Color Neutrality of black/white prints?

[Colin D]

I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from
my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from
scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no
suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results,
while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the
printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers
that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable.

Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I consider
the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close
to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from
a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

 

[CWatters]

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close
to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from
a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

In the end the customer is always right.

Perhaps he wouldn't notice the loss of picture quality if you told the
printer to only use black? or is this one of those printers that never
really stops using colour ink no matter how you configure it?

 

[C J Southern]

You're in NZ aren't you? (me too)

Anything I can print for you on my Epson 7800 (legendary for B & W), and
send to you?

Cheers,

Colin

 

[John Rampling]

CMY is not really appropriate for professional work. Bite the bullet and get
a CMYK or even six-ink printer.

John

 

[Scott Glasgow]

CMY is not really appropriate for professional work. Bite the bullet
and get a CMYK or even six-ink printer.

John

OK, I'm confused. You say that the printer is "... printing in three
colors," but when I look up the specs on that model it says that it's an
eight-color printer. So, which is it? Does the printer have a true black
cartridge? If so, look in your printer setup dialog (it may be on an
advanced tab or somewhere else not obvious) for the option to use only
black. I have this on my Epson C84 (which is good, since I use it only for
BW printing), and I would think that it would be available on your higher
end printer ("Canon's No.1 photo printer in digital photo printing" - from
their Australian site Web page for the i9950). Look in your printed(??) or
online documentation for information on monochrome or greyscale printing.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[Colin D]

You're in NZ aren't you? (me too)

Anything I can print for you on my Epson 7800 (legendary for B & W), and
send to you?

Cheers,

Colin

Thanks for that offer, CJ, but the job, if it goes ahead, will involve
some hundreds of prints at 6x4, from a mixed bag of 127, 120, 116, and
other odd-ball size original in varying degrees of decay, all resized to
6x4 at 300 dpi. If the test runs dont' satisfy this guy, I won't be
doing the rest of the scans.

Colin D.

 

[C J Southern]

Thanks for that offer, CJ, but the job, if it goes ahead, will involve
some hundreds of prints at 6x4, from a mixed bag of 127, 120, 116, and
other odd-ball size original in varying degrees of decay, all resized to
6x4 at 300 dpi. If the test runs dont' satisfy this guy, I won't be
doing the rest of the scans.

No worries.

Just a word of caution if I may - I've been doing a few 6 * 4 and 7.5 * 5
prints recently, but we've come to realise that they just don't stand up to
any degree of handling. We've even tried spraying them - but they're still
getting scratched very easily (even just the movement of one on top of the
other).

We've reached the conclusion that frame-mounded prints are ok - small &
sprayed oned may be OK in an album that's seperated by rice paper - but
hand-held stuff seems to be about 100 times more delicate than conventional
"lab" stuff.

And to make matters worse, this is on a printer that's renowned for
producing hardy prints.

 

[Colin D]

OK, I'm confused. You say that the printer is "... printing in three
colors," but when I look up the specs on that model it says that it's an
eight-color printer. So, which is it? Does the printer have a true black
cartridge? If so, look in your printer setup dialog (it may be on an
advanced tab or somewhere else not obvious) for the option to use only
black. I have this on my Epson C84 (which is good, since I use it only for
BW printing), and I would think that it would be available on your higher
end printer ("Canon's No.1 photo printer in digital photo printing" - from
their Australian site Web page for the i9950). Look in your printed(??) or
online documentation for information on monochrome or greyscale printing.

Cheers,
Scott

You're quite right, it's an 8-color printer, and I guess I really meant
5 colors used for b/w output, 2 magentas and cyans plus a yellow.
There's only one black cartridge, so the printer has to use color to
generate the lighter tones smoothly, I guess.

This client even pointed out that the paper itself in the whites was too
white. He apparently wanted a creamy paper to more or leess match the
silver prints I was copying. I don't think this job is going to fly.

Colin D.

 

[CWatters]

This client even pointed out that the paper itself in the whites was too
white. He apparently wanted a creamy paper to more or leess match the
silver prints I was copying. I don't think this job is going to fly.

Perhaps you could use a program like Irfanview to batch tint them a bit
yellow?

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Does the Canon i9950 really print in CMY? I suspect otherwise.

