Can Only Boot with Boot CD in Drive

[Paige Miller]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 23:53:08 GMT, Paige Miller

On 10/5/2006 7:16 PM, John John wrote:

Paige Miller wrote:

On 10/5/2006 8:41 AM, John John wrote:

Paige Miller wrote:

On 10/4/2006 11:28 PM, Justin Case wrote:

I don't think you realize all that you have done. I believe
you now have TWO installations of Windows, one on the 80G, and
one on the 160G. The original apparently is corrupt. The boot
files remained there when you reinstalled to the wrong (the
80G) drive. Therefore the 160G boots.
[Rightclick My Computer. Choose Manage. Under Storage in the
left pane, click Disk management. Which drive says "System",
which says "Active" ("Boot"), etc. in the right pane? (This is
the Disk SnapIn Tool, and may cause you to reinstall
everything, if used to make changes without proper Knowledge.)



Currently, the D: drive (the 80gig drive that used to be my C:
drive) is listed as Boot, while the C: drive (the 160gig drive
that used to be my D: drive) is listed as system.

As of Now, ANY programs installed with the first Windows
install are pointing to the wrong drive, because when you
installed the 2nd Windows, THAT became the C: drive according
to Windows. So ANY/ALL programs not reinstalled are skewed, and
any leftover parts are, too.
Best bet: total reinstall of entire system.(if it was me)
To make Photoshop work (possibly), as is: replicate the path
to the the library with empty folders on the D: drive, and copy
the final library folder at the end of the path.
That is: If program's path says D:\Program
Files\Adobe\Photoshop\Library, open D:\Program Files and just
make a New>folder named Adobe, make a folder inside it named
Photoshop, then copy and paste the library folder inside of
that. May work; don't know what all else you've reinstalled, or
haven't.
I'd start over.



To start over, do I need to erase these system files from one of
my drives? Specifically, do I need to get rid of (or move to the
other drive) NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM, and BOOT.INI?

When I insert the Recovery disk to re-install windows, it always
refers to my drives backwards ... in other words, the original
C: drive (80gig) was always referred to by this program as my D:
drive. I'm sure this is part of the confusion that I am having.

You are definitely correct about Photoshop Album, but I want my
data files on a different drive from my Windows installation,
just in case I ever have to do a re-install.


Place the drive on which you want to install Windows at the
Master position on the Primary IDE controller. Keep the other
drive(s) OUT of the machine until you have Windows installed
properly and up and running, these other drives can be brought
online after you install Windows. That will avoid mix ups and
errors like the one you experienced. Just be sure to place the
Windows drive at the position as I said earlier. Format the
drive and reinstall Windows properly. Once you are satisfied
that Windows is properly installed and running properly shut down
the computer and install your other drive(s).

After installing the other drive and BEFORE you reboot Windows
start the computer with a BootItNG diskette.
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html This is a fully
functional 30 day trial version. Following the instruction from
the site above create a boot diskette. DO NOT INSTALL BootItNG!
It will work from a diskette boot, like a Windows 9x DOS boot
diskette, just hit Escape or click cancel and it will tell you
that it's entering "Maintenance Mode" (or something like that).
Once there remove the "Active" flag from any partitions on the
second hard drive. BE CAREFUL! Don't mix up your drives and
don't remove the active flag on the Windows System Partition!
Once done remove the BootItNG diskette and reboot the computer to
your Windows Installation.

If the computer doesn't boot properly, you stuck the drives in
the wrong place or the Master/Slave jumpers are wrong. Just make
sure that the Windows installation is on partition 1 on HDD0, and
that this is the drive set to boot in the BIOS.

John

John,

Thank you, this is very helpful. I might still decide to
re-install Windows again to get things running properly, or I
might not. It is a lot of work.

However, I don't know my way around the inside of the computer
well. When you say "Place the drive on which you want to install
Windows at the Master position on the Primary IDE controller", I'm
not really sure I know how to do that. The computer arrived new
with the C: drive on the third IDE controller, and my D: drive as
the master (and only) drive on the primary IDE controller. I have
no idea why they did that, and right now I have no idea how to
move things around as you instructed so that the drive I want to
be my C: drive as the master on the primary IDE controller. Can
you help?

