Athlon 64 3200+ problem

J

jw

I have a MACHSPEED K8M8MSR2-VC socket 754 MOBO with a Athlon 64 3200+
CPU and 1.5G DDR.

Suddenly it will not start up. It gets as far as completing memory
check and freezes. I cannot enter the BIOS.

I have tried swapping out RAM, video card, keyboard and mouse.

I have been satisfied with this combo, and I am thinking of staying
with it. My first question to you guys is - do you think I should?

If so, I doubt both the CPU and MOBO both failed. So, it might
behoove me to replace and try one, and if that fails, then the other.

In your opinion, what is more likely the cause of this demise?
The MOBO or CPU? Neither?

Thanks

Duke
 
P

Paul

I have a MACHSPEED K8M8MSR2-VC socket 754 MOBO with a Athlon 64 3200+
CPU and 1.5G DDR.

Suddenly it will not start up. It gets as far as completing memory
check and freezes. I cannot enter the BIOS.

I have tried swapping out RAM, video card, keyboard and mouse.

I have been satisfied with this combo, and I am thinking of staying
with it. My first question to you guys is - do you think I should?

If so, I doubt both the CPU and MOBO both failed. So, it might
behoove me to replace and try one, and if that fails, then the other.

In your opinion, what is more likely the cause of this demise?
The MOBO or CPU? Neither?

Thanks

Duke

Chances are, it is related to the motherboard, rather than the processor.
Only if you've done some harm to the processor, would I suspect the
processor (put a memory stick in backwards, zap it with an eletrostatic
discharge, fail to turn off the PSU at the back while moving memory
sticks, and so on).

http://mach-speed.net/support/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=185&Itemid=44

http://www.machspeed.com/manuals/K8M8MSR1A.zip

Try the board with one stick of RAM. Move the RAM from slot to slot,
and test each slot. See if you can start it, by a slot change.

The fact that you can see the screen, means a lot of it is working.

Does it work with internal VGA graphics only, and AGP video card
unplugged ?

A board may not start, if memory has bad locations down in the
640K region. But it may survive if memory is bad elsewhere. Since
you have at least two sticks, you have a number of experiments
you can try. Turn off the PSU at the back, before making any
hardware changes.

Machspeed/Jetway probably doesn't make those boards any more,
so to replace it, you'd be hoping for a cache of stock somewhere.

Paul
 
J

jw

Chances are, it is related to the motherboard, rather than the processor.
Only if you've done some harm to the processor, would I suspect the
processor (put a memory stick in backwards, zap it with an eletrostatic
discharge, fail to turn off the PSU at the back while moving memory
sticks, and so on).

http://mach-speed.net/support/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=185&Itemid=44

http://www.machspeed.com/manuals/K8M8MSR1A.zip

Try the board with one stick of RAM. Move the RAM from slot to slot,
and test each slot. See if you can start it, by a slot change.

I tried each of the two sticks singly and switched with same result. I
had some smaller spare DDRs and they showed same result. So I
conclude that the problem is not RAM-related. I hope I am right on
that.
The fact that you can see the screen, means a lot of it is working.

Does it work with internal VGA graphics only, and AGP video card
unplugged ?

No. I pulled the AGP card and used the on-board video - same result.
A board may not start, if memory has bad locations down in the
640K region. But it may survive if memory is bad elsewhere. Since
you have at least two sticks, you have a number of experiments
you can try.

I think I tried all combos. I'll do it again.
Turn off the PSU at the back, before making any
hardware changes.

Machspeed/Jetway probably doesn't make those boards any more,
so to replace it, you'd be hoping for a cache of stock somewhere.

Yes - I discovered that after my post. I would have to buy a
substitute in order to use same CPU - and I guess I can do that -
there seems to be a few socket 754 MOBOs still out there.
MSI MS-6741 and PCCHIPS M861G, for example.


Thanks for your response.
 
