Any freeware Basic programming languages?

[Vic Drastik]

You are a bit vague about what you what you really want. Learning C++ just
to create a plug-in is like like learning Chinese just to order a meal from
your local takeaway!

If you will continue to use the compiler for other projects, choose C , not
C++ and the best freeware C is LCC-32 , available here
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/


If you really like the feel of BASIC, the best freeware BASIC is XBasic,
available here
http://www.xbasic.org/

Both of these come with lots of documentation and large support groups. In
fact, why not choose both? XBasic is just C with a BASIC face, so start with
XB and go on to C if necessary. Both downloads are less than 5MB, including
documentation.

Vic

 

[John Latter]

This is not a big problem, it just means that if you download the
package from basicguru.com you get an old version.
To get the newer version you need to look up the rapidq site on yi.org
and download the files in the directory for system files.

I don't have the links right now but if you get involved in rapidq it
will be no problem to find it.

Another problem is that it takes time to download all the example
programs one is interested in one by one. I would prefer zipped up
collections of programs. But that is also a minor problem.

The organisation of the files on the rapidq sites could be better
thought out.

I don't know enough about BCX to answer any detailed question, I just
thought I'd give you that alternative to explore if you are
interested. Rapidq is a lot easier to start with and there are a lot
more example programs available, BCX is probably faster and more
powerful but takes more work to get involved in.

Thanks for the info Roger, I've joined the RapidQ and BCX groups but
I'm still in the process of finding out about things - your help is
very much appreciated!

John

--

John Latter

Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect.
http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech

 

[John Latter]

You are a bit vague about what you what you really want. Learning C++ just
to create a plug-in is like like learning Chinese just to order a meal from
your local takeaway!

If you will continue to use the compiler for other projects, choose C , not
C++ and the best freeware C is LCC-32 , available here
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/


If you really like the feel of BASIC, the best freeware BASIC is XBasic,
available here
http://www.xbasic.org/

Both of these come with lots of documentation and large support groups. In
fact, why not choose both? XBasic is just C with a BASIC face, so start with
XB and go on to C if necessary. Both downloads are less than 5MB, including
documentation.

Vic

I did smile at your 'chinese takeaway' analogy but I am looking beyond
writing a single plugin - its just something with a real appplication
that I thought might be a 'small enough' project to begin with!

On the other hand I am dithering in that I like the familarity of
Basic but C (or C++) appears to be more generally used in writing
plugins/applications - and its because I'm looking beyond the plugin
that I'm considering C/C++

I did install XBasic but was deterred by the fact then when I tried to
move one of the opening windows it 'dithered' (or ghosted) everywhere
I moved it too - does that make sense? ie there were continual after
images of the box. I thought there may be something 'wrong' with the
installation.

I have also downloaded LCC-32 which, IIRC, was about 3.6MB but there
are a number of other files (including one of 12MB) which are
apparently essential!

--

John Latter

Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect.
http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech

 

[John Latter]

Yet another question!

If I install a C or C++ programming language is there a greater chance
of my writing a bad program that can affect my system than if I
started off using Basic?

(deletes "I'm pretty good at breaking things to see how they used to
work")

--

John Latter

Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect.
http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech

 

[Vic Drastik]

I did smile at your 'chinese takeaway' analogy but I am looking beyond
writing a single plugin - its just something with a real appplication
that I thought might be a 'small enough' project to begin with!

On the other hand I am dithering in that I like the familarity of
Basic but C (or C++) appears to be more generally used in writing
plugins/applications - and its because I'm looking beyond the plugin
that I'm considering C/C++

I did install XBasic but was deterred by the fact then when I tried to
move one of the opening windows it 'dithered' (or ghosted) everywhere
I moved it too - does that make sense? ie there were continual after
images of the box. I thought there may be something 'wrong' with the
installation.

Check your Windows settings. Right-click on the desktop, select Properties
to get DeskTop Properties, choose the effects tab and see if changing the
Windows properties here makes a difference. For example, deselect "Show
Window contents while dragging". I actually prefer the 'ghosting' effect,
and deliberately turned it on! This is a Windows effect, not XB - there is
nothing wrong with your installation.