There is only 2 IDE controllers on motherboards. Unless you have
an IDE controller card I don't see where this third IDE controller
comes from. Maybe you have SATA instead of EIDE drives? Does the
drive and data cable look like these with wide fat connectors:
http://www.buildeasypc.com/hw/howto/insthdd.htm Or do the cables
look like this (SATA): http://www.satagear.com/SATA_Cables.html ?

John

John,

When I boot the computer, and go into the BIOS setup, it tells me
that the 80gig HD that has my Windows installation is the "Third IDE
Master". That's not my interpretation ... that's the exact wording
in the BIOS setup. The 160 gig HD is listed as the First IDE Master.


Most likely the Third IDE Master 80 GB drive is SATA. If there is no
Third IDE Slave, then it's definitely SATA. You won't be able to make
it First IDE.

As far as what the cables look like, I won't have time to open the
case and look tonight. That's a job for when I have more time (maybe
tomorrow).

Thanks for your help, I really would like to understand what is
going on and how to fix it, but I'm not going to try re-installing
Windows again until I'm sure I understand this, otherwise I will
most likely spend hours only to wind up right back where I am now.


If you want the 80 GB drive to be C: and the Windows system and boot
drive, do the following:

1. Move the 80 GB drive to the top of the list in BIOS setup Hard Disk
Boot Priority setting.

No, no, no. The 80GB was at the top of the list from the day the
computer arrived. When I ran the Windows Recovery/Install CD last
weekend, it decided that the 80GB drive, which was at the top of the
list in the BIOS setup Hard Disk Boot Priority, was actually the D:
drive, and then I wnet ahead and clean installed WIndows anyway and
now the computer thinks the 80GB drive is the D: drive.

Forget the drive letters, Paige. These letters can be misleading and
they mean absolutely nothing to the computer. Drives and partitions
have numbers, not letters, the letters are arbitrarily assigned by the
operating system at the time of installation and can be different from
one operating system to another on the same computer. You could have a
dual boot on your computer and the drive letter assignment could be
completely different when you boot one or the other.

Do you want to install Windows XP on the 80 gig drive? If yes remove
the power to the 160 gig drive and look in the BIOS. What do you see?
Where is the 80 gig drive? On the first controller? And how is the
boot order set?

John

Ps. The drives can be disabled in the BIOS but if you are confusing the
drives, removing the power to the drive is a foolproof way of seeing the
right drive and its position in the BIOS.

I finally got around to opening the case and removing the power from
the 160 gig drive.

Here's what the BIOS told me. The only drive in the boot order was
listed as:

CH 2. M HSD72..... (the 80GB drive)

The order of drives on the controllers is:

IDE Primary Master: None (160 GB drive would be here if it had power)
IDE Primary Slave: None
IDE Secondary Master: DVD-ROM
IDE Secondary Slave: DVD-RW
IDE Third Master: HSD78... (this is my 80 GB drive which has the
Windows installation as appears as the D: drive).

So how do I fix this so that Windows is installed on the 80GB drive
AND this is the C: drive?

Another concern I have is that somehow the boot.ini and related files
are now on my 160GB drive and apparently not on the 80GB drive, even
though the 80GB drive has the Windows installation. SHould I ever want
to replace my 160GB drive with a larger drive, then unless I can write
the boot.ini and related files to the larger drive, I have a system
that won't boot. So how do I fix this?


--
Paige Miller
(e-mail address removed)

It's nothing until I call it -- Bill Klem, NL Umpire
If you get the choice to sit it out or dance,
I hope you dance -- Lee Ann Womack

 

[John John]

On 10/6/2006 2:53 AM, Andy wrote:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 23:53:08 GMT, Paige Miller

On 10/5/2006 7:16 PM, John John wrote:

Paige Miller wrote:

On 10/5/2006 8:41 AM, John John wrote:

Paige Miller wrote:

On 10/4/2006 11:28 PM, Justin Case wrote:

I don't think you realize all that you have done. I believe
you now have TWO installations of Windows, one on the 80G, and
one on the 160G. The original apparently is corrupt. The boot
files remained there when you reinstalled to the wrong (the
80G) drive. Therefore the 160G boots.
[Rightclick My Computer. Choose Manage. Under Storage in the
left pane, click Disk management. Which drive says "System",
which says "Active" ("Boot"), etc. in the right pane? (This is
the Disk SnapIn Tool, and may cause you to reinstall
everything, if used to make changes without proper Knowledge.)




