Cat 3.9 seriously overheating Zalman cooled 9800pro

[Ben Pope]

And I believe ATI was maybe tempted to use this new 'technology' with
older Radeons too. Another quite real possibility is a buggy driver
which activates the overclocking on 9800pro thinking it's 9x00xt.

And upon what do you place your beliefs?

There is a test from somebody (and I'm fairly sure its ATI, but confirmed by
one or more independant test sites) that says that the new drivers do not
change GPU core temperature significantly.

The thread was done in here a while back, along with all the BS claims that
the new drivers kill monitors. I could search for it, but your attitude
leads me to not be bothered. If you ask a question and get advice, but then
refute it, thats up to you, but I can assure you, I am correct.

Ben

 

[Ben Pope]

You'll also notice that Zalman strongly recommends using their
optional fan on the newer HP80C cooler when used with the 9800 series
of cards. Personally I found the HP80A too hot on my 9700 - never
mind the 9800 - and added a silent fan to move some air over it.
Helped cool it quite a bit.

Indeed... I have seen that, but even with my case that has little airflow, I
have had no stability problems using the ZM80A on my 9800 Pro from Crucial.
Yes it gets hot, very hot, but that hasn't caused me any problems.

Ben

 

[Skid]

Do you?

Thought not...

Next!

OK, I see you have nothing to back your claims. So why have you
bothered to reply? You added NOTHING to this thread. Compared to you I
have a first hand experience.[/QUOTE]

If you won't take his word for it, or mine, would you believe ATI?

Q4: What ATI products support ATI OVERDRIVET?

A4: Currently ATI OVERDRIVET is only supported on the RADEONT 9800 XT
and RADEONT 9600 XT (upon availability).

http://www.ati.com/products/catalyst/overdrive.html

Note the word "only." There may indeed be a logical reason why Cat 3.9
didn't work for you, but overclocking isn't it.

 

[gzx]

You'll also notice that Zalman strongly recommends using their optional fan
on the newer HP80C cooler when used with the 9800 series of cards.
Personally I found the HP80A too hot on my 9700 - never mind the 9800 - and
added a silent fan to move some air over it. Helped cool it quite a bit.

- Daniel

Yes, I am aware of that. But the whole point of using Zalman was to
achieve a completely silent cooling. Also note that Sapphire sells the
Ultimate edition of 9800pro which uses Zalman cooler without any
additional fan. I have been running my 9800pro with Zalman for about
six months without any problems until I installed Cat 3.9.

 

[gzx]

And upon what do you place your beliefs?

Believe me, there are many unfixed bugs in the drivers.

There is a test from somebody (and I'm fairly sure its ATI, but confirmed by
one or more independant test sites) that says that the new drivers do not
change GPU core temperature significantly.

Not significantly might be valid for an active cooling solution but
it's a completely different matter with a passive one. The temp raise
curve is much steeper for passive coolers.

The thread was done in here a while back, along with all the BS claims that
the new drivers kill monitors. I could search for it, but your attitude
leads me to not be bothered. If you ask a question and get advice, but then
refute it, thats up to you, but I can assure you, I am correct.

Ben

I don't remember you advising me anything. Telling me you are correct
is not going to persuade me you actually are correct.

 

[gzx]

There may indeed be a logical reason why Cat 3.9 didn't work for you,
but overclocking isn't it.

OK, so you rule out the possibility of a bug in the drivers?

For me it's pretty simple:

- 3.8 introduced overclocking to Radeons XT
- 3.9 overheats my Radeon even during low-stress GUI work
- 3.7 does not overheat my Radeon even during the most demanding games

What is the main difference between 3.7 and 3.9? Built-in overclocking.
Have I experienced overclocking-like problems with 3.9? YES, I have.

 

[Ben Pope]

Believe me, there are many unfixed bugs in the drivers.

That doesn't really add weight to your belief that the overclocking happens
on your 9800 Pro, especially when the whole overclocking process is
regulated by temperature, yet your 9800 Pro does not have a temperature
sensor.