I have also downloaded LCC-32 which, IIRC, was about 3.6MB but there
are a number of other files (including one of 12MB) which are
apparently essential!
John Latter

Only essential for 'advanced' Windows programming - you will not need it to
start with, and in any case, this is a help-file for Windows itself, not for
any particular compiler. You will need this if you want to do advanced
Windows programming in any language, including C and XBasic.

If this helps you decide, I found XBasic when I was looking for a language
to teach my daughter programming. I liked it so much, I changed over to it
myself, after using C for more than 20 years.

Why? Because XBasic was designed to be like C, but without the problems of
C. Look at the following example :

C : if ( a = 6 ) x = 7
XB : IF a = 6 THEN x = 7

Look exactly the same, don't they?

Compile them, and you will find that in the C programme, x will always be
set to 7 , irrespective of the value of a. In the XB programme, x will be
set to 7 only if a is 6.

XB also does not have the problems with pointers (hidden), input/output
(simple) and memory allocation (automatic) that C does.


Vic

 

[Gerry Quinn]

Yet another question!

If I install a C or C++ programming language is there a greater chance
of my writing a bad program that can affect my system than if I
started off using Basic?

(deletes "I'm pretty good at breaking things to see how they used to
work")

With reasonable care, the worst you'll have to do is reboot. Probably
there are more options to cause a reboot with most versions of C, but
it's not a reason to choose one over the other.

Gerry Quinn

 

[John Latter]

With reasonable care, the worst you'll have to do is reboot. Probably
there are more options to cause a reboot with most versions of C, but
it's not a reason to choose one over the other.

Gerry Quinn

Hi Gerry,

It's the 'reasonable care' bit that worries me - I'm having horrendous
problems trying to install ANY language, and if I'm ever successful,
God knows what's gonna happen then..

--

John Latter

Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect.
http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech

 

[IM0]

John Latter wrote:

If no-one can help I'll just have to uninstall and try some other
freaki' program - after I've allowed time for the steam coming outa my
ears to die down a bit!

If you want easy installation for BCX you should try BCX Development
Suite from http://www.rjpcomputing.com/programming/bcx/

It is just one single install file which includes all the necessary
files and needs no configuration. It is 22,5 MB (BCX+Lcc-Win32+ConTEXT
editor+extras), but the later updates are smaller.

BCX is very good if you want small and fast programs. It doesn't
need runtimes (XBASIC and RapidQ need) and it is also a very good way
to learn C. If you don't like to use the Basic-part of it you can use
the LCC-WIN32's C-development environment. Basically, you can't lose

As Roger Johansson wrote in this thread, BCX has very good help file
(http://bcx/basicguru.com/BCXHelp.Chm) and the forum is very
helpful. BCX is under constant development.

 

[Vic Drastik]

Hi Vic,

Thankyou for the info - changing the settings has sorted out the
'ghosting' problem!
I must say, however, that I'm absolutely fed up of trying to get ANY
of the languages installed on my machine!

I reinstalled XBasic and found this in the "Help" section:

' To be able to build standalone .exe/.dll files from the command-line
' have to run the xbvars.bat batch-file. This sets some environment
' needed by the build-process. xbvars.bat is automatically generated
' install if you used the self-installing executable. If you used the
' you'll have to create one yourself. It should look like this
' installed XBasic in C:\Program Files\XBasic and C:\PROGRA~1 is the
' name' of it.
'
' @echo off
' set PATH=C:\PROGRA~1\XBasic\bin;%PATH%
' set LIB=C:\PROGRA~1\XBasic\lib;%LIB%
' set INCLUDE=C:\PROGRA~1\XBasic\include;%INCLUDE%

I used the self-installing executable but do I have xbvars.bat? Nope -
and I'm too disillusioned to go down the "Oh well, I'll try making it
myself" path again and end up wating hours and hours going around in
circles. These "Help" notes are very useful for people who ALREADY
know how to do things!!! Ain't there such a thing as "User-friendly"
anymore?