Six color (CcMmYK) printers are no more likely, and maybe less so, to
produce neutral results across the entire density range than a CMYK or
even a CMY can. The drivers in a CcMmYK printer need to be even more
complex to get an image without some color casting.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

A bigger problem may be the fugitive nature of Canon inks.

I don't know what he is paying for the prints and what he plans to do
with them in terms of display or storage, but if he is that concerned
with color cast, the problem is that not only will these images fade,
but they will more than likely not fade evenly and therefore the cast
may get worse over time.

If the job can justify it, you might want to consider buying something
like a C88 or even an Epson Picturemate (4 x 6" maximum size output)
which both use Durabrite inks which are rated for about 100 years in
under glass display.

Although they probably will not produce quite the same graduated tonal
range, I believe both can be set to black only printing which will give
dead neutral results, and very high permanence (the black ink is
probably the most stable of all). It will also cost you less per image
to print.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

May I ask which printer, which inks, which paper?

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Couple of things:

1) you probably don't have the correct equipment for this client, I'd
consider making him someone elses headache ;-)

2) You could "print" the creme color. He obviously doesn't really want
neutral images, he wants reproductions of an old looking B&W print,
which usually will not be neutral. Cream paper is not neutral, it's
cream. The only way to accomplish that is to either scan and keep the
cream color in the whites and have them print using the colored inks, or
switch to a black only printing and use a cream biased paper.

I bet the blacks aren't neutral black either. It is probably a warm
toned B&W paper.

Art

 

[Infinitech]

I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from
my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from
scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no
suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the
results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing
in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client
who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is
unacceptable.

Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I
consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how
close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this
objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

I have a canon too (s900) ans I've never been able to produce nice BW prints
while color prints are pretty nice
but I've read recently a book from Harald Johnson, (
which I recommend it's called "Digital printing" I think, in english)
and inside there was a solution for replacing original cardridges
by special high end carbon-based cardridges from a company
specialized in fine arts supplies,
but what the **** ****** I can't remember their name.

Maybe someone has tried them, I'd like to read about it too..

 

[Infinitech]

but what the **** ****** I can't remember their name.Damned, LYSON!!!
http://www.lyson.com/
Does anyone uses this?

 

[C J Southern]

May I ask which printer, which inks, which paper?

Epson 7800 - K3 Inks - Kodak Rapid dry 260gsm Gloss & 190gsm Satin.

Although to be fair, I now understand that this is an issue with any kind of
inkjet printing (the Epson ink is supposed to be especially resiliant).

At the end of the day, it's not a problem with the ink coming off - it's a
problem with the ink that's already on the paper getting marked, which when
you think about it, is pretty "exposed" to damage.

Why do you ask?

Colin

 

[Colin D]

Damned, LYSON!!!
http://www.lyson.com/
Does anyone uses this?

Yep, Lyson (English), and others, whose name *I* can't remember now!
It's catching!

You really need a separate printer to do this properly, as the various
shades of gray occupy the color cartridge slots in the printer, and
Lyson at least supply software that separates the b/w tones and drives
the appropriate color channel in the printer. I did try this long ago
with an Epson 740 printer, but could never get it to work properly, and
ran out of the expensive ink, so abandoned it.

I should say that I think the output of the i9950 gives excellent b/w
prints, and I have exhibited several. I don't know if cream or warm
paper is available for inkjets, but I'm going to find out. Could be
good for portraits etc.

Colin D.

 

[Paul Furman]

Yep, Lyson (English), and others, whose name *I* can't remember now!
It's catching!

You really need a separate printer to do this properly, as the various
shades of gray occupy the color cartridge slots in the printer, and
Lyson at least supply software that separates the b/w tones and drives
the appropriate color channel in the printer. I did try this long ago
with an Epson 740 printer, but could never get it to work properly, and
ran out of the expensive ink, so abandoned it.

I should say that I think the output of the i9950 gives excellent b/w
prints, and I have exhibited several. I don't know if cream or warm
paper is available for inkjets, but I'm going to find out. Could be
good for portraits etc.

Another trick to use photoshop to do a duotone or tri.. using a
yellowish highlight and a neutral or blueish shadow color to sort of
simulate the elusive look of silver prints.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Hi Colin,

I ask because the ink set and paper matter.