Not significantly might be valid for an active cooling solution but
it's a completely different matter with a passive one. The temp raise
curve is much steeper for passive coolers.

Not significantly, as in not a measurable increase that is statistically
significant to demonstrate a change in temperature.

I don't remember you advising me anything. Telling me you are correct
is not going to persuade me you actually are correct.

Advice, facts, whatever.

That you do not believe me does not make me wrong.

Ben

 

[Ben Pope]

OK, so you rule out the possibility of a bug in the drivers?

For me it's pretty simple:

- 3.8 introduced overclocking to Radeons XT

So this is the change, this is where you would expect to see the problem,
no?

- 3.9 overheats my Radeon even during low-stress GUI work

Which would indicate a problem that is not related to clock... "low-stress"
on the GPU -> low heat production, even at slightly higher clock rates.
You'd certainly get more heat production under high load than with low load
and maybe 20% more clock speed or whatever it is you believe the clock rate
has increased by.

- 3.7 does not overheat my Radeon even during the most demanding games

Right. So the additional clock speed would have to result in significant
heat production for your argument to be correct.

What is the main difference between 3.7 and 3.9? Built-in
overclocking.
Have I experienced overclocking-like problems with 3.9? YES, I have.

But that you experience locking up is not really looking like it is
overclocking related, is it?

Ben

 

[gzx]

BINGO!

"which introduced overclocking to XT Radeons"

You have a 9800 Pro.

Ben

Oh, many thanks for telling me what card I have.

 

[Ben Pope]

Oh, many thanks for telling me what card I have.

You seemed to have missed that point. The overclocking is NOT for your
card, and is NOT utilised for your card.

Ben

 

[gzx]

So this is the change, this is where you would expect to see the problem,
no?

I have skipped 3.8.

Which would indicate a problem that is not related to clock... "low-stress"
on the GPU -> low heat production, even at slightly higher clock rates.
You'd certainly get more heat production under high load than with low load
and maybe 20% more clock speed or whatever it is you believe the clock rate
has increased by.

Locking under no stress is one of the key indicators of bad
overclocking/overheating.

Right. So the additional clock speed would have to result in significant
heat production for your argument to be correct.

Sorry, I don't understand your point.

But that you experience locking up is not really looking like it is
overclocking related, is it?

It sure is. As I've stated before the locked machine refused to boot
(POST) for several minutes which clearly indicates an overheated
component.

 

[gzx]

That doesn't really add weight to your belief that the overclocking happens
on your 9800 Pro, especially when the whole overclocking process is
regulated by temperature, yet your 9800 Pro does not have a temperature
sensor.

It does not? Let me get something straight. I don't blindly believe
anything here. I have experienced problems which I concluded result
from overclocked R9800pro. My conclusion is also supported by the
newly introduced XT overdrive feature built into the drivers.

Not significantly, as in not a measurable increase that is statistically
significant to demonstrate a change in temperature.

My own experience tells me it really is significant. I have just found
a quote from ATI on Cataclyst 3.8. They called it "most significant
software update in the company's history". Pretty strong words if you
ask me. Certainly rings a bell.

Found another one:

"We have spent a great deal of time analyzing the temperatures due to
the CATALYST 3.8 drivers. We do not under any circumstance see
anything near a 10 degree Celsius increase in temperature (but we
don't overclock our test cards either). WE DO SEE A SLIGHT INCREASE IN
TEMPERATURE in certain cases (3Dmark2003 Nature Scene for example).
However any temperature increase is well within our safety range.
Investigation continues and we are trying to determine why this change
in temperature exits. At this point we are reproducing individual
driver packages with code being checked in and measuring the
temperature. However nothing shows the alleged increase in
temperature. One independent website even tried to reproduce this
issue, and found no measurable difference in temperature between
CATALYST 3.7 and 3.8."

Emphasis added. This 'slight' increase may be not so slight with
passive cooling setups. What's even worse that ATI needs to
investigate why the temperature increased at all.

 

[Dirty Harry]

You seemed to have missed that point. The overclocking is NOT for your
card, and is NOT utilised for your card.