You are the first person to report this, but if it is true, even one is too
many. Maybe they couldn't report it because the steam coming from their
ears made it too hard to use the keyboard Anyway, I will uninstall and
re-install XB myself and see what happens. Watch this space.

' To be able to run standalone (i.e. non-PDE) programs you need to use
' xbrun.dll instead of xb.dll. To use it: copy it and rename that copy
' xb.dll. Make sure that that copy is found before the standard xb.dll
' found (e.g. by putting it in the current directory). If you don't do
' then your standalone program will start the PDE.
I do not have a clue what is going to be found first and what does it
mean by "Make sure...by putting it in the current directory"? How many
freakin' directories are there?
If no-one can help I'll just have to uninstall and try some other
freaki' program - after I've allowed time for the steam coming outa my
ears to die down a bit!
John Latter

I will look at this as well. You certainly are a lightning rod for computer
troubles


Vic

 

[John Latter]

You are the first person to report this, but if it is true, even one is too
many. Maybe they couldn't report it because the steam coming from their
ears made it too hard to use the keyboard Anyway, I will uninstall and
re-install XB myself and see what happens. Watch this space.






I will look at this as well. You certainly are a lightning rod for computer
troubles


Vic

Thankyou for your help Vic, and I will indeed "Watch this Space". With
regard to being a 'lightning rod for computer troubles') the, er,
possibility exists (if it hasn't already occurred to you) that a
minute, but ONLY minute, part of the problem may lie in my own
ineptitude.

Despite the difficulties I'm having I am developing a 'feel' for how
things work - it would be nicer, however, if the knowledge was easier
to come by!

A very l-o-n-g time ago I used to be a systems engineer part of which
initially included writing Data General assembler programs for
functions that couldn't be implemented in the high level language the
project was using at the time.

I quickly learned that a dozen people could interpret a single
instruction regarding how to use the code solutions in a dozen
different ways. A little bit of trial and error and most would be on
course but thereafter it was a pleasure (especially when I got
feedback) to write instructions/programs in a way that presumed no
prior knowledge on the part of the reader. Perhaps I'm living in the
past!

Anyway I do hope you can help, and I very much appreciate the trouble
you're going to!

John

--

John Latter

Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect.
http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech

 

[John Latter]

John Latter wrote:



If you want easy installation for BCX you should try BCX Development
Suite from http://www.rjpcomputing.com/programming/bcx/

It is just one single install file which includes all the necessary
files and needs no configuration. It is 22,5 MB (BCX+Lcc-Win32+ConTEXT
editor+extras), but the later updates are smaller.

BCX is very good if you want small and fast programs. It doesn't
need runtimes (XBASIC and RapidQ need) and it is also a very good way
to learn C. If you don't like to use the Basic-part of it you can use
the LCC-WIN32's C-development environment. Basically, you can't lose

As Roger Johansson wrote in this thread, BCX has very good help file
(http://bcx/basicguru.com/BCXHelp.Chm) and the forum is very
helpful. BCX is under constant development.

Thankyou for the info IMO - it certainly sounds just what I need! Vic
Drastik is helping me out on the XBasic problems I have, but in the
meantime, I'll download the development suite and then I'll be able to
have a look at both.

No doubt its because I don't know very much but at the moment "No
Confiuration" (and therefore no confiuration PROBLEMS) feels like
winning the lottery - well, almost

Thanks again,

John
--

John Latter

Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect.
http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech

 

[Vic Drastik]

John, I have just installed and uninstalled XBasic several times to try to
duplicate your problem, but cannot. When I run the self-installer, it
installs fine, and does create xbvars.bat and xb.ini in my system directory,
in my case called c:\winnt.

Questions
[1] Did you search your hard disk for files of the form xb* ?
[2] Are you using the original Windows 95 i.e. W95A ?
[3] Did you download the latest version of XB - version 6.2.3 ?

If the answers are [1] yes, xbvars.bat and xb.ini not found [2] No [3] Yes,
I cannot think what the problem is.