J

jw

Chances are, it is related to the motherboard, rather than the processor.
Only if you've done some harm to the processor, would I suspect the
processor (put a memory stick in backwards, zap it with an eletrostatic
discharge, fail to turn off the PSU at the back while moving memory
sticks, and so on).

http://mach-speed.net/support/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=185&Itemid=44

http://www.machspeed.com/manuals/K8M8MSR1A.zip

Try the board with one stick of RAM. Move the RAM from slot to slot,
and test each slot. See if you can start it, by a slot change.

The fact that you can see the screen, means a lot of it is working.

Does it work with internal VGA graphics only, and AGP video card
unplugged ?

A board may not start, if memory has bad locations down in the
640K region. But it may survive if memory is bad elsewhere. Since
you have at least two sticks, you have a number of experiments
you can try. Turn off the PSU at the back, before making any
hardware changes.

Machspeed/Jetway probably doesn't make those boards any more,
so to replace it, you'd be hoping for a cache of stock somewhere.

Paul


It turns out that I have:

DDR400 128MB
DDR400 256MB
DDR333 .5GB
DDR400 1GB

The boatd has two slots.

I tried each of the DDRs singly in each slot, and got same result.
Thanks
Duke
 
M

~misfit~

Somewhere said:
I have a MACHSPEED K8M8MSR2-VC socket 754 MOBO with a Athlon 64 3200+
CPU and 1.5G DDR.

Suddenly it will not start up. It gets as far as completing memory
check and freezes. I cannot enter the BIOS.

I have tried swapping out RAM, video card, keyboard and mouse.

I have been satisfied with this combo, and I am thinking of staying
with it. My first question to you guys is - do you think I should?

If so, I doubt both the CPU and MOBO both failed. So, it might
behoove me to replace and try one, and if that fails, then the other.

In your opinion, what is more likely the cause of this demise?
The MOBO or CPU? Neither?

Hi Duke,

That's a fairly budget motherboard, if the PSU is in the same price-range I
would consider checking it with a different one. I assume that you've
checked the capacitors on the motherboard for signs of swelling, leaking or
'lifting off their plugs'?

Have you tried re-setting the CMOS? (Either jumper by the battery or remove
the battery for a minute.)

Good luck,
 
J

jw

Hi Duke,

That's a fairly budget motherboard, if the PSU is in the same price-range I
would consider checking it with a different one.

What I know of the CPU is that it is a AMD Athlon 64 3200+
I assume that you've
checked the capacitors on the motherboard for signs of swelling, leaking or
'lifting off their plugs'?

I didn't see any.
Have you tried re-setting the CMOS? (Either jumper by the battery or remove
the battery for a minute.)

No but I will.
Good luck,

Thanks

Duke
 
J

jw

Have you tried re-setting the CMOS? (Either jumper by the battery or remove
the battery for a minute.)

Good luck,

I did that - had no effect.

One interesting thing - This machine is connected to a KVM as is one
other machine. Have been for some time.

I notice that when the failing machine freezes after memory checking,
the KVM (which is selecting that machine) is locked and I cannot
switch the KVM to the second machine until I turn the failing first
machine off. Before you ask - I tried connecting up the failing
machine 'stand alone'. That is, I connected it by itself to a mouse,
keyboard, and monitor. Failed same way. Yet I have to wonder if
there is some indicative here.

Duke
 
J

jw

That's a fairly budget motherboard, if the PSU is in the same price-range I
would consider checking it with a different one.

Hmmm. What would you suggest amongst this bewildering world of
choices? I am not a gamer. I tried a ASUS M3A78-CM mobo with an AMD
Phenom 9950 2.6 Quad CPU with 2GB DDR2 a while back in another machine
and was NOT impressed.

Thanks again

Duke
 
P

Paul

Hmmm. What would you suggest amongst this bewildering world of
choices? I am not a gamer. I tried a ASUS M3A78-CM mobo with an AMD
Phenom 9950 2.6 Quad CPU with 2GB DDR2 a while back in another machine
and was NOT impressed.

