Backing up XP pro with RAID 0 (IDE)

[Guest]

I would like to back up my entire system, including the OS, registry,
partitions, etc. I do not want to have to reinstall all the programs in case
of restoration which takes forever (or at least seem so). So far I've been
backing up all the nonprogram data to an another computer system.

I have researched this endlessly and can not find a clear answer that I am
sure will work without trying it. I have an ASUS p4c800 - Deluxe motherboard.

Important -- The Disk Drivers only work under Windows. The bios can read the
disk array 0 but there is not DOS driver for the drives. I would like to be
able to use ASR but do not think it will work without a DOS driver.

The two solutions I have come up with are

A) Clone the Disk and and its partitions to a new internal SATA disk. To
restore
1) set the boot device in the BIOS
2) get the system to boot off the clone
3) reclone it back to the original disk array.

B) Use the MS Backup utility to back up to another internal or external
drive. To restore (the system can not boot off the an external drive)
1) Reinstall windows onto the disk array
2) use the back up utility to resore (with overwrite) the entire system.

I am not attached to the RAID 0 and would use any solution (HW or SW) to
transforming my current system into one that is fully backupable.

 

[frodo]

since you're NOT using the RAID solution, why can't you just use Ghost?
It should boot just fine from a floppy, and can then make an image of any
partition to CDs. The bios SHOULD be able to operate the SATA just fine.
[It might be slow tho; be sure to turn on IDE Bus Mastering.].


I'd ask again on the ASUS forum, this is a common MB and someone there
will surely have the definiative answer.

 

[frodo]

Ok, one more time: are you set up on the RAID 0, as the subject states,
or not (as the last sentance says?). I'm confused!!!

IF raid 0 then there is really only one option that I know of: create a
minimal xp partition w/ Ghost (or drive image) on it, and use that to make
all your images. This "bootable backup partiton" is where you'd run all
your backp/restores from, for everyday you'd boot to your normal xp
partition. This special partition could be small (2 GB), and you'd make
your images to CD-R, or make the partiton large and save your images right
on it (fastest option really). Of course, if the drive (either one) fails
you're SOL. You could also have it make the images on a network attached
drive. Then if the local drive fails you'd replace it, reinstall just the
special partion w/ ghost on it (using ASR), then restore all the other
partitons from the network.

I do not know of an optimal solution when using RAID 0. I have the same
issue w/ my machine, and am living dagerously w/o a full image.

But... ;-) take a look at "Bart's Preinstalled Environment"

http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

Using it you MIGHT be able to make a bootable/runnable XP CD w/ the raid
drivers and Ghost on it that could create/restore images on/from a network
attached backup drive; that would be the ideal. Boot from the CD to make
your backups, and god forbid to restore them in the event of a failure.
Should be fast and easy. BUT you'd really need NAS to make it painless,
or a DVD burner, or even a firewire/USB 2.0 attached HD.

Good luck and let us know if you find a great way to do this!

 

[Timothy Daniels]

I would like to back up my entire system, including the OS,
registry, partitions, etc. I do not want to have to reinstall
all the programs in case of restoration which takes forever
(or at least seem so). So far I've been backing up all the
nonprogram data to an another computer system.

I have researched this endlessly and can not find a clear
answer that I am sure will work without trying it.

The easiest, the quickest, and the simplest way is to
backup the entire partition (or multiple partitions) to
another HD as a bootable image. That way, if the
primary HD crashes, you can just re-boot (perhaps with
an adjustment to the BIOS's boot sequence) and you
will have a running system within minutes. There are
many imaging (or "cloning") utilities to do this, but the
ones most used are Symantec's Ghost or Partition
Magic and Acronis's True Image. (The previous
PowerQuest Drive Image and Partition Magic was
taken over by Symantec when it bought out PowerQuest.)

Here's how to do it: Copy the partition containing
the OS to a primary partition on the 2nd HD. Include
the MBR as well in the copying, and tell the utility
to mark the destination partition "active".