Currently, the D: drive (the 80gig drive that used to be my C:
drive) is listed as Boot, while the C: drive (the 160gig drive
that used to be my D: drive) is listed as system.

As of Now, ANY programs installed with the first Windows
install are pointing to the wrong drive, because when you
installed the 2nd Windows, THAT became the C: drive according
to Windows. So ANY/ALL programs not reinstalled are skewed,
and any leftover parts are, too.
Best bet: total reinstall of entire system.(if it was me)
To make Photoshop work (possibly), as is: replicate the path
to the the library with empty folders on the D: drive, and
copy the final library folder at the end of the path.
That is: If program's path says D:\Program
Files\Adobe\Photoshop\Library, open D:\Program Files and just
make a New>folder named Adobe, make a folder inside it named
Photoshop, then copy and paste the library folder inside of
that. May work; don't know what all else you've reinstalled,
or haven't.
I'd start over.




To start over, do I need to erase these system files from one
of my drives? Specifically, do I need to get rid of (or move to
the other drive) NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM, and BOOT.INI?

When I insert the Recovery disk to re-install windows, it
always refers to my drives backwards ... in other words, the
original C: drive (80gig) was always referred to by this
program as my D: drive. I'm sure this is part of the confusion
that I am having.

You are definitely correct about Photoshop Album, but I want my
data files on a different drive from my Windows installation,
just in case I ever have to do a re-install.



Place the drive on which you want to install Windows at the
Master position on the Primary IDE controller. Keep the other
drive(s) OUT of the machine until you have Windows installed
properly and up and running, these other drives can be brought
online after you install Windows. That will avoid mix ups and
errors like the one you experienced. Just be sure to place the
Windows drive at the position as I said earlier. Format the
drive and reinstall Windows properly. Once you are satisfied
that Windows is properly installed and running properly shut
down the computer and install your other drive(s).

After installing the other drive and BEFORE you reboot Windows
start the computer with a BootItNG diskette.
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html This is a fully
functional 30 day trial version. Following the instruction from
the site above create a boot diskette. DO NOT INSTALL
BootItNG! It will work from a diskette boot, like a Windows 9x
DOS boot diskette, just hit Escape or click cancel and it will
tell you that it's entering "Maintenance Mode" (or something
like that). Once there remove the "Active" flag from any
partitions on the second hard drive. BE CAREFUL! Don't mix up
your drives and don't remove the active flag on the Windows
System Partition! Once done remove the BootItNG diskette and
reboot the computer to your Windows Installation.

If the computer doesn't boot properly, you stuck the drives in
the wrong place or the Master/Slave jumpers are wrong. Just
make sure that the Windows installation is on partition 1 on
HDD0, and that this is the drive set to boot in the BIOS.

John

John,

Thank you, this is very helpful. I might still decide to
re-install Windows again to get things running properly, or I
might not. It is a lot of work.

However, I don't know my way around the inside of the computer
well. When you say "Place the drive on which you want to install
Windows at the Master position on the Primary IDE controller",
I'm not really sure I know how to do that. The computer arrived
new with the C: drive on the third IDE controller, and my D:
drive as the master (and only) drive on the primary IDE
controller. I have no idea why they did that, and right now I
have no idea how to move things around as you instructed so that
the drive I want to be my C: drive as the master on the primary
IDE controller. Can you help?


There is only 2 IDE controllers on motherboards. Unless you have
an IDE controller card I don't see where this third IDE controller
comes from. Maybe you have SATA instead of EIDE drives? Does the
drive and data cable look like these with wide fat connectors:
http://www.buildeasypc.com/hw/howto/insthdd.htm Or do the cables
look like this (SATA): http://www.satagear.com/SATA_Cables.html ?

