Anyone know a consumer data recovery service please?

[J. Clarke]

: I can live with the idea of two backup drives. Somehow, using one
: medium prone to failure to backup another medium as prone to failure
: doesn't quite compute with me. Especially when using IBM/Hitachi drives
: or external Maxtor devices. But two Seagates - great.

Having seen two Seagates start to fail in the last few months alone, I
would not put any more faith in them than in any other manufacturer's
drives. To be fair, though, unlike the WD and IBM drives I've had
die, the Seagates (in friends' computers) were at least alive and I
could retrive data from them, even though they were failing
diagnostics and making the classic "dying drive" sounds...

There's a common misconception that length of warranty is somehow related to
quality of product. If that were the case then a Hyundai would be better
built than a Rolls. The length of the warranty is mostly a marketing
consideration--the cost of warranty repairs is built into the price of the
product--it doesn't come out of the manufacturer's pocket--they charge more
for the same product with a longer warranty unless they're suffering from
an image problem that they're willing to cut margins to overcome.

: Trouble is, many
: people who use hard drives as their backup targets tend not to accept
: that their backups are failsafe.

Yeah, true enough.

?? Perhaps he meant "tend not to accept that their backups are _not_
failsafe"? Although "failsafe" is often misused and one of my pet peeves.
"Failsafe" means that you know the failure modes and when failure occurs
then nothing horrible happens, not that something can't fail.

 

[Rod Speed]

Modern hard drives are amazingly reliable but I imagine that my laptop
could be stolen any day, and my deskop system could suffer a hard disk
crash any night and backup my data accordingly.

Whenever someone asks me what the most reliable hard disk is I respond
"what difference does it make ? You still need to do esactly the same
backup proceedure."

But avoid having to use it if the drive doesnt die until you dont use it
anymore.

 

[Ian S]

Plenty still do and Seagate is warranting some of theirs for 5 years now.

Of course you have to compare apples to apples. WD used to warrant their
Caviar drives for three years, now it's one. You can buy an extended
warranty for about $20 which is a pretty significant fraction of the actual
cost of the drive even accounting for the typical warranty markup.

Yep, the technical term for that is 'pathetically inadequate sample'

Well, I never claimed it was an adequate sample. But you might want to
consider reliability results at storagereview.com. A quick
back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that the Caviar drives introduced in
2000 and 2001 had an average percentile score of about 55. Those Caviars
introduced in 2002 and 2003 have an average percentile score of 36.
Percentile score X here means that the drive is more reliable than X% of all
the drives in the survey. Consider the 1200JB and the more recent 2000JB
families: percentile scores of 84 and 14 respectively. Now there are a lot
of caveats in the interpretation of such data, but I don't see much cause
for optimism that reliability of hard drives like these continues to
improve.

I notice you didn't comment on the physical limitations that may be coming
into play in electro-mechanical devices, the size of which has not increased
while the capacity has sky-rocketed by a factor of perhaps twenty or more
all within maybe five years or so.

 

[Rod Speed]

Of course you have to compare apples to apples.

We are with that particular question.

WD used to warrant their Caviar drives for three years, now it's one.

Nope, the 8MB cache versions still have a 3 year warranty.

And its the equivalent Seagate Barracuda that has the 5 year warranty.

And Samsung never did drop their warranty period, its always
been 3 years and still is, with equivalent drives, of any cache size.

You can buy an extended warranty for about $20

No need with the 8MB cache version which doesnt cost much
more than the 2MB cache version from most suppliers.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-118&depa=0
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-107&depa=0

which is a pretty significant fraction of the actual cost of
the drive even accounting for the typical warranty markup.

Not with the 8MB cache version.

Well, I never claimed it was an adequate sample.

I never said you did.

But you might want to consider reliability results at storagereview.com.

Separate issue entirely. If you had mentioned that
in your previous post, I wouldnt have said that.

A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that the Caviar
drives introduced in 2000 and 2001 had an average percentile
score of about 55. Those Caviars introduced in 2002 and 2003
have an average percentile score of 36. Percentile score X here
means that the drive is more reliable than X% of all the drives in
the survey. Consider the 1200JB and the more recent 2000JB
families: percentile scores of 84 and 14 respectively. Now
there are a lot of caveats in the interpretation of such data,

Yeah, its close to useless basically on that claim you made
about the length of the warranty. In spades when the JBs
have a 3 year warranty and only differ in the cache size.

but I don't see much cause for optimism that reliability
of hard drives like these continues to improve.

I'll take the record on that.

