Barton in KT333 - help please

[S.Boardman]

Hello. I have just upgraded my MSI KT3 Ultra with a Barton XP2500+ and
Thermaltake Silentboost 7.
[Currently readings are as follows
XP1900 @ 1466Mhz.
Resting temp (in BIOS, side off case) 33 deg C
Used Artic Silver 5 so it should drop a bit more.
System temp (in BIOS, side off case) 32 deg C
CPU fan speed 2600rpm
I have PC2700 RAM at latency 2.5, set to SPD.
FSB 133, memory clock 133, AGP clock 55.5, PCI clock 33.3
CPU ratio set to auto]

I have found instructions to change the FSB, but it says
"make sure if your running at 133 that you dissable hostclk+33 first "
Where do I find hostclk+33 in my BIOS (v5.7)? I can't find it. Instructions
were at
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow
=1&safe=off&threadm=5%25saa.7125%24wW.726681%40news2.telusplanet.net&rnum=4&
prev=/groups%3Fq%3DMSI%2BKT3%2BUltra%2BBarton%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl
%3Den

Also, do I need to overclock the memory or something?

 

[kony]

Hello. I have just upgraded my MSI KT3 Ultra with a Barton XP2500+ and
Thermaltake Silentboost 7.
[Currently readings are as follows
XP1900 @ 1466Mhz.
Resting temp (in BIOS, side off case) 33 deg C
Used Artic Silver 5 so it should drop a bit more.
System temp (in BIOS, side off case) 32 deg C
CPU fan speed 2600rpm
I have PC2700 RAM at latency 2.5, set to SPD.
FSB 133, memory clock 133, AGP clock 55.5, PCI clock 33.3
CPU ratio set to auto]

I have found instructions to change the FSB, but it says
"make sure if your running at 133 that you dissable hostclk+33 first "
Where do I find hostclk+33 in my BIOS (v5.7)? I can't find it. Instructions
were at
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow
=1&safe=off&threadm=5%25saa.7125%24wW.726681%40news2.telusplanet.net&rnum=4&
prev=/groups%3Fq%3DMSI%2BKT3%2BUltra%2BBarton%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl
%3Den

Also, do I need to overclock the memory or something?

You do not need to overclock the memory, it is PC2700 which is correct
for a synchronous memory to FSB ratio of DDR, sometimes called 333MHz
but often called 166MHz at Double Data Rate.

See this review,
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=989&page=3
If your bios settings menus are still the same, the first picture
shows the memory speed as 333MHz when they used a DDR266 CPU. Focus
on that memory speed, don't try to change the rest of the settings to
match those in the review. The memory speed at 333 is at "+33" in the
example provided in the review, because they were using a DDR266 CPU.
It would be synchronously set at 266 or at "-33" at 200. However,
since you start out with a 166MHz, DDR333 FSB CPU, after manually
setting the CPU FSB to 166MHz (which is DDR333), you'd set the memory
also to 333, which wouldn't be "+33" anymore, would be synchronous to
the DDR333, 166MHz of the CPU FSB.

However some boards have bios bugs, where changing the CPU FSB doesn't
change the memory menu, so if your choices for memory don't change
after you increase the CPU FSB to 166MHz, choose the "middle" speed
setting of the three.

If the setting is difficult to set on the first try and your board
fails to POST, just clear the CMOS via the jumper (or remove battery
for a few mintures) and try again. If you don't have a printed
version of the motherboard manual handy it might be good to check the
online manual to see where the motherboard Clear CMOS jumper is before
trying to change these settings.


Dave

 

[kony]

Hello. I have just upgraded my MSI KT3 Ultra with a Barton XP2500+ and
Thermaltake Silentboost 7.
[Currently readings are as follows
XP1900 @ 1466Mhz.
Resting temp (in BIOS, side off case) 33 deg C
Used Artic Silver 5 so it should drop a bit more.
System temp (in BIOS, side off case) 32 deg C
CPU fan speed 2600rpm
I have PC2700 RAM at latency 2.5, set to SPD.
FSB 133, memory clock 133, AGP clock 55.5, PCI clock 33.3
CPU ratio set to auto]

I have found instructions to change the FSB, but it says
"make sure if your running at 133 that you dissable hostclk+33 first "
Where do I find hostclk+33 in my BIOS (v5.7)? I can't find it. Instructions
were at
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow
=1&safe=off&threadm=5%25saa.7125%24wW.726681%40news2.telusplanet.net&rnum=4&
prev=/groups%3Fq%3DMSI%2BKT3%2BUltra%2BBarton%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl
%3Den

Also, do I need to overclock the memory or something?