John

John,

When I boot the computer, and go into the BIOS setup, it tells me
that the 80gig HD that has my Windows installation is the "Third
IDE Master". That's not my interpretation ... that's the exact
wording in the BIOS setup. The 160 gig HD is listed as the First
IDE Master.



Most likely the Third IDE Master 80 GB drive is SATA. If there is no
Third IDE Slave, then it's definitely SATA. You won't be able to make
it First IDE.

As far as what the cables look like, I won't have time to open the
case and look tonight. That's a job for when I have more time
(maybe tomorrow).

Thanks for your help, I really would like to understand what is
going on and how to fix it, but I'm not going to try re-installing
Windows again until I'm sure I understand this, otherwise I will
most likely spend hours only to wind up right back where I am now.



If you want the 80 GB drive to be C: and the Windows system and boot
drive, do the following:

1. Move the 80 GB drive to the top of the list in BIOS setup Hard Disk
Boot Priority setting.



No, no, no. The 80GB was at the top of the list from the day the
computer arrived. When I ran the Windows Recovery/Install CD last
weekend, it decided that the 80GB drive, which was at the top of the
list in the BIOS setup Hard Disk Boot Priority, was actually the D:
drive, and then I wnet ahead and clean installed WIndows anyway and
now the computer thinks the 80GB drive is the D: drive.

Forget the drive letters, Paige. These letters can be misleading and
they mean absolutely nothing to the computer. Drives and partitions
have numbers, not letters, the letters are arbitrarily assigned by the
operating system at the time of installation and can be different from
one operating system to another on the same computer. You could have
a dual boot on your computer and the drive letter assignment could be
completely different when you boot one or the other.

Do you want to install Windows XP on the 80 gig drive? If yes remove
the power to the 160 gig drive and look in the BIOS. What do you see?
Where is the 80 gig drive? On the first controller? And how is the
boot order set?

John

Ps. The drives can be disabled in the BIOS but if you are confusing
the drives, removing the power to the drive is a foolproof way of
seeing the right drive and its position in the BIOS.

I finally got around to opening the case and removing the power from the
160 gig drive.

Here's what the BIOS told me. The only drive in the boot order was
listed as:

CH 2. M HSD72..... (the 80GB drive)

The order of drives on the controllers is:

IDE Primary Master: None (160 GB drive would be here if it had power)
IDE Primary Slave: None
IDE Secondary Master: DVD-ROM
IDE Secondary Slave: DVD-RW
CH 2. M HSD72..... (the 80GB drive)(this is my 80 GB drive which has the
Windows installation as appears as the D: drive).

So how do I fix this so that Windows is installed on the 80GB drive AND
this is the C: drive?

Another concern I have is that somehow the boot.ini and related files
are now on my 160GB drive and apparently not on the 80GB drive, even
though the 80GB drive has the Windows installation. SHould I ever want
to replace my 160GB drive with a larger drive, then unless I can write
the boot.ini and related files to the larger drive, I have a system that
won't boot. So how do I fix this?

Something doesn't add up, Paige. You say that the (only drive in) boot
order is listed as:

CH 2. M HSD72..... (the 80GB drive)

and latter you say that the 80GB drive is identified (listed) as:

IDE Third Master: HSD78...

Do you see the inconsistency? (HSD7#...)

Can you go through all the available devices in the boot order and
change the order of the list?

Are your 80 and 160 gb drives of the same type? Which type are they?
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/resources/DriveCompatibilityguide.asp

John

 

[Paige Miller]

Something doesn't add up, Paige. You say that the (only drive in) boot
order is listed as:

CH 2. M HSD72..... (the 80GB drive)

and latter you say that the 80GB drive is identified (listed) as:

IDE Third Master: HSD78...

Do you see the inconsistency? (HSD7#...)

Typo, my fault. The numbers following HSD match... The drive on CH 2
(which is at the top of the boot order when I unplug the power from
the 160GB drive) is the same as the IDE Third Master.

Can you go through all the available devices in the boot order and
change the order of the list?