Once the copying is complete, shut down the PC.
DO NOT start up the PC again until you have
disconnected the original HD - by disconnecting its
data cable or its power cable. Then start the PC.
The BIOS will automatically go to the next HD in
its boot sequence and try to boot the new HD.
The new HD will appear to have the old OS, and
it will boot up normally. Then shut down the PC.
Note that it's important to NOT let the newly-booted
OS see the old OS or it the new OS will set pointers
to system files in the old OS and the the new OS
will thereafter be dependent on the continued
presence of the old OS in order to function. (I have
this procedure simplified by having the HDs' power
on DPST toggle switches, and shutting off the
power to a HD - when its already shut down! - makes
it invisible at the next startup.)

After the new OS is booted up, it becomes an
independent clone (an "adult", if you will), and it
can thereafter be booted with the old OS visible
to it. You can now do as you want with the old HD.
If you reconnect it in place without changing the
Master/Slave setting via its jumpers or its position
on the IDE cable, you can at this point do dual-booting
by just readjusting the boot sequence in the BIOS.
Whichever HD is at the head of the BIOS's boot
sequence (i.e. boot priority list) will boot up.

If you want to dual-boot using the WinXP boot
manager, you will have to add another line to the
boot.ini file in one or both OSes. (See below
for boot.ini details.) Upon startup, the HD at
the head of the BIOS's boot sequence will be
given control. The ntldr program in its "active"
partition will look at its boot.ini file and go to the
partition that boot.ini directs it to (by either default
due to timeout or by keyboard choice by the user)
and load the OS that it finds there.

Setting boot.ini -

For a single-boot OS, the boot.ini file should look
something look like this:

[boot loader]
timeout=0
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Old WinXP" /fastdetect

This says that 0 seconds will be given for you to make up
your mind on which OS to load, which in this case is the
one option (arbitrarily called "Old WinXP" or whatever you
want) that is identical to the default. Since you won't have
time to input a preference, the default will load.

rdisk(0) means to load the system on HD at relative position 0
to the start of the boot sequence (in this case, your 1st HD).

partition(1) means to load the system found on partition 1
(i.e. the 1st partition).

WINDOWS means that the system will be found in folder
named WINDOWS under the file system root C:.

What you want in boot.ini to do dual-booting should look
like this:

[boot loader]
timeout=20
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Old WinXP in 1st HD" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINDOWS="New WinXP in 2nd HD" /fastdetect

The 2 differences are that the timeout has been increased from
zero, and a 2nd entry has been made under [operating systems]
to point to the partition containing the 2nd OS.

With the 1st HD at the start of the boot sequence and the partition
containing this boot.ini file being marked "active", this boot.ini
file will be accessed, and it says that the old WinXP is on the
1st partition of the 1st HD, and that the new WinXP is on the
1st partition of the 2nd HD. Keyboard input from you will then
select which OS boots, and you will have 20 seconds to make
up your mind - after which the default will boot if you don't choose.

Whichever OS that is loaded calls itself the "C:" drive and it
names other partitions that it sees with other letters of the
alphabet.

If you want to have either HD control the dual-booting,
you'll have to adjust the boot.ini file in the 2nd HD as well.
The only difference between the two boot.ini files is that the
HD boot sequence position in "rdisk()" is reversed - both in
the default OS entry and in the two entries for the OS options
under "[operating systems]" (to correspond to the reversal in
the BIOS's boot sequence that would cause the 2nd HD to
be selected). That is, interchange rdisk(0) and rdisk(1) so
that the meanings of "the 1st HD" and "the 2nd HD" will make
sense. (You can leave "partition()" unchanged if both OSes
reside on partition 1.)

You can keep track of which OS is running by putting
something unique on the desktop of each OS or by
setting the background differently. You can also check it
by looking at the dialog box in Disk Management -
at (rt-clk)My Computer/Manage/Disk Management.

You can go further, making multiple OS clones, each on a
primary partition on the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) HD and the
boot.ini files adjusted accordingly. I keep 4 copies on a
backup HD in a removable tray, each on one of the 4
possible primary partitions of the HD, each bootable,
for use in archiving and in case the original OS on the fixed
internal HD gets mangled or the HD fails.

Have fun.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Guest]

Thank you for your input. I currently do have RAID 0 setup. I now see the
problem with putting the OS onto the RAID array.

I am not sure exactly why but the BIOS and Partition Magic got seem to be
able to read the disk array at the track sector level. From DOS (with NTFS)
however the disks appear invisable. The MB manufacture unfortunately does not
provide a DOS compatible disk driver.

