Bit of wire as good as an antistatic strap?

M

Mike Scott

Joe said:
And your comment "If it's plugged in (while switched off at
the mains)" has a pair of unstated assumptions:

1) The grounding ("earth") conductor is in fact working as
it should, and
2) No other device on that branch circuit is leaking energy
into the supposedly dead current-carrying conductors.

If either of these is an issue you have worse problems than static
prevention. Earth connections *must* be working or you'll risk frying
your equipment when connecting to other kit (*). TBH I can't see how (2)
can be an issue if I've switched the equipment off at the mains.

The scenario I'm thinking of is when the antistatic wriststrap itself
plugs into the mains earth. If the equipment isn't also grounded, then
*it* could become charged and discharge through the grounded technician,
again zapping something. As has been pointed out, both must be at the
same potential (preferably 0V :) )


(*) Have you ever been connected to the mains via the capacitance of
badly earthed, equipment? It can be, er, interesting.
 
F

Fisher

A troll giving potentially dangerous advice about a subject he
apparently knows nothing about.

I'm not a troll. That is seriously what I read a few years back. But
accepting that that may have been BS info I have decided to revise
that info and go with this latest info. Personally, I don't use a
wrist strap because as you can see from this article it isn't so
simple to just stick on a ten dollar Radioshack wrist strap and think
you are properly protected. I've never fried a component yet, and as I
said before, any computer store I've been into where I've seen them
working on people's PC's they are not wearing wrist straps. Not saying
they shouldn't be, but they usually don't.

http://www.esdnw.org/Newsletters/05-08-02 Newsletter/Page 4.htm

The All Important Wrist Strap

By Bill Metz

Given that a worker can generate potentials of 5,000 volts (50
times higher than the level considered safe for modem electronic
components) by simply walking across the floor, a comprehensive
program to control ESD is an absolute requirement for manufacturing
quality electronic products.

The problem for most managers and engineers is determining which
ESD control products are appropriate for their particular application.
The first place to start is at the individual workstation. The best
way to remove the threat of ESD at the workstation is to discharge
conductors using grounded wrist straps, table mats and floor mats. But
it is important to prevent isolation at any point in the workstation
grounding system. One way to ensure this is by completing all
grounding to the safety ground in the facility grounding system, not
earth ground.

The general consensus is that the first element in any ESD control
program is personnel grounding. The most familiar tool, and one that
is often mistaken as sufficient protection from ESD by itself, is the
common wrist strap. Wrist straps come with a variety of bands ranging
from conductive plastic and bead chain to Velcro and conductive fiber.
The strap itself is usually comprised of multi-strand wire, but also
comes in solid conductive plastic and nylon. Most wrist straps include
a one megohm series resistor to limit current through the body in the
event of accidental contact with 120 volts AC.

The biggest problem with wrist straps is intermittent or permanent
discontinuity. Daily or more frequent testing of wrist straps is
extremely important to any ESD control program. This is why it is
recommended that wrist strap checkers be used to test for continuity,
and that the checkers be fitted with an alarm or have LED's that light
up when an open circuit or high resistance condition occurs. Many
discontinuities can be attributed to improper connection of the wrist
strap. Most experts warn that wrist straps should never be connected
through the work surface as a path to ground. Common work surfaces add
too much resistance for effective personnel grounding. The best
solution, say experts, is to use a separate, hard wired path to a
connecting socket or bus for the strap connection.

Another often-overlooked cause of discontinuity is the connection
to the wrist. The outer layer of the wrist often has a dead skin layer
that acts as an open circuit, particularly in dry climates. Body hair
can also act as an insulator. One way to avoid this problem is to use
ESD lotion. ESD or IC lotions are wetting solutions that are solely
designed to improve the electrical contact between the wrist strap and
the wearer. ESD lotions should never be used as hand cream. They lack
the key ingredients that are needed to make them a good hand cream.

Even though there are many other equally important elements in a
good ESD prevention program, the wrist strap can certainly be looked
upon as the first line of defense.
 
A

Al Dykes

If either of these is an issue you have worse problems than static
prevention. Earth connections *must* be working or you'll risk frying
your equipment when connecting to other kit (*). TBH I can't see how (2)
can be an issue if I've switched the equipment off at the mains.

The scenario I'm thinking of is when the antistatic wriststrap itself
plugs into the mains earth. If the equipment isn't also grounded, then
*it* could become charged and discharge through the grounded technician,
again zapping something. As has been pointed out, both must be at the
same potential (preferably 0V :) )

In this case I think the "something" zapped will be the technician.