If I change the order, the computer won't boot. It only boots if the
160GB drive is listed first (I think because that's where boot.ini is
located).

Are your 80 and 160 gb drives of the same type? Which type are they?
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/resources/DriveCompatibilityguide.asp

160GB drive is IDE
80GB drive is SATA

--
Paige Miller
(e-mail address removed)

It's nothing until I call it -- Bill Klem, NL Umpire
If you get the choice to sit it out or dance,
I hope you dance -- Lee Ann Womack

 

[Eric Dycus]

Keep in mind the Hard Drives has a Active Partition that's the one that it
tries to boot off of. Di dyou active partition get changed?

Hello Paige,

 

[Paige Miller]

Keep in mind the Hard Drives has a Active Partition that's the one that
it tries to boot off of. Di dyou active partition get changed?

Apparently, my active partition did get changed somehow. To recap for
you, Eric, the computer arrived with the C: drive and Windows XP
installation on my SATA 80GB hard drive, which was (and still is) the
Third Ide master according to the BIOS. It also had an IDE D: drive
which is 160GB, as the first IDE Master.

However, when I tried to re-install a clean copy of Windows XP, the 80
GB drive became the D: drive, but has the active (and only) Windows XP
installation. The C: drive is now the 160GB drive, all my data is
intact, but it appears that boot.ini and related files are located on
this drive now. When I set the boot order to boot the 80GB drive
first, it refused to boot. When I set the boot order to boot the 160GB
drive first, it boots, even though the only Windows XP installation is
on the 80GB drive.

I would like to rectify all this. I want my 80GB SATA drive (the Third
IDE master) to be the boot drive with the active Windows XP
installation and it should be the C: drive just as when the computer
arrived; and I would like the IDE 160GB drive (the first IDE master)to
be my D: drive and not needed in the boot-up sequence, just like when
the computer arrived.

How do I fix this?

--
Paige Miller
(e-mail address removed)

It's nothing until I call it -- Bill Klem, NL Umpire
If you get the choice to sit it out or dance,
I hope you dance -- Lee Ann Womack

 

[John John]

Apparently, my active partition did get changed somehow. To recap for
you, Eric, the computer arrived with the C: drive and Windows XP
installation on my SATA 80GB hard drive, which was (and still is) the
Third Ide master according to the BIOS. It also had an IDE D: drive
which is 160GB, as the first IDE Master.

However, when I tried to re-install a clean copy of Windows XP, the 80
GB drive became the D: drive, but has the active (and only) Windows XP
installation. The C: drive is now the 160GB drive, all my data is
intact, but it appears that boot.ini and related files are located on
this drive now. When I set the boot order to boot the 80GB drive first,
it refused to boot. When I set the boot order to boot the 160GB drive
first, it boots, even though the only Windows XP installation is on the
80GB drive.

I would like to rectify all this. I want my 80GB SATA drive (the Third
IDE master) to be the boot drive with the active Windows XP installation
and it should be the C: drive just as when the computer arrived; and I
would like the IDE 160GB drive (the first IDE master)to be my D: drive
and not needed in the boot-up sequence, just like when the computer
arrived.

How do I fix this?

There is only one way to fix this, Paige. You have to reinstall
Windows, no if's and's or but's about it! Move all the files that you
want to keep off the 80 gb drive. Shut down the computer, take the
power off the 160 gb drive. Boot with your Windows XP cd, format the 80
gb drive and install XP on it.

You may (most likely WILL) need the SATA drivers on a diskette to
properly access the 80 gb drive, at the very start of the setup routine
you have to press F6 to tell Windows setup that you want her to load
alternate drive controller drivers. The drivers HAVE to be on a
diskette. Pay close attention when setup starts and you will see the F6
message at the bottom of the screen.

When you last installed Windows did you feed it the SATA drivers on a
diskette? No? Well then chances are it didn't even see the 80 gig
drive and that is why Windows ended up on the 160 gb drive. Windows
knows all there is to know to install on an EIDE drive. It knows next
to nothing about any other type of drive controller! Things might be a
bit different with SP2, but even then don't count on it knowing of all
the different SATA controllers. To avoid more errors keep the 160 gb
drive UNPLUGGED while you install Windows! You have NO choice but to
start again from scratch, as far as drive letters are concerned, what
you have there is "unfixable".