Thanks again

Duke

You can get an Intel E5300 for $80. It is a dual core at 2.6GHz, with
a relatively small cache. Similar to the E4700 I have in my
current machine. Doesn't use much power.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116074&Tpk=e5300

You could either shoot for something with built-in graphics like
this one, where you really intended to stick with the build-in only.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128363

Or, you could try something with a good reputation, but pretty
cheesy graphics performance (for movie playback), something like
this. This is only $65, and you can still plunk a PCI Express x16
video card in it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128388

It all depends what you expect to get from the machine. Why wasn't
the 9950 impressive ? What was wrong with it ? With AMD, sometimes
it needs a little tuneup (CPU driver, Update4 etc).

Paul
 
J

jw

You can get an Intel E5300 for $80. It is a dual core at 2.6GHz, with
a relatively small cache. Similar to the E4700 I have in my
current machine. Doesn't use much power.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116074&Tpk=e5300

You could either shoot for something with built-in graphics like
this one, where you really intended to stick with the build-in only.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128363

Or, you could try something with a good reputation, but pretty
cheesy graphics performance (for movie playback), something like
this. This is only $65, and you can still plunk a PCI Express x16
video card in it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128388

It all depends what you expect to get from the machine. Why wasn't
the 9950 impressive ? What was wrong with it ? With AMD, sometimes
it needs a little tuneup (CPU driver, Update4 etc).

Paul

Until it broke, I have felt that this Machspeed was always at least as
fast as the ASUS, even with its more DDR (I erred in that I really
have 4GB DDR 2 although XP SP3 doesn't use all of it). The power-up
always takes much longer and too often hangs at the beginning,
requiring me to shut off and restart power once or twice. It happened
this AM twice. I have even increased my PSU to 600W hoping that would
improve things. It didn't, except it no longer burns up the PSU (It
did it twice on a 400W PSU), The BIOS continually forgets my
settings. I use a dual-boot setup and sometimes it boots up the
wrong hard drive first because the BIOS boot order is changed on me. I
use one SATA hard drive and one PATA. The clock sometimes loses an
hour or two and once was a complete day off.

The Machspeed just plugged along with minimum problems during boot. It
used dual-boot also (with two PATA hard drives). Its clock never
erred. Of course now it is deadd.

I am willing to step things up with a faster, more state of the art
MOBO/CPU combo, but I would like to do better this time - with
reasonable cost though.

Thanks for your interests.

Duke
 
J

jw

You can get an Intel E5300 for $80. It is a dual core at 2.6GHz, with
a relatively small cache. Similar to the E4700 I have in my
current machine. Doesn't use much power.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116074&Tpk=e5300

You could either shoot for something with built-in graphics like
this one, where you really intended to stick with the build-in only.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128363

Or, you could try something with a good reputation, but pretty
cheesy graphics performance (for movie playback), something like
this. This is only $65, and you can still plunk a PCI Express x16
video card in it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128388

It all depends what you expect to get from the machine. Why wasn't
the 9950 impressive ? What was wrong with it ? With AMD, sometimes
it needs a little tuneup (CPU driver, Update4 etc).

Paul

One additional -

I have noticed that most of the newer MOBOs only have one PATA header.
I would have to buy at least one new SATA drive, maybe more. Alas,
more expense.

Duke
 
P

Paul

Until it broke, I have felt that this Machspeed was always at least as
fast as the ASUS, even with its more DDR (I erred in that I really
have 4GB DDR 2 although XP SP3 doesn't use all of it). The power-up
always takes much longer and too often hangs at the beginning,
requiring me to shut off and restart power once or twice. It happened
this AM twice. I have even increased my PSU to 600W hoping that would
improve things. It didn't, except it no longer burns up the PSU (It
did it twice on a 400W PSU), The BIOS continually forgets my
settings. I use a dual-boot setup and sometimes it boots up the
wrong hard drive first because the BIOS boot order is changed on me. I
use one SATA hard drive and one PATA. The clock sometimes loses an
hour or two and once was a complete day off.

The Machspeed just plugged along with minimum problems during boot. It
used dual-boot also (with two PATA hard drives). Its clock never
erred. Of course now it is deadd.

I am willing to step things up with a faster, more state of the art
MOBO/CPU combo, but I would like to do better this time - with
reasonable cost though.

Thanks for your interests.

