Averaging multiple scans

D

David Blanchard

Not true in my case. I still shoot a great deal of Kodachrome 64.
Old habits die hard...

In that case, if you can afford it, you should definitely look into
newer Nikon models (if you want to stick with Nikon). From what I
understand, they don't do Kodachrome perfectly (there still seem a
slight blue cast) but a whole lot better (no dark scans anymore).[/QUOTE]


I could probably afford a new scanner but I have an older computer
(1997 vintage) that supports SCSI. I have a Firewire/USB1 PCI card,
but many scanners explicitly state that they require built-in support,
not PCI support. So until I buy a new computer (very unlikely since
I'm quite happy with what I already have [1] ), I'll also have to
remain with a SCSI-based scanner (i.e., the LS-2000).

In any case, the bluish cast is not much of an issue for me anymore since
I have learned a few tricks for reducing it -- either through analog gain
(or reduction) or modifying the curves. Works well enough...

-db-

[1] Given a choice between upgrading computers or upgrading my ski and mtn
bikes, I'll opt for the latter ;-)
 
D

David Blanchard

Stephen Rogers said:
...the newer Nikons
have been improved in this respect. I have a Nikon Coolscan V ED and
it handles Kodachrome superbly. There is a "but" however. The blue
cast seems entirely due to the NikonScan 4 software and absolutely not
due to the scanner itself. If I use Nikon Scan to scan Kodachrome, I
get vastly better results by setting its film type to Positive rather
than Kodachrome and setting analogue gain as follows:
R 0.5
G -0.33
B -0.6

Master anywhere between -0.3 and +0.3 depending on whether highlight
or shadow is more important.

These are similar to the numbers I use except that I rarely modify the
green channel. Will try these values on a few of my more troublesome
slides and see what happens.
Those analogue gain settings virtually eliminate the blue cast. Using
the Positive setting instead of Kodachrome also has the advantage that

There is no Kodachrome setting in NikonScan3.x I think that was an
addition in later versions. I'm currently at the highest version
that supports the LS-2000 (at least that's what I believe based on
the Nikon web site).

can also say that VueScan produces a pretty well perfect colour
balance on Kodachrome (much better than NikonScan), using the VueScan
Kodachrome setting.

I also use VueScan. I've found that VS is better than NS on some of
my slides and that NS is better than VS on others. Seems to be tied
to the color palette of the slide.

One problem is that development of Vuescan for Mac OS9 has been halted
so that if I want upgraded versions, I would have to upgrade my Mac
to OS X (not possible with the current hardware that I use).

So I would say the Coolscan itself is close to perfect, especially as
it seems to generate almost no noise in dark areas of slides (unless
you go looking for it by steepening the curve on the low luminosity
part of the image and view at full resolution. Then you sometimes see
a tiny amount of noise but so what?).

I've already scanned almost all of my "easy" slides. All that remain
are the difficult slides or redoing those that did not scan well the
first time around. Since the number of slides that I am scanning now
is small, I can afford the time to do multi-pass scanning (i.e., up to
16x with the LS-2000). This makes a large difference in the noise in
the dark areas.

-db-
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

David said:
There is no Kodachrome setting in NikonScan3.x

Oh yes there is - I am looking at it right now!
I think that was an
addition in later versions. I'm currently at the highest version
that supports the LS-2000 (at least that's what I believe based on
the Nikon web site).

There is no Kodachrome setting for the LS-2000 (or the LS-30), which is
the crux of Don's previous Gb of posts. ;-)
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

David said:
I could probably afford a new scanner but I have an older computer
(1997 vintage) that supports SCSI. I have a Firewire/USB1 PCI card,
but many scanners explicitly state that they require built-in support,
not PCI support.

Possibly, but upgrading through the same line does not incur that
restriction. Indeed, the LS-4000 was supplied with a Firewire card.
They do, however require an operating system capable of supporting
Firewire or USB correctly, which means a minimum of W98SE and that may
restrict your options.
 