John

 

[Paige Miller]

There is only one way to fix this, Paige. You have to reinstall
Windows, no if's and's or but's about it! Move all the files that you
want to keep off the 80 gb drive. Shut down the computer, take the
power off the 160 gb drive. Boot with your Windows XP cd, format the 80
gb drive and install XP on it.

I'm sure I can do this part. I have now mastered the skill known as
opening the case and removing the power from a drive.

You may (most likely WILL) need the SATA drivers on a diskette to
properly access the 80 gb drive, at the very start of the setup routine
you have to press F6 to tell Windows setup that you want her to load
alternate drive controller drivers. The drivers HAVE to be on a
diskette. Pay close attention when setup starts and you will see the F6
message at the bottom of the screen.

Where do I find SATA drivers? I don't think I have them. I do have a
CD of drivers that came with the computer, but I don't really know
what to look for.

When you last installed Windows did you feed it the SATA drivers on a
diskette? No? Well then chances are it didn't even see the 80 gig
drive and that is why Windows ended up on the 160 gb drive. Windows
knows all there is to know to install on an EIDE drive. It knows next
to nothing about any other type of drive controller! Things might be a
bit different with SP2, but even then don't count on it knowing of all
the different SATA controllers. To avoid more errors keep the 160 gb
drive UNPLUGGED while you install Windows! You have NO choice but to
start again from scratch, as far as drive letters are concerned, what
you have there is "unfixable".

I did not provide any SATA drivers when I did the clean install of
Windows XP, as I don't think I have them.

Last time, when I did the clean install of Windows, the installation
program saw both drives, but flipped the drive letters -- in other
words, the installation program saw my IDE 160 GB drive as C: and the
SATA 80GB drive as D: (probably because it was on the third
controller), and since I told it to install Windows XP on the 80GB
drive, I now have my Windows installation on the SATA 80GB D: drive.

So what are you saying? After I have completed the installation of
Windows on the SATA 80GB drive with the 160GB drive unplugged, I need
to insert a diskette with the SATA drivers? If I am successful at
installing Windows on the 80GB SATA drive, then the 80GB SATA drive is
configured properly, and it is the 160GB IDE drive that I need to plug
in and have the computer BIOS recognize ... why would I need a SATA
driver for that? I am still unclear about this.

--
Paige Miller
(e-mail address removed)

It's nothing until I call it -- Bill Klem, NL Umpire
If you get the choice to sit it out or dance,
I hope you dance -- Lee Ann Womack

 

[John John]

I'm sure I can do this part. I have now mastered the skill known as
opening the case and removing the power from a drive.

Just stick the Windows XP cd in the machine and install XP. Try it and
see what happens.

Where do I find SATA drivers? I don't think I have them. I do have a CD
of drivers that came with the computer, but I don't really know what to
look for.

IF you need them they would probably be on the motherboard cd. Check
the different cds that came with the computer.

I did not provide any SATA drivers when I did the clean install of
Windows XP, as I don't think I have them.

Last time, when I did the clean install of Windows, the installation
program saw both drives, but flipped the drive letters -- in other
words, the installation program saw my IDE 160 GB drive as C: and the
SATA 80GB drive as D: (probably because it was on the third controller),
and since I told it to install Windows XP on the 80GB drive, I now have
my Windows installation on the SATA 80GB D: drive.

I think Windows took the path of least resistance.

John

 

[Paige Miller]

IF you need them they would probably be on the motherboard cd. Check
the different cds that came with the computer.

I have NVidia SMBUS driver, NVidia Ethernet Driver and NVidia IDE
Driver. I did need to provide this CD when I installed Windows. I
don't see anything labeled SATA.

--
Paige Miller
(e-mail address removed)

It's nothing until I call it -- Bill Klem, NL Umpire
If you get the choice to sit it out or dance,
I hope you dance -- Lee Ann Womack

 

[John John]

Just try to install Windows and see what happens.

John