Try reinstalling, but don't accept the default choice of installation site -
insist that XB be installed in C:\XBasic ( i.e. a directory with no spaces
in its name)

You are the first person to report this, but if it is true, even one is too
many. Maybe they couldn't report it because the steam coming from their
ears made it too hard to use the keyboard Anyway, I will uninstall and
re-install XB myself and see what happens. Watch this space.






I will look at this as well. You certainly are a lightning rod for computer
troubles
Vic

Yes, this is certainly gobbledegook. It means "copy xbrun.dll from where it
is to the same place as xbvars.bat is, then rename the copy to xb.dll by
deleting the word run from the name".

But if you don't have xbvars.bat anywhere, you are in trouble! Open a DOS
window, run the SET command, and the output should tell you where the
system directory is. If this doesn't work, try running the PATH command. If
that doesn't work, try running the following command from your root
directory (e.g. C
dir *xbvar* /s

If that also doesn't work, sell your computer and take up crochet or croquet
or cricket By your turn of phrase, I guess that you are British.

Vic

 

[Glev Zarriontal]

Well, look how mich longer C's been around.

That may not be true. Delphi is a reformatted Pascal.
*****************************************************************************
Lefse is really good grub..."Jeg Elsker Lefse! I Love Lefse!" sums it up well
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dome/3918/index.html

 

[Glev Zarriontal]

Well I've paused the Delphi download cos if I've correctly understood
what Borland say here:

http://www.borland.com/products/downloads/download_cbuilder.html#

then the compiler for C++ is only 8pointsomethingmegabytes, and unless
there's something else to be added, I'll be finished in half-an-hour!

Unless this is a different C++ compiler than what I was looking at
yesterday, it will only compile to a command line interface. Thus it is
doubtful it will be able to create win32 dll files.

I hope..

*****************************************************************************
Lefse is really good grub..."Jeg Elsker Lefse! I Love Lefse!" sums it up well
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dome/3918/index.html

 

[Blinky the Shark]

That may not be true. Delphi is a reformatted Pascal.

So when was the first Delphi released?

 

[Kevin]

Hi,

Are there any freeware Basic programming languages? I've heard of
XBasic but I was wondering if anyone could give any recommendations.

It's a long time since I've done any programming and at the moment I'm
toying with the idea of writing a plugin for my Spam filter
(Spamihilator). Any advice on what this might entail (and whether
there are any online tutorials etc.) would be very welcome.

My knowledge of current computer languages/the internet/Windows XP is
negligible but from a brief Google search it would appear that dlls
can be written in a variety of languages. Therefore I'm assuming that
a dll written in Basic would work as well as one written in any other
language.

Please be tolerant of any naivety this post contains!

--

John Latter

Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect.
http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech

www.darkbasic.com

Have a look, you can get a LITE version for next to nothing, or go for
the Pro.. very cheap and it's BASIC. When I used this program I found
it easy to get into.. ok so I've got to learn a fair bit, but learn
your tools and become a master!

DLL's, DirectX.. heck they've even got it loading BSP map files..
take a look, quick download, easy set up.. use DarkEdit for a Windows
interface and your away! The community is a big help aswell..

 

[Glev Zarriontal]

So when was the first Delphi released?

Delphi came out sometime post Win3 as I recall. Pascal in its original
form is much older as it existed back in MS DOS 5 days if not farther back.
I am not a Delphi/Pascal freak so I really can not say. C was created in
1970's according to the info I have.
*****************************************************************************
Lefse is really good grub..."Jeg Elsker Lefse! I Love Lefse!" sums it up well
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dome/3918/index.html

 

[Blinky the Shark]

Delphi came out sometime post Win3 as I recall. Pascal in its original
form is much older as it existed back in MS DOS 5 days if not farther back.
I am not a Delphi/Pascal freak so I really can not say. C was created in
1970's according to the info I have.

A ref I have says Pascal came out in the early '70s. Delphi isn't even
mentioned; the book was published in 1992.

 

[John Latter]

John, I have just installed and uninstalled XBasic several times to try to
duplicate your problem, but cannot. When I run the self-installer, it
installs fine, and does create xbvars.bat and xb.ini in my system directory,
in my case called c:\winnt.