For instance, most of Kodak's consumer grade papers were using a
swellable polymer surfaced paper. This paper is not recommended for
pigment inks such as the K3 series. Those Kodak papers are designed for
dye inks. The swellable polymer surface are helpful in reducing the
fugitive nature of dye inks by making them less likely to fade by
locking the dye into the surface structure of the paper. Pigment inks
do not integrate well with swellable Polymer papers, and
swellable polymer papers also are never waterproof. They are vulnerable
to humidity, spills, fingerprints and other environmental
considerations. Basically, they do not dry properly with Ultrachrome
inks, which in themselves are very slow drying due ot the glycol levels.
Further the nature of swellable polymers is that even when dry they
are relatively soft.

However, it would appear the Kodak papers you are using use differing
technology, as they are rapid dry, so likely they are microporous.

In general, microporous inks are more appropriate for pigment inks.
These are "instant dry" types. They have a porous ceramic surface under
which is another clay (kaolin) surface which locks the ink into place
and reduces dot gain. These papers can literally be rinsed one truly
dry and the inks remain set. Even dye inks which are water soluble will
remain set. The surface is harder, and remains dry after printing, and
although dye inks may fade more quickly with it, pigment inks are not at
great risk to fading.

It is true that pigment inks tend to set closer to the surface, and
therefore can be more vulnerable to scuffing and such. Some people use
overcoats to help keep the ink more protected. Do you find that most
papers you have used have equal vulnerability to scuffs and scrapes?

I admit, I still like what silver photographs look like and how well
they tend to behave, especially with B&W images. But I suspect some
paper and ink combos hold up better than others.

 

[Scott Glasgow]

Hi Colin,

I ask because the ink set and paper matter.

For instance, most of Kodak's consumer grade papers were using a
swellable polymer surfaced paper. This paper is not recommended for
pigment inks such as the K3 series. Those Kodak papers are designed
for dye inks. The swellable polymer surface are helpful in reducing
the fugitive nature of dye inks by making them less likely to fade by
locking the dye into the surface structure of the paper. Pigment inks
do not integrate well with swellable Polymer papers, and
swellable polymer papers also are never waterproof. They are
vulnerable to humidity, spills, fingerprints and other environmental
considerations. Basically, they do not dry properly with Ultrachrome
inks, which in themselves are very slow drying due ot the glycol
levels. Further the nature of swellable polymers is that even when
dry they are relatively soft.

However, it would appear the Kodak papers you are using use differing
technology, as they are rapid dry, so likely they are microporous.

In general, microporous inks are more appropriate for pigment inks.
These are "instant dry" types. They have a porous ceramic surface
under which is another clay (kaolin) surface which locks the ink into
place and reduces dot gain. These papers can literally be rinsed one
truly dry and the inks remain set. Even dye inks which are water
soluble will remain set. The surface is harder, and remains dry
after printing, and although dye inks may fade more quickly with it,
pigment inks are not at great risk to fading.

It is true that pigment inks tend to set closer to the surface, and
therefore can be more vulnerable to scuffing and such. Some people
use overcoats to help keep the ink more protected. Do you find that
most papers you have used have equal vulnerability to scuffs and
scrapes?
I admit, I still like what silver photographs look like and how well
they tend to behave, especially with B&W images. But I suspect some
paper and ink combos hold up better than others.


Art
C J Southern wrote:

--
<<::SNIP::>>

Thanks for the information, Art. I wasn't aware of the nature of Kodak paper
and tried using some I had gotten on sale with Epson DuraBrite inks, with
terrible results. They came out looking like a craquelure effect had been
applied to the image, especially in the black and darker areas of the print.
After experimenting with plain 94 bright 24 lb. bond and finding that this
did not occur, I went out and got Epson's DuraBrite Glossy paper and got
great prints. Although I was happy to have solved the problem, I was curious
as to why two apparently similar "glossy" papers had such drastically
different responses to the ink. Now I know. Thanks again.

BTW, is there somewhere on the Web I can go to find information about inks
and proprietary papers such as you have included here, or is this a summary
of information that you have picked up here and there over time? I have
Googled "paper and ink characteristics," "inkjet paper characteristics," and
others, and have found some not too bad general information, but little
manufacturer-specific information such as given above other than sales
fluff.

Cheers,
Scott