I notice you didn't comment on the physical limitations that
may be coming into play in electro-mechanical devices,

Because its a furphy. The reality is that we have also
seen drive designs enhanced to handle that, particularly
with modern auto mapping of new defects seen.

the size of which has not increased while the
capacity has sky-rocketed by a factor of perhaps
twenty or more all within maybe five years or so.

And reliability has improved out of sight with the demise
of the very physically large dinosaur drives, and the move
from stepper motor head actuators to voicecoil systems.

We dont see much stiction anymore either, where the head
sticks to the platter so the drive wont spin up at boot time.

And drive prices are now so low that RAID is very viable too.
With a decently designed system you just yawn on drive failure.

 

[Ian S]

now.

We are with that particular question.


Nope, the 8MB cache versions still have a 3 year warranty.

Both my desktop Caviars (1200jb and 2000jb) have 8MB cache and 1 year
warranties. Both were purchased as boxed retail versions and I have
confirmed the warranty status of each. The 1600jb that failed also had an
8MB cache and a one year warranty.

And its the equivalent Seagate Barracuda that has the 5 year warranty.

And Samsung never did drop their warranty period, its always
been 3 years and still is, with equivalent drives, of any cache size.


No need with the 8MB cache version which doesnt cost much
more than the 2MB cache version from most suppliers.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-118&depa=0
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-107&depa=0

Not with the 8MB cache version.



I never said you did.


Separate issue entirely. If you had mentioned that
in your previous post, I wouldnt have said that.


Yeah, its close to useless basically on that claim you made
about the length of the warranty. In spades when the JBs
have a 3 year warranty and only differ in the cache size.

Sorry, both my 8MB cache caviars have 1 year warranties.

I'll take the record on that.


Because its a furphy. The reality is that we have also
seen drive designs enhanced to handle that, particularly
with modern auto mapping of new defects seen.

There are physical limits to electromechanical devices interacting reliably
with high areal density magnetic media.

And reliability has improved out of sight with the demise
of the very physically large dinosaur drives, and the move
from stepper motor head actuators to voicecoil systems.

Don't bring the physically large old drives into the discussion since all my
comments have been with respect to the 3.5" size and confined to drives
since the year 2000. I don't think the evidence supports that "reliability
has improved out of sight" in this timeframe with this physical size.

 

[Rod Speed]

Both my desktop Caviars (1200jb and 2000jb)
have 8MB cache and 1 year warranties.

Clearly that isnt true with drives purchased today
and its been like that for a couple of years now.

Both were purchased as boxed retail versions
and I have confirmed the warranty status of each.

Likely purchased before that change or you go dudded.

The 1600jb that failed also had an 8MB cache and a one year warranty.

You must have got dudded somehow.

And if you want a longer warranty, Samsung has always had a 3 year
warranty on all their drives, and I prefer them to the WDs anyway.

And the Barracudas have a 5 year warranty standard.

Sorry, both my 8MB cache caviars have 1 year warranties.

Wrong. You can confirm that from the url above, and there
have been plenty of comments on that in csphs over the years too.

And see above on the samsungs and seagates anyway.

There are physical limits to electromechanical devices
interacting reliably with high areal density magnetic media.

And we aint anywhere near that except in the sense that
ECCs and retrys are used and have been for years now.

Don't bring the physically large old drives into the discussion
since all my comments have been with respect to the 3.5"
size and confined to drives since the year 2000.

Its the evidence that your claim about capacity is
much more complicated than your original allowed for.

I don't think the evidence supports that "reliability has
improved out of sight" in this timeframe with this physical size.

Only because that physical size hasnt been around for as long.

The reliability has improved significantly over the original 3.5" form
factor drives, particularly those with stepper motor head actuators
because you dont get sector jitter with voice coil drives.

 

[J. Clarke]

Of course you have to compare apples to apples. WD used to warrant their
Caviar drives for three years, now it's one.

They seem to be going to three. Newegg has 250 gig WDs with 1 year for $142
and with 3 year for $140. The warranty is meaningless as an indicator of
anything but how long a warranty the marketing department decided would
sell the most drives.

You can buy an extended
warranty for about $20 which is a pretty significant fraction of the
actual cost of the drive even accounting for the typical warranty markup.