The following is a different (BIOS version?) for the KT3 board, where
the memory bus isn't set to a frequency number but rather to "HCLK",
which if the BIOS functions properly, should be what you want. Note
that the picture shows 133MHz for "current host clock", while your
board with the Barton CPU installed and set correctly, would show
166MHz for the current host clock.


Dave

 

[neopolaris]

Hello. I have just upgraded my MSI KT3 Ultra with a Barton XP2500+ and
Thermaltake Silentboost 7.
[Currently readings are as follows
XP1900 @ 1466Mhz.
Resting temp (in BIOS, side off case) 33 deg C
Used Artic Silver 5 so it should drop a bit more.
System temp (in BIOS, side off case) 32 deg C
CPU fan speed 2600rpm
I have PC2700 RAM at latency 2.5, set to SPD.
FSB 133, memory clock 133, AGP clock 55.5, PCI clock 33.3
CPU ratio set to auto]

I have found instructions to change the FSB, but it says
"make sure if your running at 133 that you dissable hostclk+33 first "
Where do I find hostclk+33 in my BIOS (v5.7)? I can't find it.
Instructions were at
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...s?q=MSI+KT3+Ultra+Barton&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl
%3Den

Also, do I need to overclock the memory or something?

Leave the FSB at 133. Go into bios and set the memory to speed. Restart.
Go back inton the bios and change the FSB from 133 to 166. restart. Should
do it.

neopolaris

 

[S.Boardman]

snip settings

ow
4&

The following is a different (BIOS version?) for the KT3 board, where
the memory bus isn't set to a frequency number but rather to "HCLK",
which if the BIOS functions properly, should be what you want. Note
that the picture shows 133MHz for "current host clock", while your
board with the Barton CPU installed and set correctly, would show
166MHz for the current host clock.

Yippeee When I changed it to 166, the DRAM changed to HCLK
automatically. At boot it now says DRAM clock 333 XP 2500+.

[If I wanted to overclock it, do I up the FSB or the ratio bit or both? I'm
not planning to do it right yet, since I still have the northbridge h/s (it
still requires a push from a cold start :-( and I want to change the RAID
from 0 to 1 - my next task).]
Thanks for your help. The hd/fan did fit, and I did have to take the m/b
out - but I got it all back in again .

 

[S.Boardman]

Forget that! I'm having problems in Windows 98. It wouldn't boot in to
Windows - hung on blank screen. Then it just got into safe mode and explorer
crashed. It works fine with the original settings (@ XP 1900). I have a
hunch it is the video card. I got an 'out of range' warning from the monitor
too, after POST.

The card is a (MSI) nVidia GeForce4 MX 440. The memory clock reported by
display properties in Windows is 405MHz, core clock 270. Elsewhere in the
settings it has a tick by 66MHz and AGP x4. BIOS version is 4.17.00.24.00.

Please help.

 

[kony]

Yippeee When I changed it to 166, the DRAM changed to HCLK
automatically. At boot it now says DRAM clock 333 XP 2500+.

[If I wanted to overclock it, do I up the FSB or the ratio bit or both? I'm
not planning to do it right yet, since I still have the northbridge h/s (it
still requires a push from a cold start :-( and I want to change the RAID
from 0 to 1 - my next task).]
Thanks for your help. The hd/fan did fit, and I did have to take the m/b
out - but I got it all back in again .

I'd go ahead and put a drop of oil in the northbridge fan NOW, rather
than waiting, even if you do replace it later... it might run for a
long time with the drop of oil but wear out completely if you keep
running it 'dry'.

