this area of the disc?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_Protected_Area

"Computer manufacturers may use the area to contain a preloaded OS for
install and recovery purposes (instead of providing DVD or CD media).

Dell notebooks hide Dell Media Direct utility in HPA. IBM and LG
notebooks hide system restore software in HPA."

- Franc Zabkar

Thanks for that link.

 

[chrisv]

As much as I can figure, part of the recovery scheme may involve the
HPA you mention, but the main XP files are stored in a partition that
is visible to XP in the sense that it can be removed using fdisk or
diskpart or the XP GUI disk partitioner. But that partition is hidden
in the sense that it cannot be assigned a drive letter, so the files
can't be accessed normally through XP. I find that by booting Linux
from a live CD, that hidden partition can be mounted easily and
copied. Also the Linux fdisk is able to change the partition type so
that it can then be read by XP also.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/100108

HPFS can't be seen by XP or Vista, thus, "Hidden"

 

[Matt]

It seems that IBM used several different methods for hiding the
service/recovery software. Yours may be the following type:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Rescue_and_Recovery

"Rescue and Recovery version 3.0 consists of a bootable partition
containing various system recovery tools, including full recovery of
the preinstalled Windows XP partition. It can be activated by pressing
the ThinkPad, Access IBM or ThinkVantage Button during system boot. It
contains a FAT filesystem (sometimes labeled "IBM_SERVICE",
"SERVICEV001", etc.), and has partition type 0x12 ("Compaq
diagnostics" in fdisk).

As opposed to a Hidden Protected Area, recovery partitions are
ordinary partitions, accessible through the partition table. As they
are ordinary partitions they are accessible by ordinary partitioning
tools."

Other IBM products used the HPA:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Hidden_Protected_Area

You should be able to determine whether your hard disc has been
truncated by a HPA by querying the total number of LBA sectors as
reported by the BIOS or by some utility such as Everest Home Edition.
Then consult the HD manufacturer's specs and compare the two numbers.
Any difference will reflect the size of the HPA.

This URL describes how to create recovery CDs from the preinstalled
O/S:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Ordering_Recovery_CDs

==================================================================
In some ThinkPads IBM supplies a utility to create the recovery CDs.
You'll find a utility called "Create Recovery Discs" in the "ACCESS
IBM" folder of the Start Menu. To create the Recovery discs, you'll
need a CD/DVD writer and blank media. The Product Recovery discs set
consist of one Rescue and Recovery disc (size of 1 CD-R) and one or
more Product recovery discs (size of 1 DVD-R).

Others might want to read the appendix "Creating an image of the hard
drive" in this document from IBM for instructions.

ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/access_ibm_en/hpa_aibm.pdf

It is also useful when replacing the hard disk. If your Thinkpad does
not have a floppy drive, you could try to create a FAT partition on
the harddisk and copy the files "fwbackup.exe" and "fwrestor.exe"
there.
==================================================================

- Franc Zabkar

Thanks for the informative links.

I found the following link which applies to my IBM model number:

ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/thinkvantage_en/z501_setup_rnr41_314c.txt

It has the following passage which I don't understand:

Accessing the Rescue and Recovery workspace
===========================================
In the event of a complete hard disk failure, you can open the Rescue
and Recovery workspace by booting from rescue media (either a Rescue
and Recovery CD or a USB hard disk configured as a Rescue and Recovery
device). You can create rescue media from the Windows XP or Windows 2000
Start menu.

I don't understand the last sentence. I don't see on the Start menu how
to "create rescue media", Typing that phrase into the XP Help and
Support Center doesn't seem to turn up anything useful. Since my
question applies to "complete hard disk failure", it seems it would be
solved if I can "create rescue media". So how do I do that?

 

[Richard Brandstetter]

My hard drive died in my R40 laptop . I called IBM sent about $50 for the 5
CD (for the R40)with XP Pro and all Drivers and IBM Programs to make my R40
like new then I added all my programs Like Office and Photoshop
I had the IBM CDs in my hands in 3 Days the hard drive in 4 days
And I did not by the new hard drive from IBM they were $300 t0 $700 . I
order NEW 60gig drive from Tigerdirect for $65 .
You can add or not add the Hidden Partition if you like. I Did add it and
still have the CD if the Hard drive dies .
in lest then 2 hour had new hard drive in and all Programs up and running.
Richard Brandstetter
(e-mail address removed)
www.weddings-nj.com