D

David Blanchard

Kennedy McEwen said:
When scanned under the Kodachrome setting of either NS3.1.2 or NS4.01, I
do not find any blue cast at all


Are you certain that there is a Kodachrome option in NS3.1.2? I ask because
I do not have that option in NS3.1.2 with the LS-2000. It may only be
activated for newer scanners. I seem to recall that this issue was
discussed once before...

-db-
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

David said:
Are you certain that there is a Kodachrome option in NS3.1.2?

Yes - I have used both, and am back at NS3.1.2 because it is faster than
NS4.01, although Nikon seem unable to explain why.
I ask because
I do not have that option in NS3.1.2 with the LS-2000.

There's your answer - the Kodachrome option is not available with that
earlier generation of scanners, for the reasons I have explained in this
and another earlier thread.
 
D

David Blanchard

Kennedy McEwen said:
Possibly, but upgrading through the same line does not incur that
restriction. Indeed, the LS-4000 was supplied with a Firewire card.
They do, however require an operating system capable of supporting
Firewire or USB correctly, which means a minimum of W98SE and that may
restrict your options.

I'm running Mac OS 9.1 on an upgraded PowerMac 7300 (including larger
internal SCSI drive, additional RAM, CPU upgrade to a G3). My hardware
supports PCI 2.0 (not 2.1) so I had to search for a Firewire/USB card
that would work (Sonnet Tango). OS 9.1 supports Firewire and USB
although I've never added a Firewire device. I have an Epson USB1
printer that works just dandy with the PCI card and the OS.

So...maybe...I can upgrade to one of the Firewire series scanners from
Nikon. I've noticed that their USB scanners are USB2. If it will
default backwards to run at USB1 then that might work as well...if slowly.

-db-
 
D

Don

You are looking for an LS-30 equivalent of the "Kodachrome" setting on
and LS-40/50 or LS-4000/5000. Stephen is telling you that not only
doesn't that work (it leaves a blue cast) but that his AG settings on
the "Positive" setting give better results - something which is
completely the opposite of what you have been looking for and which does
not correlate with any of the comparative "Kodachrome" scans which you
have been shown.

This is based on a sample of 1 (the images you sent me - the first
lot) so it's to be taken with a boulder or salt...

With that caveat out of the way, the main difference between LS-40/50
(and friends) and my LS-30 seems to me to be the darkness of my scans.
The blue cast appears to be very similar in both (relatively speaking)
in the sense that there is a (severe) lack of red and (over) abundance
of blue.
I am not assuming anything of the sort! I am assuming that both of you
are attempting to obtain a scanned image which has an equivalent density
to the original slide. Stephen quotes a variance of +/-0.3EV to achieve
this, whilst you quote a variance of +/-0.5EV. However you both quote
an average difference which is of the order 2.1EV - a difference which
simply cannot be bridged by the variances you both quote.

Not quite sure I follow that. If I understand you correctly the
variances (+/-0.3EV and +/-0.5EV) refer to the difference in our
individual channel corrections, while average difference refers to
master settings (2.1EV) i.e. the difference in "darkness". Is that
right?

Now, again, if I understand correctly, you're saying that such major
average difference (2.1EV) is (theoretically?) inconsistent with the
variance (+/-0.3EV and +/-0.5EV). Is that right?

I did some tests whereby I varied the master AG gain but this did not
affect the ratio of individual channel AG adjustment (let's just say I
was not able to spot any difference). Not knowing the theory I had to
arrive at this empirically and my worry was that boosting master AG
would unravel everything and affect the ratio of individual RGB
channels - and upset the balance - but apparently it doesn't.
Too easy - except it ignores the fact that your scanner works fine with
E-6 type slides, negatives and monochrome film. Blaming your scanner
implies that it somehow magically detects your Kodachrome slides from
other media and then adjusts its own exposure *equally* on all 3
channels to achieve a 1.3EV error. If the firmware is that smart you
really ought to spend all the time you have disassembling it, because
the algorithm could win you a fortune at the races!

Well, it was your explanation that different LEDs may have different
chromatic responses and that's why the LEDs in my scanner may not be
able to react to Kodachrome as they do to other slides or negatives,
or indeed why LEDs in other scanners may react differently to KC.