Duke

When the BIOS starts, a quad is only going to have one thread of
execution. So three cores take a snooze during the BIOS startup.
The extra "power", cannot make it start faster.

One reason for BIOS settings to return to defaults (or make
unannounced changes), is a BIOS crash, followed by recovery.
The recovery policy varies from board to board. Some boards
only mess around with the clock speed setting, and the core clock
may get dropped in value (to nominal, or below nominal). But
other boards reset everything, and that can mess up the boot
order. I had one Asus board, that was a pain ih that respect.
When I didn't make any changes to it though, generally it
behaved itself. But during overclocking, I was going into the
BIOS, over and over again, to restore my custom settings.
Some brands of motherboards, have the ultimate fix for that - they
store "profiles" that can be restored in one shot.

A clock losing an exact hour or two, can be due to time zone
differences between OSes. I used to dual boot Win2K and Linux
on the previous computer, and occasionally found the time off
by an hour. I never did determine the exact conditions to make
it happen. I might be working along, look at the clock and
go "hey, that isn't right". So I generally wouldn't notice it
until much later.

But being off by a whole day, that is harder to explain.
I don't think I could cook up an answer for that one.
(You could blame it on broken carry logic, but chances are,
it isn't a solid fault, and only happens some times.)

When you have 4GB of RAM, the memory test is going to take
a few seconds longer. If you still had the system put together,
you could try cutting the quantity of RAM in half, and see if
the system starts faster. If you don't find the BIOS memory
test to be essential, you might even turn it off.

Other ways to speed up startup, would be to set unused
disk interface ports to "None" instead of "Auto", so the
BIOS doesn't wait for the port with no disk, to become
ready. I don't bother with stuff like that - I'd probably
forget I changed it, and then be sitting there scratching
my head, trying to figure out why the disk is not being
detected.

Paul
 
P

Paul

One additional -

I have noticed that most of the newer MOBOs only have one PATA header.
I would have to buy at least one new SATA drive, maybe more. Alas,
more expense.

Duke

If you want weird, I can do weird :)

This is my motherboard, the Asrock 4CoreDual-SATA2. It is a
"transition" board, in the sense that it is equipped with a
variety of legacy stuff. I use an AGP video card in it, for
example. It can take DDR or DDR2 RAM. It has a limit as to
how much RAM it can handle (2x1GB with stability, 2x2GB without
stability). It can handle FSB800 or FSB1066 Intel processors
(but check the list of tested processors, because they don't
waste a lot of energy at Asrock, keeping the BIOS up to date).
You can't stick an E8400 in it, because that is an FSB1333
processor. The chipset can't go that fast and be stable.
FSB1066 is really the practical limit.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157115

The BIOS is the single worst feature of the board. Basically,
it works fine when everything is "Auto" and runs at nominal
speed. EIST is broken (but can be made to work, by downloading
a hacked BIOS from Germany).

One reason I cannot recommend it, is it is too much of a
"hackers" board. It needs to much "assistance", to make
something good out of it. But if you want familiar legacy
interfaces, it has those.

If has a PCI Express video card slot, but even that has
its peculiarities. The slot is x4 speed (1GB/sec), and
not all video cards start properly in it. The AGP 8X
slot works better.

A motherboard with one of the Intel chipsets, is going
to have a better BIOS, and fewer issues. My board requires
a lot of research, to find answers. If it wasn't for the
guys in Germany, I'd still be having problems. To overclock,
I needed my trusty soldering iron, to add "features" to the
board. (I have a BSEL mod, to overclock, and a Vcore boost,
to help the processor at higher speeds.)

The BIOS is not even capable of programming the clock generator
chip properly. The Asrock staff have had plenty of time to fix
it, but it is still broken. Again, it works fine in "Auto",
so the "Plug and Play" thing works. But any attempt to alter
settings related to clocks, can result in a crash in the BIOS.
At least the board recovers well from crashes - you press the
reset button, three times in a row, and it'll reset the BIOS
settings.

So I gently steer people away from the board.

It has two IDE connectors. And two fully working SATA connectors.
So can take a total of six drives. Two IDE drives are my
current "base" system, with a SATA plugged in occasionally
for backups or test installs.