It's hard to speculate exactly how far you can push that motherboard
and your PC2700 memory, so be cautious when raising the FSB speed...
it's the larger performance increase but also will subject you to
possibility of various things like memory errors, HDD corruption, and
USB ports, LAN, etc, malfunctioning after a certain point. I would
GUESS you should have no problems raising FSB at least to 172MHz, but
you'll have to do a lot of stability testing to go much higher, and I
wouldn't go higher until you have the HDD(s) backed up. Any
signficant FSB or memory timing changes should be followed up by
several hours of testing with memtest86:
http://www.memtest86.com
If this is your first time running the memory at 166MHz, if it was at
133MHz synchronous speed setting with the previous CPU, I'd run
memtest86 now regardless, just to be as sure as possible that it's
functioning properly.

The multiplier is the safter, easier way to increase CPU speed, though
your particular CPU will dictate how high it can go at default
voltage, though you may have BIOS settings or jumpers to change
voltage as well. I'd expect it can at least run at 12.5X multiplier,
though it might require a slight voltage increase. Just keep in mind
that "overdoing" it, if you raise the speed too high you may need to
clear the CMOS, then reenter any bios settings that were changed from
the defaults.


Dave

 

[kony]

Forget that! I'm having problems in Windows 98. It wouldn't boot in to
Windows - hung on blank screen. Then it just got into safe mode and explorer
crashed. It works fine with the original settings (@ XP 1900). I have a
hunch it is the video card. I got an 'out of range' warning from the monitor
too, after POST.

The card is a (MSI) nVidia GeForce4 MX 440. The memory clock reported by
display properties in Windows is 405MHz, core clock 270. Elsewhere in the
settings it has a tick by 66MHz and AGP x4. BIOS version is 4.17.00.24.00.

Please help.

I'm not sure what the problem is, but would suggest that you confirm
that the memory bus is indeed running in synchronous mode, equal to
the FSB speed. I'm wondering if it's possible that the motherboard
BIOS has a bug, that when it reports "333", it really means "FSB +33".
I'd try different bios settings for memory bus. Since this is
manifesting itself as a video problem you might also try changing some
video/agp settings in the bios. Since others have reported success
with a Barton and that motherboard, I'd assume it's something unique
to your system.

If you haven't yet ran memtest86, linked in my previous reply, i'd do
that as well.

Are you sure the northbridge fan is working, or other possibilities of
overheating?


Dave

 

[Hippy Paul]

Not familiar with the board but have a KT333 and a Barton 2500+ (which I
guess yours is from 1466MHz - 11x133)

In your original post you state that

I have PC2700 RAM at latency 2.5, set to SPD.
FSB 133, memory clock 133, AGP clock 55.5, PCI clock 33.3
CPU ratio set to auto]

The AGP clock is not right - if it is not a typing error - it should be 66.6
- is it still out of range with the 166fsb? also might it be locked to the
fsb in someway so it has been taken out of range by the increase in the fsb?
Also check that the cpu ratio is at 1:1 and not 4:5.

I also have (1x256Mb) pc2700 that I am running at 167Mhz @ 2.5, 2, 2, 6.
Some boards take issue with the number of ram sticks in use - in theory the
KT333 can only take two pc2700 sticks running at 166 - although no doubt
there are exceptions. Maybe try relaxing the memory timings - although I
found that the faster I ran my cpu - the less I could push the fsb -
irrespective of memory timings (other than if I tried CAS 2 - when no boot)

With regard to the overclocking - when you feel the need - I would check out

http://www.ocinside.de/go_e.html?/html/workshop/pinmod/amd_pinmod.html

I currently have a 14 x multiplier on 167fsb = 2340Mhz with vcore at 1.85v.

Also it seems on my board (Asus A7V333) that the system runs noticeably
cooler with the fsb at 167 x 14 (2340Mhz) than it used to with the fsb at
172 x 12.5 (2150Mhz - [and not fully stable])

 

[S.Boardman]

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 21:28:20 -0000, "S.Boardman"



I'd go ahead and put a drop of oil in the northbridge fan NOW, rather
than waiting, even if you do replace it later... it might run for a
long time with the drop of oil but wear out completely if you keep
running it 'dry'.

Which oil, and where exactly do I put it? I only see fins, how do I get to
the bit in the middle? Also, how can I tell if the northbridge bit is
overheating?