I like the idea of creating a CD/DVD bootable windows OS and will probably
tinker around with it. It seems that would be the only solution to backing up
to a firewire HD (which has not boot option)

The Windows archtecture has some real problems. I think the worst is the
registry which evectively tightly couples every program in the system. It has
gotten larger and larger with garbage since my last clean install.

I will probably buy a second HD and do a clean install with a larger C:
partition and over time start to reinstall all my programs so I have a clean
system. I will also use it for back up.

After that is working I will figure out what to do next.

RAID 0 seemed like a geood idea when I got the computer but in retrospect it
is probably not the best for OS partition.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the input.

What is the simplest way to clone the OS. I have Partition Magic which will
make an exact copy and let me extend the partition. Will FDISK /S put the MBR
onto it?

I was unclear what you meant when you said

Note that it's important to NOT let the newly-booted
OS see the old OS or it the new OS will set pointers
to system files in the old OS and the the new OS
will thereafter be dependent on the continued
presence of the old OS in order to function.

Couldn't I copy the OS partition and then use the Disk Manger to rename the
other partitions on the old disk to the same letters they were before?. (Too
bad Windows hardcodes all the device letters int the registry)

The set up you have is impressive and seems like a good way to guaratee no
long down time. I could survive a disk crash (I have all the non-program
stuff backed up on another computer) but know how long it would take to get
the system back to where it is now. I had a weird problem about year ago
where everything worked except the FAX wouldn't install. (it just terminated
with a non descript error message) After several repair installs and a month
of back and forth with MS tech support the problem remained. I am sure it was
something in the registry but even MS could tell me what the problem was. I
eventualy just did a clean install and then used the backup. It worked but
took quite a while to get everything back to the way it was.

I would like to back up my entire system, including the OS,
registry, partitions, etc. I do not want to have to reinstall
all the programs in case of restoration which takes forever
(or at least seem so). So far I've been backing up all the
nonprogram data to an another computer system.

I have researched this endlessly and can not find a clear
answer that I am sure will work without trying it.

The easiest, the quickest, and the simplest way is to
backup the entire partition (or multiple partitions) to
another HD as a bootable image. That way, if the
primary HD crashes, you can just re-boot (perhaps with
an adjustment to the BIOS's boot sequence) and you
will have a running system within minutes. There are
many imaging (or "cloning") utilities to do this, but the
ones most used are Symantec's Ghost or Partition
Magic and Acronis's True Image. (The previous
PowerQuest Drive Image and Partition Magic was
taken over by Symantec when it bought out PowerQuest.)

Here's how to do it: Copy the partition containing
the OS to a primary partition on the 2nd HD. Include
the MBR as well in the copying, and tell the utility
to mark the destination partition "active".

Once the copying is complete, shut down the PC.
DO NOT start up the PC again until you have
disconnected the original HD - by disconnecting its
data cable or its power cable. Then start the PC.
The BIOS will automatically go to the next HD in
its boot sequence and try to boot the new HD.
The new HD will appear to have the old OS, and
it will boot up normally. Then shut down the PC.
Note that it's important to NOT let the newly-booted
OS see the old OS or it the new OS will set pointers
to system files in the old OS and the the new OS
will thereafter be dependent on the continued
presence of the old OS in order to function. (I have
this procedure simplified by having the HDs' power
on DPST toggle switches, and shutting off the
power to a HD - when its already shut down! - makes
it invisible at the next startup.)

After the new OS is booted up, it becomes an
independent clone (an "adult", if you will), and it
can thereafter be booted with the old OS visible
to it. You can now do as you want with the old HD.
If you reconnect it in place without changing the
Master/Slave setting via its jumpers or its position
on the IDE cable, you can at this point do dual-booting
by just readjusting the boot sequence in the BIOS.
Whichever HD is at the head of the BIOS's boot
sequence (i.e. boot priority list) will boot up.

If you want to dual-boot using the WinXP boot
manager, you will have to add another line to the
boot.ini file in one or both OSes. (See below
for boot.ini details.) Upon startup, the HD at
the head of the BIOS's boot sequence will be
given control. The ntldr program in its "active"
partition will look at its boot.ini file and go to the
partition that boot.ini directs it to (by either default
due to timeout or by keyboard choice by the user)
and load the OS that it finds there.