There are IDE to SATA adapters you can get, but that
is not necessarily the cheapest way to solve it. You
could get an add-in card, with whatever ports you want
on it, and that could be cheaper. Neither solution
comes with iron-clad guarantees.

Paul
 
J

jw

This is my motherboard, the Asrock 4CoreDual-SATA2. It is a
"transition" board, in the sense that it is equipped with a
variety of legacy stuff. I use an AGP video card in it, for
example. It can take DDR or DDR2 RAM. It has a limit as to
how much RAM it can handle (2x1GB with stability, 2x2GB without
stability). It can handle FSB800 or FSB1066 Intel processors
(but check the list of tested processors, because they don't
waste a lot of energy at Asrock, keeping the BIOS up to date).
You can't stick an E8400 in it, because that is an FSB1333
processor. The chipset can't go that fast and be stable.
FSB1066 is really the practical limit.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157115

The BIOS is the single worst feature of the board. Basically,
it works fine when everything is "Auto" and runs at nominal
speed. EIST is broken (but can be made to work, by downloading
a hacked BIOS from Germany).

One reason I cannot recommend it, is it is too much of a
"hackers" board. It needs to much "assistance", to make
something good out of it. But if you want familiar legacy
interfaces, it has those.

If has a PCI Express video card slot, but even that has
its peculiarities. The slot is x4 speed (1GB/sec), and
not all video cards start properly in it. The AGP 8X
slot works better.

A motherboard with one of the Intel chipsets, is going
to have a better BIOS, and fewer issues. My board requires
a lot of research, to find answers. If it wasn't for the
guys in Germany, I'd still be having problems. To overclock,
I needed my trusty soldering iron, to add "features" to the
board. (I have a BSEL mod, to overclock, and a Vcore boost,
to help the processor at higher speeds.)

The BIOS is not even capable of programming the clock generator
chip properly. The Asrock staff have had plenty of time to fix
it, but it is still broken. Again, it works fine in "Auto",
so the "Plug and Play" thing works. But any attempt to alter
settings related to clocks, can result in a crash in the BIOS.
At least the board recovers well from crashes - you press the
reset button, three times in a row, and it'll reset the BIOS
settings.

So I gently steer people away from the board.

Duly steered.
It has two IDE connectors. And two fully working SATA connectors.
So can take a total of six drives. Two IDE drives are my
current "base" system, with a SATA plugged in occasionally
for backups or test installs.

There are IDE to SATA adapters you can get, but that
is not necessarily the cheapest way to solve it. You
could get an add-in card, with whatever ports you want
on it, and that could be cheaper. Neither solution
comes with iron-clad guarantees.

Paul

What do you think about the Gigabyte GA-MA78GPM-UD2H motherboard?
Maybe paired with a Phenom 9650 2.3 and 2GB DDR2 (1066)?
Newegg prices this out at 89.99+119,99+54.99 resp.

Thanks
Duke
 
J

jw

I don't want to spoil your fun. I wish I understood what you
were trying to do. What your objectives were.

Did you keep any of the components from your last build (9950), or
did you return them ?

You have a good memory. I told you I have two machines, or at least I
did have before this blowup. The remaining machine indeed is the
9950. It has a Phenom X4 9950 (CB-AMP995) CPU on a ASUS M3A78CM
motherboard with 4GB PC6499 DDR2. As I said earlier in this thread, I
have not been happy with this configuration.
Are you trying to build a "cheap and performing system",
mainly for single threaded applications ? Are you trying
to build a box for video editing, where the editor can
use multiple cores during rendering ?

Some programs, would get most of their benefit, from
a single core running as fast as possible. Fewer programs,
are multithreaded, and a multicore chip can blow away
the single core in that case. Many benchmarks you might
find in the Tomshardware charts, are going to emphasize the
multithreaded test case.

I can illustrate with my own choice. I bought a 2.6Ghz Core2
Duo. It isn't the fastest chip (because if you buy faster
off the shelf, you pay too much for it). You can overclock
chips, depending on how far an individual chip can be pushed.
So I could buy a 2.6GHz processor, and overclock to 3GHz.
I might pay $80 for the 2.6GHz processor, and through overclocking,
end up with the same performance as the $160 product.