Well, I never claimed it was an adequate sample. But you might want to
consider reliability results at storagereview.com. A quick
back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that the Caviar drives introduced
in 2000 and 2001 had an average percentile score of about 55. Those
Caviars introduced in 2002 and 2003 have an average percentile score of
36. Percentile score X here means that the drive is more reliable than X%
of all the drives in the survey. Consider the 1200JB and the more recent
2000JB families: percentile scores of 84 and 14 respectively. Now there
are a lot of caveats in the interpretation of such data, but I don't see
much cause for optimism that reliability of hard drives like these
continues to improve.

But how accurate are those surveys? Do they reflect realworld percentages
or percentages of people who had problems who sought out storagereview? If
it is not based on a random and representative sample then it is
meaningless.

I notice you didn't comment on the physical limitations that may be coming
into play in electro-mechanical devices, the size of which has not
increased while the capacity has sky-rocketed by a factor of perhaps
twenty or more all within maybe five years or so.

Uh, why would the size "increase"? Perhaps you meant "decrease"? And why
would this make a difference in reliability?

 

[Ian S]

Clearly that isnt true with drives purchased today
and its been like that for a couple of years now.


Likely purchased before that change or you go dudded.

Nope. Even the site you provided has 1 year warranties on the boxed retail
versions of those drives. Apparently OEM drives are different. You can't
compare apples with oranges. The boxed retail WD caviar drives I bought in
the 2000 - 2001 timeframe came with three year warranties. The one I bought
last month did not.

You must have got dudded somehow.

And if you want a longer warranty, Samsung has always had a 3 year
warranty on all their drives, and I prefer them to the WDs anyway.

And the Barracudas have a 5 year warranty standard.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-107&depa=0 storagereview.com.


Wrong. You can confirm that from the url above, and there
have been plenty of comments on that in csphs over the years too.

And see above on the samsungs and seagates anyway.



And we aint anywhere near that except in the sense that
ECCs and retrys are used and have been for years now.



Its the evidence that your claim about capacity is
much more complicated than your original allowed for.


Only because that physical size hasnt been around for as long.

My original comment only mentioned the last few years and only suggested we
might have reached a peak in reliability. I presented some data to support
that. You have made counterclaims - if you have some reliability numbers to
back them up, please share them with us.

 

[Rod Speed]

Yep.

Even the site you provided has 1 year warranties
on the boxed retail versions of those drives.

Irrelevant to what WD says about the warranty with 8MB cache drives.

Apparently OEM drives are different.
Nope.

You can't compare apples with oranges.

Not doing that. Just comparing WD drives with 2MB and 8MB
caches and the warrantys on those two versions of their drives.

The boxed retail WD caviar drives I bought in the 2000
- 2001 timeframe came with three year warranties.

Clearly the WD site says that the 8MB cache drives have a 3 year warranty.

The one I bought last month did not.

Then you got dudded.

My original comment only mentioned the last few years

Irrelevant when its the longer history that shows your claim is wrong.

and only suggested we might have reached a peak in reliability.

Not a shred of evidence to support that claim.

I presented some data to support that.

Like hell you did. Your original presented useful 'evidence' what so
ever and the most recent comment about storagereview is useless
on the general question because you only included WD drive data
and hard drive stats are absolutely notorious for seeing particular
drives go thru periods of higher than normal failure rates.

You have made counterclaims

Nope, just rubbed your nose in the fact that YOUR claims
dont have a shred of evidence to substantiate them on that
claim that drives are getting less reliable now.

- if you have some reliability numbers to
back them up, please share them with us.

Dont need any.

YOU made the claim.

YOU get to provide evidence that substantiates the claim.

THATS how it works.

 

[J. Clarke]

Nope. Even the site you provided has 1 year warranties on the boxed retail
versions of those drives. Apparently OEM drives are different. You can't
compare apples with oranges. The boxed retail WD caviar drives I bought in
the 2000 - 2001 timeframe came with three year warranties. The one I
bought last month did not.

And what point do you think you are making by this assertion? OEM drives
are different only in the packaging, bundled software and accessories and
paperwork or lack of same associated with them. You can get an OEM WD,
according to you, for less than the price of a retail boxed WD drive with a
shorter warranty so the only lesson there seems to be to save your money
and get the longer warranty.

Or are you asserting that the less expensive OEM drives are somehow "better"
than the retail-boxed drives?


<snip>

 

[Ian S]

Irrelevant to what WD says about the warranty with 8MB cache drives.

Read what WD actually says http://support.wdc.com/warranty/policy.asp

" All Western Digital-branded retail hard drive kits, with the exception of
WD Raptor drives, carry a Standard Warranty Period of one (1) year unless
indicated otherwise on the package."

Presumably, "all" includes Caviar drives with 8MB cache.