Keep is simple, folks. Unplug anything you are working on. Don't
depend on some switch, esp one that's out of sight. It's too easy when
you are focused on a problem to forget that ths switch isn't off.

Connecting a ground strap to anything but the chassis you are working
on is wrong and possibly dangerous. Using a ground strap that doesn't
have a multi-megohm resister in it is asking to have a heart-stopping
experience.
 
D

DevilsPGD

There is live voltage on the mobo whenever a modern PC is plugged into
the wall. A dropped tool could short something out.

Unless you happen to hit the power switch on the power supply before you
start -- This will shut down the ATX always-on power too, but still
leave you with grounding.
 
A

Al Dykes

Unless you happen to hit the power switch on the power supply before you
start -- This will shut down the ATX always-on power too, but still
leave you with grounding.


What's that glowing LED I see on recent mobos even when the front
panel power switch is off.
 
D

DevilsPGD

Precisely. That means there is power on the mobo.

Unplug it before you work on it.

Or hit the power switch on the power supply -- Assuming your house
building ground is wired properly, you're better off being grounded
while you're working -- But you need to make sure that the power supply
itself is turned off.

In fairness, not all power supplies have a switch, but virtually all
quality power supplies do.
 
I

IDIDIT

That's what I know from researching the subject.. Where is ground?
Your PC case is not ground.

?????????? If that's so kindly explain how the components work, and
when I check voltages why do I get readings as I always use case
ground as it's faily convienant.


They sell wrist straps that attach to
electrical ground receptors for a reason.

They work if attached to the case as well.
 
D

David Maynard

IDIDIT said:
?????????? If that's so kindly explain how the components work, and
when I check voltages why do I get readings as I always use case
ground as it's faily convienant.

You're mixing apples and oranges. He's referring to earth ground.

The 'components' don't need earth ground to 'work' and the reason your
measurements work using case is because it's tied to 'circuit ground'.

Now, the case is also tied to earth through the the PSU mounting screws and
from there via the earth connection in the PSU which, if everything is
proper, goes through the power cord earth wire, to the power receptacle
earth pin, and through the AC wiring earth wire to the power distribution
panel earth bus and eventually, hopefully, to something akin to 'earth'.
The case, however, is not earth.
 
J

Joe Morris

JAD said:
The number one static producing machine is my wheelchair.....after running
round Best Buy for ten minutes, I could put all thier floor model computers
out of buisness. LOL Once I through an arc of 4 inches to my granddaughter
hand in the airport.

....although some systems are more resiliant to ESD than one might expect.

Far too many years ago the group I was working with used a DEC PDP-1
system that was installed in an office that wasn't originally intended
to be used to house a computer. The office floor was carpeted -- and
this was long before "computer room carpet" was invented. During the
winter it was trivially easy to build up a charge by walking across
the room ... and even easier if you deliberately shuffled your feet.

The PDP-1 was used for legitimate purposes but a quite visible fraction
of its time was spent playing Spacewar (this was the machine on which
Spacewar was originally written). The local crew discovered that
one could really irritate Spacewar players by coming into the room,
shuffling across the floor, then using a coin draw an arc between
your body and the PDP-1 cabinet. Quarter to half-inch arcs (no,
I never actually measured them with a ruler) were easy to generate.

The amazing thing is that the *only* effect of doing this was to
set the stop latch. I don't recall ever hearing of any hardware
damage [1] or data corruption from this, and once the players had vented
their displeasure at the perpetrator all they needed to do was to
press the CONTINUE switch to resume the game where it was interrupted.

[1] ...although I suspect that both management and the DEC engineers
were none too pleased about this.

Joe Morris
 
J

Joe Morris

Mike Scott said:
Joe Morris wrote:
If either of these is an issue you have worse problems than static
prevention.

Absolutely true. Unfortunately, though, going through various USENET
newsgroups I see far too many examples of someone who has unknowingly
set up an unsafe environment while trying to "do the right thing" -- the
use of water pipes for grounding being one of the more common. And
I've seen more than my share of environments where power was backfed
from a live system into a (supposedly) dead one...or where a power
cable came out of a totally dead fusebox -- but was live because some
idiot ran it *through* the fusebox, into the next room where it was
connected to 110VAC. (Hint: a pair of diagonal cutters causes a very
impressive display of fireworks when cutting through live wires behind
a 30A breaker)

Earth connections *must* be working or you'll risk frying
your equipment when connecting to other kit (*). TBH I can't see how (2)
can be an issue if I've switched the equipment off at the mains.