Ben

Yea no doubt, man this guy has a thick skull! I'll repeat what was said
about 10 times already, "Your video card is not being overclocked by the cat
3.9 drivers!"

 

[h2so4]

Yea no doubt, man this guy has a thick skull! I'll repeat what was said
about 10 times already, "Your video card is not being overclocked by the cat
3.9 drivers!"

Another disappointment. Mine don't suck either!

 

[Ben Pope]

It does not? Let me get something straight. I don't blindly believe
anything here. I have experienced problems which I concluded result
from overclocked R9800pro. My conclusion is also supported by the
newly introduced XT overdrive feature built into the drivers.

I'll say for the last time: "The overdrive feature is for the XT, you have a
Pro"

My own experience tells me it really is significant. I have just found
a quote from ATI on Cataclyst 3.8. They called it "most significant
software update in the company's history". Pretty strong words if you
ask me. Certainly rings a bell.

Well I'm talking about temperature increase and whether or not there is one.
There is not. You can't just take any old quote from ATI with the word
"significant" in it and then say that ATI say it (temperature raise) is
significant, 'cos you're talking about something different.

Found another one:

"We have spent a great deal of time analyzing the temperatures due to
the CATALYST 3.8 drivers. We do not under any circumstance see
anything near a 10 degree Celsius increase in temperature (but we
don't overclock our test cards either). WE DO SEE A SLIGHT INCREASE IN
TEMPERATURE in certain cases (3Dmark2003 Nature Scene for example).
However any temperature increase is well within our safety range.
Investigation continues and we are trying to determine why this change
in temperature exits. At this point we are reproducing individual
driver packages with code being checked in and measuring the
temperature. However nothing shows the alleged increase in
temperature. One independent website even tried to reproduce this
issue, and found no measurable difference in temperature between
CATALYST 3.7 and 3.8."

Emphasis added. This 'slight' increase may be not so slight with
passive cooling setups. What's even worse that ATI needs to
investigate why the temperature increased at all.

Right... it certainly doesn't suggest that the overclocking feature for XTs
is being used on your 9800 Pro, does it?

Ben

 

[gzx]

Yea no doubt, man this guy has a thick skull! I'll repeat what was said
about 10 times already, "Your video card is not being overclocked by the cat
3.9 drivers!"

On paper, yes. I have no problems accepting that fact. But my own
experience tells me a different story. Really that hard to grasp? Who
has the thick skull here? Even ATI acknowledged a temp increase for
non-XT Radeons using Cat 3.8. They DO NOT know where that increase
comes from. Other independent people reported a 10 degC increase but
they were no doubt ridiculed with "read the release notes" type of
arguments.

 

[gzx]

I'll say for the last time: "The overdrive feature is for the XT, you have a
Pro"

I'll also say this for the last time: I know I have R9800PRO and I
know CAT 3.8 introduced overclocking for XT Radeons only.

Do you know what this thread is all about? My Radeon showed symptoms
of overheating after I installed Cat 3.9. Overdrive is a new feature
and, as such, is VERY LIKELY to be prone to yet undiscovered bugs.
Such bug could cause activation of overclocking in certain cases even
for non-XT cards.

Well I'm talking about temperature increase and whether or not there is one.
There is not. You can't just take any old quote from ATI with the word
"significant" in it and then say that ATI say it (temperature raise) is
significant, 'cos you're talking about something different.

I've said nothing like that.

"most significant software update in the company's history"

Right... it certainly doesn't suggest that the overclocking feature for XTs
is being used on your 9800 Pro, does it?

Decide for yourself:

"Investigation continues and we are trying to determine why this
change in temperature exits."

 

[Ben Pope]

I'll also say this for the last time: I know I have R9800PRO and I
know CAT 3.8 introduced overclocking for XT Radeons only.
Right.

Do you know what this thread is all about? My Radeon showed symptoms
of overheating after I installed Cat 3.9. Overdrive is a new feature
and, as such, is VERY LIKELY to be prone to yet undiscovered bugs.
Yep.

Such bug could cause activation of overclocking in certain cases even
for non-XT cards.