Stephen's results do confirm there are differences between LEDs (he
doesn't need to boost master AG as much as I do) but there are also
similarities (in terms of color balance) which is what I have been
focusing on.

BTW, in my particular case this is all somewhat academic because I
have moved on to other avenues and methods but it's very interesting
theoretically.

Don.
 
D

Don

There is no Kodachrome setting for the LS-2000 (or the LS-30), which is
the crux of Don's previous Gb of posts. ;-)

Which you promptly followed with terabytes of responses... ;o)

Don.
 
D

Don

I could probably afford a new scanner but I have an older computer
(1997 vintage) that supports SCSI. I have a Firewire/USB1 PCI card,
but many scanners explicitly state that they require built-in support,
not PCI support. So until I buy a new computer (very unlikely since
I'm quite happy with what I already have [1] ), I'll also have to
remain with a SCSI-based scanner (i.e., the LS-2000).

I'm using a notebook for all my work (the 66 MHz desktop is just a
historical curiosity while my old notebook doesn't have enough disk
space).

So, connecting LS-30 to the notebook was also a potential problem. I
used to use my docking station which has SCSI until it gave up. Now I
use a SCSI PCMCIA card and that works just fine.

I also have a USB2 PCMCIA card because my notebook only has 1.1. and I
use that for the flatbed which is USB only.

The reason I mention all this is that in spite of scanners explicitly
stating built-in USB2 support as a requirement I have had no problems
with PCMCIA and that's far more complicated to integrate into the OS
than PCI (well, not really, but for "historical" reasons).

So, I think you would probably be OK with a PCI card.
[1] Given a choice between upgrading computers or upgrading my ski and mtn
bikes, I'll opt for the latter ;-)

Which reminds me, in addition to a new scanner I also need a new bike!
;o)

Don.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Don said:
This is based on a sample of 1 (the images you sent me - the first
lot) so it's to be taken with a boulder or salt...
Actually I was referring to the scans which Rafe Bustin and others
posted in the previous thread, but feel free to add my own to that same
group - hardly a "sample of 1".
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Don said:
Which you promptly followed with terabytes of responses... ;o)
Was it Cicero who said "I did not have enough time to write a short
reply"?
 
D

David Blanchard

There's your answer - the Kodachrome option is not available with that
earlier generation of scanners, for the reasons I have explained in this
and another earlier thread.

Must have missed that portion of the thread.
Thanks for the clarification on the Kodachrome option.

-db-
 
D

Don

Actually I was referring to the scans which Rafe Bustin and others
posted in the previous thread, but feel free to add my own to that same
group - hardly a "sample of 1".

No, no, it was my own statement which was based on a sample of 1. I
wanted to make that clear up front.

I guess it didn't work... ;o) People in newsgroups don't usually
expect a balanced view.

Don.
 
D

Don

Was it Cicero who said "I did not have enough time to write a short
reply"?

In the similar vain I always attributed "I'm not rich enough to buy
cheap things" to the British. So I plunged for an LS-30 all those
years ago... ;o)

Anyway, I'm not complaining, quite the contrary! Be as verbose as you
want! I learned a lot.

Don.
 
R

Roger Halstead

I'm running Mac OS 9.1 on an upgraded PowerMac 7300 (including larger
internal SCSI drive, additional RAM, CPU upgrade to a G3). My hardware
supports PCI 2.0 (not 2.1) so I had to search for a Firewire/USB card
that would work (Sonnet Tango). OS 9.1 supports Firewire and USB
although I've never added a Firewire device. I have an Epson USB1
printer that works just dandy with the PCI card and the OS.

So...maybe...I can upgrade to one of the Firewire series scanners from
Nikon. I've noticed that their USB scanners are USB2. If it will
default backwards to run at USB1 then that might work as well...if slowly.

If you are thinking LS 5000ED type you really need one Gig of RAM and
at least a 2 Gig processor. The images are 55.6 Megs each at 4000
dpi. You can get by with less memory if you don't do anything else
while scanning and a slower CPU if you are not in a hurry while
processing the large images.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
 

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