Consider two boxes, with a cable between them. The power to box 1 (only)
is cut off at the breaker panel, but box 2 is still live. Now
think about the consequences if the power interface in box 2 develops
leakage from the mains (assume no GFI protection) that gets fed
through the cable into either the electronics of box 1, or maybe its
chassis. If the leakage isn't enough to trip the breaker feeding
box 2 then you have all sorts of nasty possibilities sitting around,
just waiting for Murphy to pass by and direct your fingers to the
wrong place...
(*) Have you ever been connected to the mains via the capacitance of
badly earthed, equipment? It can be, er, interesting.

In a word, yes. I've also got some interesting scars from where a
few zillion electrons tried to make their way through the back of
my arm thanks to ... well, never mind.

Joe Morris
 
D

David Maynard

Joe said:
...although some systems are more resiliant to ESD than one might expect.

Far too many years ago the group I was working with used a DEC PDP-1
system that was installed in an office that wasn't originally intended
to be used to house a computer. The office floor was carpeted -- and
this was long before "computer room carpet" was invented. During the
winter it was trivially easy to build up a charge by walking across
the room ... and even easier if you deliberately shuffled your feet.

The PDP-1 was used for legitimate purposes but a quite visible fraction
of its time was spent playing Spacewar (this was the machine on which
Spacewar was originally written).

Played on the innovative and amazing CAthode RAy tube DISplay ("convenient
means for the computer to talk to the operator" [at 20,000 points per
second]), not to mention the computer's startling capability for "100,000
additions per second (about 2.5 times the speed of most large computers in
use today)."

Been there, played it, got the T-shirt ;)

Read all about it
http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/GBell/Digital/PDP 1 Manual 1960.pdf
http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/GBell/Digital/PDP 1 Manual 1961.pdf

The local crew discovered that
one could really irritate Spacewar players by coming into the room,
shuffling across the floor, then using a coin draw an arc between
your body and the PDP-1 cabinet. Quarter to half-inch arcs (no,
I never actually measured them with a ruler) were easy to generate.

The amazing thing is that the *only* effect of doing this was to
set the stop latch. I don't recall ever hearing of any hardware
damage [1] or data corruption from this, and once the players had vented
their displeasure at the perpetrator all they needed to do was to
press the CONTINUE switch to resume the game where it was interrupted.

The PDP-1 was made of discrete transistors and bipolar at that. Modern day
MOSFET based ICs are a different matter.
[1] ...although I suspect that both management and the DEC engineers
were none too pleased about this.

Joe Morris
 
A

aleX

Mike said:
(*) Have you ever been connected to the mains via the capacitance of
badly earthed, equipment? It can be, er, interesting.
I think it's always a good idea to do the 'extra press' thing with the
power button to drain any charge out through the switched-off wall
socket as someone stated earlier. Not sure about computer components,
but things like guitar effects pedals and televisions can hold charge
for a long time (many days in my experience).

I don't know if it was a high capacitance charge or mains-240 I took
once from a washing machine I was repairing, the first and only time I
stupidly forgot to check the power was off. It was like getting hit on
the arm with a sledgehammer. Luckily only one hand was touching
anything, and even luckier it was the back of my hand. Very careful
these days :)
 
K

kony

I think it's always a good idea to do the 'extra press' thing with the
power button to drain any charge out through the switched-off wall
socket as someone stated earlier.

It merely shaves a few seconds off how long the caps hold
their charge- within 10 seconds they should be drained
either way.

Not sure about computer components,
but things like guitar effects pedals and televisions can hold charge
for a long time (many days in my experience).

Yes, some things do- ATX computers do not.
 
A

aleX

kony said:
It merely shaves a few seconds off how long the caps hold
their charge- within 10 seconds they should be drained
either way.





Yes, some things do- ATX computers do not.

Thanks for the info.

I did read on a graphics-card modding page that high-end cards can build
up a lethal voltage (or should I say ampage, not sure) and shouldn't be
messed with when the PC is on - a bit like TV sets. Of course, you
wouldn't want to go messing with the mains transformer when the power is
on either! I assume there is no charge stored by these cards, and hence
no risk when the power is off, even fleetingly?
 
K

kony

I did read on a graphics-card modding page that high-end cards can build
up a lethal voltage (or should I say ampage, not sure)

Beware of kids posting about video cards.
There are NO high voltages, let alone lethal ones, outside
of the power supply casing. I will grant you that someone,
somewhere, might be able to do something really odd to
electrocute themselves with 12V, but it's not at all common
and would require piercing the skin with something
strategicially placed across the heart. Anyone inside the
PC having such an event happen was probably bound to end up
killing themselves one way or another regardless of the PC.
;)


The amperage is fairly high on some cards, but that in
itself isn't a cause for concern, you could literally rub
your hands all over a card and only damage the card.