Not doing that. Just comparing WD drives with 2MB and 8MB
caches and the warrantys on those two versions of their drives.

See above.

Clearly the WD site says that the 8MB cache drives have a 3 year warranty.
Link?


Then you got dudded.



Irrelevant when its the longer history that shows your claim is wrong.

You apparently don't understand the concept of "peak" in a curve.

Not a shred of evidence to support that claim.


Like hell you did. Your original presented useful 'evidence' what so
ever and the most recent comment about storagereview is useless
on the general question because you only included WD drive data
and hard drive stats are absolutely notorious for seeing particular
drives go thru periods of higher than normal failure rates.


Nope, just rubbed your nose in the fact that YOUR claims
dont have a shred of evidence to substantiate them on that
claim that drives are getting less reliable now.


Dont need any.

Translation: you don't have any.

YOU made the claim.

YOU get to provide evidence that substantiates the claim.

I provided data on drives I have experience with. You just shout and wave
your arms.

 

[Rod Speed]

Read what WD actually says http://support.wdc.com/warranty/policy.asp

No need.

" All Western Digital-branded retail hard drive kits, with the
exception of WD Raptor drives, carry a Standard Warranty
Period of one (1) year unless indicated otherwise on the package."

Pity about what the package says with the 8MB drives.

Presumably, "all" includes Caviar drives with 8MB cache.

Fraid not, and you can check that on a wide variety of retailler's sites.

And on storagereview too.

See above.

See above.

Link?

You provided it yourself.

You can check it on a wide variety of retailler's sites.

And on storagereview too.

You apparently don't understand the concept of "peak" in a curve.

You never presented a shred of evidence for any purported peak.

That was just another way of saying there isnt one.

Translation: you don't have any.

Translation:

YOU made the claim.

YOU get to provide evidence that substantiates the claim.

THATS how it works.

I provided data on drives I have experience with.

And as I said, that is a pathetically inadequate sample.

You just shout and wave your arms.

You desperately attempt to bullshit your way out
of your predicament and fool absolutely no one at all.

 

[J. Clarke]

Irrelevant to what WD says about the warranty with 8MB cache drives.


Not doing that. Just comparing WD drives with 2MB and 8MB
caches and the warrantys on those two versions of their drives.


Clearly the WD site says that the 8MB cache drives have a 3 year warranty.

Uh, Rod, you might want to check out the current WD warranty policy at
<http://support.wdc.com/warranty/policy.asp>. Seems that the OEM Caviar
SEs have 3 year warranty but the retail-boxed have only 1. Makes no sense
to me but then little that marketing people do makes sense to anybody else.

<snip>

 

[Rod Speed]

Read what WD actually says http://support.wdc.com/warranty/policy.asp

" All Western Digital-branded retail hard drive kits, with the exception of
WD Raptor drives, carry a Standard Warranty Period of one (1) year unless
indicated otherwise on the package."

Pity about the 3 year warranty for Caviar SE bare drives

Presumably, "all" includes Caviar drives with 8MB cache.

Nope, not the Caviar SEs which have the 8MB cache.

 

[Ian S]

No need.


Pity about what the package says with the 8MB drives.


Fraid not, and you can check that on a wide variety of retailler's sites.

Read it and weep, bozo:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-164&depa=0

 

[Rod Speed]

Read it and weep, bozo:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-164&depa=0

Read it and disembowel yourself, ****wit:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-118&depa=0

 

[J. Clarke]

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-164&depa=0

Read it and disembowel yourself, ****wit:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-118&depa=0

That's an OEM, drive, not retail boxed.

I don't see why it's so important to you that WD retail boxed drives have a
3 year warranty. They don't. So deal.

 

[Ian S]

Read it and disembowel yourself, ****wit:

Ah yes, obscenity, the last refuge of losers! LOL!

 

[Rod Speed]

Ah yes, obscenity, the last refuge of losers! LOL!

Even you should be able to bullshit your way out of your
predicament better than that pathetic effort, loser !!

Your original pig ignorant claim that everyone only offers
1 year warrantys now is and remains, just plain wrong.

 

[dg]

This does seem to be a major problem with plenty of modern streaming
media - the backup seems to go perfectly, then come to restore, the tape
can't be read for a number of reasons. As you say, you need to spend
plenty of sheckels on a decent system.

Always, always, ALWAYS run a VERIFY option on a backup wether its tape, HD,
DVD, whatever (time permitting of course, but I have never had a case where
we can't verify).

--Dan