It's hard to speculate exactly how far you can push that motherboard
and your PC2700 memory, so be cautious when raising the FSB speed...
it's the larger performance increase but also will subject you to
possibility of various things like memory errors, HDD corruption, and
USB ports, LAN, etc, malfunctioning after a certain point. I would
GUESS you should have no problems raising FSB at least to 172MHz, but
you'll have to do a lot of stability testing to go much higher, and I
wouldn't go higher until you have the HDD(s) backed up. Any
signficant FSB or memory timing changes should be followed up by
several hours of testing with memtest86:
http://www.memtest86.com
If this is your first time running the memory at 166MHz, if it was at
133MHz synchronous speed setting with the previous CPU, I'd run
memtest86 now regardless, just to be as sure as possible that it's
functioning properly.

I wasn't planning to go higher than 1500MHz until I've done the RAID swap.
It looks now as though the northbridge issue is more pressing. I'm never
going to get a motherboard with a fan on again (if I can possibly help it).

The multiplier is the safter, easier way to increase CPU speed, though
your particular CPU will dictate how high it can go at default
voltage, though you may have BIOS settings or jumpers to change
voltage as well. I'd expect it can at least run at 12.5X multiplier,
though it might require a slight voltage increase. Just keep in mind
that "overdoing" it, if you raise the speed too high you may need to
clear the CMOS, then reenter any bios settings that were changed from
the defaults.

Thanks

 

[S.Boardman]

I'm not sure what the problem is, but would suggest that you confirm
that the memory bus is indeed running in synchronous mode, equal to
the FSB speed. I'm wondering if it's possible that the motherboard
BIOS has a bug, that when it reports "333", it really means "FSB +33".
I'd try different bios settings for memory bus. Since this is
manifesting itself as a video problem you might also try changing some
video/agp settings in the bios. Since others have reported success
with a Barton and that motherboard, I'd assume it's something unique
to your system.

Once I've changed the FSB to 166, HCLK is the only option I have. Set to SPD
doesn't work either. Well it works until I try to load Windows 98SE when I
get errors (a windows protection error this time).
I don't know what to change for the AGP. There are no clock settings there.
Most is auto or disabled for the AGP Master 1W/S Master Read or Write stuff.

If you haven't yet ran memtest86, linked in my previous reply, i'd do
that as well.

Will do, but concerned about Northbridge overheat.

Are you sure the northbridge fan is working, or other possibilities of
overheating?

CPU is fine, what else could overheat?

 

[Hippy Paul]

Just as an after thought, but it might be that your psu that is not up to
the job - going from an overclocked xp1800+ A core to an overclocked Barton
2500+ with one extra 80mm fan killed my 300w psu - that was running very
warm.

Take the fan off - peel the sticker off the middle - if there is a rubber
plug prize it out - drop a few drops of oil into the centre of the hole -
might see the spindle - spin fan couple of times, remove any serious excess
oil - and re-assemble - there is a web site somewhere that shows how -
google may find it -

 

[S.Boardman]

Not familiar with the board but have a KT333 and a Barton 2500+ (which I
guess yours is from 1466MHz - 11x133)

In your original post you state that

I have PC2700 RAM at latency 2.5, set to SPD.
FSB 133, memory clock 133, AGP clock 55.5, PCI clock 33.3
CPU ratio set to auto]

The AGP clock is not right - if it is not a typing error - it should be 66.6
- is it still out of range with the 166fsb? also might it be locked to the
fsb in someway so it has been taken out of range by the increase in the

fsb?

It seems to be 67 now, anyway. I might have to contact nVidia.

Also check that the cpu ratio is at 1:1 and not 4:5.

It's at auto?? all the options are a number and multiply eg 12x

I also have (1x256Mb) pc2700 that I am running at 167Mhz @ 2.5, 2, 2, 6.
Some boards take issue with the number of ram sticks in use - in theory the
KT333 can only take two pc2700 sticks running at 166 - although no doubt
there are exceptions. Maybe try relaxing the memory timings - although I
found that the faster I ran my cpu - the less I could push the fsb -
irrespective of memory timings (other than if I tried CAS 2 - when no

boot)

All memory stuff is set conservatively, on the slow side. I have two sticks
of 256 Mb PC2700 RAM. CAS 2.5, as labelled on the sticks.