Setting boot.ini -

For a single-boot OS, the boot.ini file should look
something look like this:

[boot loader]
timeout=0
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Old WinXP" /fastdetect

This says that 0 seconds will be given for you to make up
your mind on which OS to load, which in this case is the
one option (arbitrarily called "Old WinXP" or whatever you
want) that is identical to the default. Since you won't have
time to input a preference, the default will load.

rdisk(0) means to load the system on HD at relative position 0
to the start of the boot sequence (in this case, your 1st HD).

partition(1) means to load the system found on partition 1
(i.e. the 1st partition).

WINDOWS means that the system will be found in folder
named WINDOWS under the file system root C:.

What you want in boot.ini to do dual-booting should look
like this:

[boot loader]
timeout=20
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Old WinXP in 1st HD" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINDOWS="New WinXP in 2nd HD" /fastdetect

The 2 differences are that the timeout has been increased from
zero, and a 2nd entry has been made under [operating systems]
to point to the partition containing the 2nd OS.

With the 1st HD at the start of the boot sequence and the partition
containing this boot.ini file being marked "active", this boot.ini
file will be accessed, and it says that the old WinXP is on the
1st partition of the 1st HD, and that the new WinXP is on the
1st partition of the 2nd HD. Keyboard input from you will then
select which OS boots, and you will have 20 seconds to make
up your mind - after which the default will boot if you don't choose.

Whichever OS that is loaded calls itself the "C:" drive and it
names other partitions that it sees with other letters of the
alphabet.

If you want to have either HD control the dual-booting,
you'll have to adjust the boot.ini file in the 2nd HD as well.
The only difference between the two boot.ini files is that the
HD boot sequence position in "rdisk()" is reversed - both in
the default OS entry and in the two entries for the OS options
under "[operating systems]" (to correspond to the reversal in
the BIOS's boot sequence that would cause the 2nd HD to
be selected). That is, interchange rdisk(0) and rdisk(1) so
that the meanings of "the 1st HD" and "the 2nd HD" will make
sense. (You can leave "partition()" unchanged if both OSes
reside on partition 1.)

You can keep track of which OS is running by putting
something unique on the desktop of each OS or by
setting the background differently. You can also check it
by looking at the dialog box in Disk Management -
at (rt-clk)My Computer/Manage/Disk Management.

You can go further, making multiple OS clones, each on a
primary partition on the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) HD and the
boot.ini files adjusted accordingly. I keep 4 copies on a
backup HD in a removable tray, each on one of the 4
possible primary partitions of the HD, each bootable,
for use in archiving and in case the original OS on the fixed
internal HD gets mangled or the HD fails.

Have fun.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"CalMan" asked:

What is the simplest way to clone the OS.

Read my posting again. THAT'S how to do it.

I have Partition Magic which will make an exact copy
and let me extend the partition.

If Partition Magic asks "Copy the MBR?", answer "Y".
I don't know if it does, although Ghost 9.0 and
Powerquest's Drive Image 7.0 do.

Will FDISK /S put the MBR onto it?

FIXMBR would probably be more likely to do it than FDISK.

I was unclear what you meant when you said

Note that it's important to NOT let the newly-booted
OS see the old OS or it the new OS will set pointers
to system files in the old OS and the the new OS
will thereafter be dependent on the continued
presence of the old OS in order to function.

Couldn't I copy the OS partition and then use the Disk Manger
to rename the other partitions on the old disk to the same
letters they were before?. (Too bad Windows hardcodes
all the device letters int the registry)

The problem is not the naming of the drives. That happens
dynamically each time the OS is started. What you're dealing
with after a cloning is likely Microsoft's attempt to thwart
multiple bootable copies of the same OS in the same PC
by making "twins" into "siamese twins" - in effect one OS.
And the way to prevent that from happening is to NOT let the
clone see the "parent" when the clone is started for the 1st
time. You can do that by removing the "parent" from the PC
or by disconnecting the data or the power cable (or both) from
the "parent" while the clone is booted for the 1st time. Thereafter,
upon subsequent boots of the clone, it's alright for the clone
to see the "parent" because by then it will have set itself up as
an independent OS.

*TimDaniels*