On the other hand, it is good advice not to fiddle with a
modified card while it's running- too great a change of
shorting something if poking around on it with multimeter
probes or fiddling with a volt-mod potentiometer... though I
admit I've done both of these things myself, without issue,
but still it's a do-so-at-own-risk situation, attention to
detail is most important.

and shouldn't be
messed with when the PC is on - a bit like TV sets. Of course, you
wouldn't want to go messing with the mains transformer when the power is
on either! I assume there is no charge stored by these cards, and hence
no risk when the power is off, even fleetingly?

Their caps hold a charge but the onboard power circuit
continues to run- it is not "told" to shut off, it just does
so by running out of power- by draining the caps when the
sytem PSU is shut off.

Even so, there is no voltage on a video card that's over
12V, and the GPU and memory run at much lower, below 2V
these days.

There just isn't any reasonable risk of being electrocuted
by any part in a PC except inside the power supply, not even
a risk of any harm to a human except under very
extraordinary circumstances. The risk is all to the
equipment That is, unless you had some serious power supply
fault in additon to a faulty AC outlet... such things are
already outside of the expected conditions and the power
supply should've immediately shut off- not a situation with
a running system.
 
M

Mike Scott

kony said:
Beware of kids posting about video cards.
There are NO high voltages, let alone lethal ones, outside
of the power supply casing. I will grant you that someone,
somewhere, might be able to do something really odd to
electrocute themselves with 12V, but it's not at all common
and would require piercing the skin with something
strategicially placed across the heart. Anyone inside the
PC having such an event happen was probably bound to end up
killing themselves one way or another regardless of the PC.
;)

Not exactly a problem on PC's, but I believe that some flat displays can
have high voltages inside - my camcorder has warning about this.
The amperage is fairly high on some cards, but that in
itself isn't a cause for concern, you could literally rub
your hands all over a card and only damage the card.

It very much is a concern. I remember when I first started work, my
boss warned me what had happened to my predecessor. We had a PDP8,
which was rack-mounted with wire-wrapped connections all over the
backplane accessible at the front of it. Only low voltage - 5 & 12 iirc,
so perfectly safe. Well, no. He was working on the panel, live, when
his wedding ring shorted the 5V rail to the neighbouring earth. Lots
and lots of amps welded his ring in place; and it was getting hot.....
Apparently his finger did survive the mishap. But the point is that
high-current supplies still need respect, even at low voltage.
 
K

kony

Not exactly a problem on PC's, but I believe that some flat displays can
have high voltages inside - my camcorder has warning about this.

yes there should be an inverter circuit though most flat
displays are not user servicable, a technician hoping to
service one ought to already be able to assess the risk else
they probably aren't capable of the service at all.

It very much is a concern. I remember when I first started work, my
boss warned me what had happened to my predecessor. We had a PDP8,
which was rack-mounted with wire-wrapped connections all over the
backplane accessible at the front of it. Only low voltage - 5 & 12 iirc,
so perfectly safe. Well, no. He was working on the panel, live, when
his wedding ring shorted the 5V rail to the neighbouring earth. Lots
and lots of amps welded his ring in place; and it was getting hot.....
Apparently his finger did survive the mishap. But the point is that
high-current supplies still need respect, even at low voltage.

The current on a card, and especially the reserve from caps
(typically a couple thousand mfd at most per any point), is
nowhere near that high, not a concern for the technician's
well-being. It is only high current relative to some other
parts in a PC. Your point about jewelry is a good one- the
technician should always remove jewelry before letting that
hand/arm/neck/etc near electrical components.
 
J

Joe Morris

It merely shaves a few seconds off how long the caps hold
their charge- within 10 seconds they should be drained
either way.

....assuming that there's a bleed resistor across the PS caps, and that it
hasn't opened. I've seen both types of failures, and while I've never
personally been zapped by them I've seen it happen to others -- with much
higher voltages than you will find in today's semiconductor circuits.

(In one such incident while I was working at a TV station in the mid
1960s was that I learned several Spanish cusswords: the victim was
a refugee from Castro's Cuba, and following the incident he expressed
his opinion of the ancestry and probably destination of the designer
of the circuit that zapped him after it was unplugged.)

Joe Morris
 

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