With regard to the overclocking - when you feel the need - I would check out

Just working in Windows @ 2500 would be nice.

 

[S.Boardman]

Just as an after thought, but it might be that your psu that is not up to
the job - going from an overclocked xp1800+ A core to an overclocked Barton
2500+ with one extra 80mm fan killed my 300w psu - that was running very
warm.

I had an XP 2000+ in before. The new chip works fine 133 FSB, would upping
it affect Windows, but not into the BIOS? I did put on a new fan, power
input 1.56W. I would have thought it would have blown straight away at 166.

Take the fan off - peel the sticker off the middle - if there is a rubber
plug prize it out - drop a few drops of oil into the centre of the hole -
might see the spindle - spin fan couple of times, remove any serious excess
oil - and re-assemble - there is a web site somewhere that shows how -
google may find it -

Thanks What sort of oil? WD40? Light machine oil?

 

[kony]

I had an XP 2000+ in before. The new chip works fine 133 FSB, would upping
it affect Windows, but not into the BIOS? I did put on a new fan, power
input 1.56W. I would have thought it would have blown straight away at 166.

There are varying degress of (in)stability, often a system can enter
the BIOS but not run windows. I don't understand what you mean by
"... put on new fan... blown straight away at 166".

Thanks What sort of oil? WD40? Light machine oil?

Not WD40 or light machine oil. That's a very small fan, a single
(1/2) drop of the heaviest (thickest) oil you have there... a drop off
the car's dipstick might be ok if you don't have anything else. If
the fan is very worn and you see a lot of debris in the bearingway
then it can help to add a drop, wipe out the oil and debis, then add
another drop, so long as the (material) used to wipe out the debis
doesn't leave particles behind, like a cotton-swap or other similar
material might.

On the other hand, if this is a ball-bearing fan, the oil won't help a
lot, might get it spinning at power-on but it'll be noisey and won't
last very long compared to a re-oiled sleeve-bearing fan.

As for the instability, you do have the CPU multiplier still set to
default, 11X ?

Since it was stable at ~ 1.5GHz, as 11X @ 133MHz FSB, you might try
manually setting the FSB to 166, and the multiplier to 9X. Since that
results in nearly the same speed as was stable at 133MHz FSB, the
power supply should then be factored out, and you'd be seeing the
difference made by increased FSB & Memory bus speed.


Dave

 

[S.Boardman]

166.

There are varying degress of (in)stability, often a system can enter
the BIOS but not run windows. I don't understand what you mean by
"... put on new fan... blown straight away at 166".

Hippy Paul said that I might have blown the PSU. If that was the case, I'd
have thought it would have blown as soon as I changed the settings to 166,
rather than so wrong in Windows. Anyhow, the PSU still works.

Not WD40 or light machine oil. That's a very small fan, a single
(1/2) drop of the heaviest (thickest) oil you have there... a drop off
the car's dipstick might be ok if you don't have anything else. If
the fan is very worn and you see a lot of debris in the bearingway
then it can help to add a drop, wipe out the oil and debis, then add
another drop, so long as the (material) used to wipe out the debis
doesn't leave particles behind, like a cotton-swap or other similar
material might.

On the other hand, if this is a ball-bearing fan, the oil won't help a
lot, might get it spinning at power-on but it'll be noisey and won't
last very long compared to a re-oiled sleeve-bearing fan.

I have added 1 drop of a 3 in 1 type oil, and the northbridge fan doesn't
need a push anymore Infact it whizzes round, and is quieter too. I added
a drop to the GPU fan as well for good measure, and that too seems quieter.

As for the instability, you do have the CPU multiplier still set to
default, 11X ?

Since it was stable at ~ 1.5GHz, as 11X @ 133MHz FSB, you might try
manually setting the FSB to 166, and the multiplier to 9X. Since that
results in nearly the same speed as was stable at 133MHz FSB, the
power supply should then be factored out, and you'd be seeing the
difference made by increased FSB & Memory bus speed.

I will try this. ATM I'm running memtest again with the fsb/memory at 133.
Then I'll do it again at 166 and see what happens. The CPU ratio is
currently set to auto. I just push up the FSB bit.

It will probably be tomorrow before I will have the results.
(Of course, I'm secretly hoping it's the graphics card so I have an excuse
to get a new one

 

[Hippy Paul]

Hippy Paul said that I might have blown the PSU. If that was the case, I'd
have thought it would have blown as soon as I changed the settings to 166,
rather than so wrong in Windows. Anyhow, the PSU still works.

I did not mean to suggest you *had* broken it - just that it might be
struggling with the extra wattage the Barton consumes compared to the
XP2000. For example I went from circa 62W to circa 77W (allowing for
overclock - 51w - 68w not overclocked). You would be going from circa 60w to
circa 68w.

When my psu went I had been running the machine for 15 mins or so
benchmarking and was shutting down to change some bios settings - when it
just powered off - green motherboard light on and fans twitching once - when
the power was first switched on.

The issue with the cpu ratio at auto (assuming it is this setting) is that
there is a slight chance that it has been assumed that as the cpu will be at
166.6Mhz therefore the memory will be at a 4:5 ratio of 199.9Mhz - which
unless it is quality pc2700 - the memory may not be capable of doing - hence
the instability. If the ratio is at 1:1 or there is no -33 or +33 then the
memory will be at 166.6Mhz the same as the cpu and everything will be happy
as they are all meant to go that fast.

 

[dgk]

I did not mean to suggest you *had* broken it - just that it might be
struggling with the extra wattage the Barton consumes compared to the
XP2000. For example I went from circa 62W to circa 77W (allowing for
overclock - 51w - 68w not overclocked). You would be going from circa 60w to
circa 68w.

When my psu went I had been running the machine for 15 mins or so
benchmarking and was shutting down to change some bios settings - when it
just powered off - green motherboard light on and fans twitching once - when
the power was first switched on.

The issue with the cpu ratio at auto (assuming it is this setting) is that
there is a slight chance that it has been assumed that as the cpu will be at
166.6Mhz therefore the memory will be at a 4:5 ratio of 199.9Mhz - which
unless it is quality pc2700 - the memory may not be capable of doing - hence
the instability. If the ratio is at 1:1 or there is no -33 or +33 then the
memory will be at 166.6Mhz the same as the cpu and everything will be happy
as they are all meant to go that fast.

Notice please that it is also possible for one rail to fail and not
the other. I had a case recently where the fans spun and MB light was
on but it just did nothing. Replace PS, everything worked. Go figure.
Everyone should have a spare PSU in the closet next to their PCI video
card.

 

[S.Boardman]

It's on auto. Should I change it to 11?

I will try this. ATM I'm running memtest again with the fsb/memory at 133.
Then I'll do it again at 166 and see what happens. The CPU ratio is
currently set to auto. I just push up the FSB bit.

It will probably be tomorrow before I will have the results.

Hello! Running memtest86 at the higher speed... test 4, 26 per cent done,
184 errors already! Time for new ram I think ))

Time for more questions!
Should I stick with PC2700, or should I go for the faster PC3100?
CAS 2 or 2.5?
Which brand (in UK), Corsair or Crucial?
What about all the other little numbers I seen referred to? x-x-x-x?
Running Win98SE, I'll probably stick to 2 x 256Mb, especially since the
middle DIMM slot seems a little dodgey.
Opinions please
Isn't Usenet great?

 

[S.Boardman]

It's on auto. Should I change it to 11?


Hello! Running memtest86 at the higher speed... test 4, 26 per cent done,
184 errors already! Time for new ram I think ))

Time for more questions!
Should I stick with PC2700, or should I go for the faster PC3100?
CAS 2 or 2.5?
Which brand (in UK), Corsair or Crucial?
What about all the other little numbers I seen referred to? x-x-x-x?
Running Win98SE, I'll probably stick to 2 x 256Mb, especially since the
middle DIMM slot seems a little dodgey.
Opinions please
Isn't Usenet great?

Just to update...
I'm looking at 2 x Corsair CMX256A 2700LLPT
Would that be OK?
Low latency is programmed in the SPD, everything I have will cope, won't it?