Unlikely. As a software engineer I can assure you that it is extremely
unlikely that your 9800Pro is being overclocked by the overdrive feature.
Before considering whether to enable overdrive you will check the device, if
it isn't an XT you will not enable the code that may or may not be buggy.
Yes, the code that detects your card could be buggy, but thats pretty
unlikely.

Decide for yourself:

"Investigation continues and we are trying to determine why this
change in temperature exits."

Still don't think it's likely to be overdrive.

In answer to your question on whether I know what this thread is about...
this branch of it is about whether overdrive is enabled on your card. You
started the thread with heat related problems which you beleive is related
to overdrive. I am not refuting that your problems may be heat related,
merely that they are overdrive related. Keeping up?

Lets take a step back and look at the facts:
1) You have modified the cooling solution on your card
2) You are experiencing heat related problems with the Cat 3.9s but not the
Cat 3.7s
3) I have modified my Crucial 9800 Pro with the same ZM80A-HP cooler as you
and have never had heat related problems (except maybe at greater than
450/360 but I think thats more likely voltage than heat)

Care to draw any conlusions based on those facts?

I agree that more than one person has suggested that their card produces
more heat under later Cat drivers... maybe even ATI suggested it, but ATI
says it's within their margin of safety and I am experiencing no problems.

I would suggest that the installation of your cooler is not ideal, or the
airflow in your case is low, neither of which can be attributed to the
overdrive feature of the newer Cat drivers, especially as it is only enabled
for the XT, which you do not have.

Ben

 

[Skid]

Yea no doubt, man this guy has a thick skull! I'll repeat what was said
about 10 times already, "Your video card is not being overclocked by the cat
3.9 drivers!"

On paper, yes. I have no problems accepting that fact. But my own
experience tells me a different story. Really that hard to grasp? Who
has the thick skull here? Even ATI acknowledged a temp increase for
non-XT Radeons using Cat 3.8. They DO NOT know where that increase
comes from. Other independent people reported a 10 degC increase but
they were no doubt ridiculed with "read the release notes" type of
arguments.[/QUOTE]

At least "read the release notes" IS an argument. ATI says your card is not
being overclocked by the Cat 3.9 drivers. Their statements are backed up by
independent tests at other websites and the experiences of others in this
newsgroup.

You keep saying you think your card must be overheating and you think that's
because it must be overclocked, even though you have absolutely nothing to
back it up.

That is NOT an argument. Which is why nobody in this thread is convinced by
it.

Why not get an overclocking utility that reads the core and memory speeds of
your card. Use it simply to detect the core and memory speeds at default
using 3.7. Then do the same with 3.9.

If they're different, you might have a case. I'm betting they're not, as no
one else has seen any such result.

With no accurate way of measuring the temps on your card, you have no way of
knowing whether it's actually running hotter. As someone else suggested, the
Cat 3.9 set could stress the gpu a little more even if it was not
overclocked.

Properly installed in a well-ventilated case, your Zalman should perform
about the same as the stock cooler. If for any reason it's operating near
its limits, even a couple of degrees extra could make it unstable.

That's not to mention possible problems other than the video card -- a
flakey power supply, overstressed ram, a bios or software configuration
problem, etc., etc. You seem to be determined to ignore any explanation
other than the most unlikely one.

In any event, you seem to be the only one here having this problem, and for
you, dropping back to Cat 3.7 seems to have solved it, at least for now.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Ed]

If you have "completely silent cooling" then the Zalman will overheat
every time. It needs some forced air. If you have "completely
silent cooling" that would imply that you are trying to run your
machine fanless.


Perhaps the new drivers work the GPU a little harder? Regardless of
what Sapphire does you need a certain minimum level of airflow past the
heat sink to maintain adequate cooling. Sounds like your machine is
marginal.


--

I beleive the guy that the drivers are heating up his card. I've got a 9700
pro and Cat 3.6 made my Zalman cooled card too hot to touch,even when it was
idle.Went back to 3.5 and all was well. Went up to 3.7 and there was no
problems. Went to 3.9 and open gl games wouldn't start.Back to 3.7