The last application I used, that actually used the two cores flat
out, was Windows Movie Maker. A lot of the other stuff I do
(web browsing and the like), doesn't need four cores. It
would be "1.x" cores, with perhaps some benefit from a
second core. I can tell you though, while waiting for Windows
Movie Maker to finish outputting my sample movie, I'd pay
for a quad core to speed that up. I'm not seriously interested
in video, so no quad for me :)


If you know that the majority of your software is multithreaded,
or if you know you'll have a particular application running
in the background all the time (i.e. using a core all to itself
in effect), then more cores would help. Based on your own software
mix, you can choose a lower speed quad, compared to a higher speed
dual.

I checked the Newegg reviews, in the entry for the 9650 2.3GHz, and one
of the reviewers suggested this instead.

AMD Phenom II X2 550 Black Edition Callisto 3.1GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache
6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 80W Dual-Core Processor $103

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16819103680

It is a four core processor, where two of the cores have tested good.
Depending on the motherboard and BIOS features, you can unlock
the other two cores. To me, even if the four cores did not all
work flawlessly, there is still the advantage of a dual running
at 3.1GHz or higher (as overclocking allows). So that is a product
you could play with, and get a little more out of it.

The 550 is in the list here, supported by BIOS F3.

http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Support/Motherboard/CPUSupport_Model.aspx?ProductID=3016

On the memory front, the AMD processors are limited to two slots
when pushing memory at the highest speeds. So if I was shopping
for memory, I'd be aiming for a two stick configuration as my final
configuration.

Oh I planned to use two 1GB sticks this time.

Thanks

Duke
 
J

jw

Generally one doesn't buy a board for performance, they buy
something in a decent brand like Asus instead of Machspeed
so it doesn't prematurely fail (and other factors like
better bios support to resolve incompatibilities).




It seems you have another problem unrelated, since other
people don't have these problems. Perhaps a bad battery
and/or either poor quality junk PSU or the PSU is simply
defective or otherwise failed.

I blew two 400W PSUs before I opted for a 600W several months ago. It
has not failed that way since. I'll replace the battery first chance
I get.

Most motherboards don't have the issues you saw with that
one.

I would hope not.
Personally I prefer Intel or nVidia chipsets and
either Gigabyte, Intel, or Asus brands. On an extreme
budget then Foxconn or Asrock, but never generic relabels
like Machspeed nor their typical manufacturer, PCChips/ECS.
Some brands like MSI or Biostar seem hit-or-miss to me,
quirky products which work fine in some cases and are dead
or defective in others.

People tell me 'stick with Intel'.
I think I will compare the price of an Intel combo against the
Gigabyte combo (MA78GPM and Phenom 9650) I picked and described
earlier.
Overall the central theme is you can pay for the latest
tech, and/or you can pay for better quality board components
and bios fine-tuning and updates, or gamble on failure or
bugs with the lowest end boards.

One tip with dual-booting many modern boards - you don't
have to depend on what order the bios was supposed to use,
just hit <F8> right before the bios begins to boot from a
drive and a boot menu will pop up where you can easily pick
from any bootable volume detected, whether it be a HDD, DVD,
USB, etc.


By golly you are right. I tried it and it worked. I was using the
boot.ini technique which of course is dependent on the BIOS drive
order. F8 should always work. Thanks

Duke
 
P

pimpom

By golly you are right. I tried it and it worked. I was using
the
boot.ini technique which of course is dependent on the BIOS
drive
order. F8 should always work. Thanks

It's not always F8. I've also known boards that use F9, F11 and
F12 to call up the boot option menu.
 
M

~misfit~

Somewhere on teh intarwebs kony wrote:
[snippage]
It seems you have another problem unrelated, since other
people don't have these problems. Perhaps a bad battery
and/or either poor quality junk PSU or the PSU is simply
defective or otherwise failed.

Makes me wonder about dirty mains power, either undervoltage or spikes
etc...
 

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