Questions
[1] Did you search your hard disk for files of the form xb* ?
[2] Are you using the original Windows 95 i.e. W95A ?
[3] Did you download the latest version of XB - version 6.2.3 ?

If the answers are [1] yes, xbvars.bat and xb.ini not found [2] No [3] Yes,
I cannot think what the problem is.

Try reinstalling, but don't accept the default choice of installation site -
insist that XB be installed in C:\XBasic ( i.e. a directory with no spaces
in its name)

Thankyou for the info Vic but before I do anything else I'm gonna take
Dude's advice and spend some time reading up on windows. I can see I'm
coming at this from the wrong angle and I guess I thought installing a
language would be as straightforward as something like adaware where
its 'self-contained' (if you see what I mean).

To answer your specific questions: I didn't do any wildcard search and
I do have the latest version. When I come back to this though, I'm
unsure what you mean by the reference to Windows 95? (I got XP)

I'm determine to get into programming though so I can't take up
cricket or croquet etc..
Besides, I'm only nominally British - if I can't do programmining then
the German half of me is gonna have to find something useful to do
like Empire building or something

John

Yes, this is certainly gobbledegook. It means "copy xbrun.dll from where it
is to the same place as xbvars.bat is, then rename the copy to xb.dll by
deleting the word run from the name".

But if you don't have xbvars.bat anywhere, you are in trouble! Open a DOS
window, run the SET command, and the output should tell you where the
system directory is. If this doesn't work, try running the PATH command. If
that doesn't work, try running the following command from your root
directory (e.g. C
dir *xbvar* /s

If that also doesn't work, sell your computer and take up crochet or croquet
or cricket By your turn of phrase, I guess that you are British.

Vic

--

John Latter

Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect.
http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech

 

[John Latter]

Windows is more user-friendly than it used to be, and certainly
moreso than MS-DOS,... but it still requires a certain level of
understanding to use comfortably.... depending on what you want
to do. If AOL Email, a few games and a few simple applications
are all you need, Windows is probably as user-friendly as
possible.

What you need to realize is that programming is non-standard
use, and it does require much more from you. Until you become
comfortable with--even a "power user" of--the platform, you
are going to find this rough going.

Bottom line: programming is hard. Period.

(We are, after all, the Keepers Of Arcania -- Priests of the
Modern Age -- TechnoDemiGods In Our Own Minds! That's never
come easily, and it's something of an exclusive club.

Well I would like to join the Club and become a TechnoDemiGod!

It would be a natural outlet for the Teutonic arrogance I've inherited
on my mother's side - I've already deleted 'Demi' from the title and
it will be really good not having to associate with ordinary windows
users ('spit') in the same way as winning the lottery will mean not
having to talk to poor people anymore.

This could be more fun than I thought.

In the meantime I guess I've got to do some work - I'm gonna see if I
can find any tutorials that'll give an insight into the internal
structure of windows, if you have any recommendations I would be
pleased to hear them!

Thanks again,

John

As many as you want.

If you aren't familiar and comfortable with Windows Explorer,
STOP EVERYTHING and start exploring Explorer. It's a brower
tool for your computer. **Very** important to master.

What they're telling you (and I think this is one of the lamest
things I've heard today) is that there are two files that come
with this XBasic -- xbrun.dll and xb.dll. What it appears is
that the XBasic system (including, apparently, compiled files)
looks for xb.dll when starting. (DLL files contain program bits
that make a system work.) It always wants to use this xb.dll.

However, one of the program bits in xb.dll is apparently the
bit that does the PDE (Program Dev. Environment?), and you don't
want that for a stand-alone. So they give you another dll that
just runs the program. This is called xbrun.dll.

So, what you get to do, once you've compiled a program and want
to just use it, is copy it from your work directory to some
other directory. You also get to find xbrun.dll, copy that to
the same "run" directory and then rename it to xb.run.

Simple, eh? ;-\

BTW:
You know the saying about free stuff being worth every penny?
One advantage to buying something is the support. The other
thing about free stuff is there is a huge variation of quality.
Some free stuff is better than equal or nearly equal costly
stuff; other times, free stuff is outright dangerous.

--

John Latter

Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect.
http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech