Access maybe, Sql no

[Steve Dassin]

Greetings Access Users,

I'm here to sell something. An idea. Some of you may have heard of a
system called Dataphor from Alphora. I have been working with it for a
while and happen to think that an Access user would understand the big
picture presented by Dataphor. While I have no business connection
with them I would be more than willing to help anyone who was
interested in exploring it. I've blogged about it quite a bit and
presented many key concepts thru practical examples. This is not
intended to be taken as anything pejorative concerning Access. Even if
your just intellectually curious that is fine.
To those that are unfamiliar with Dataphor it a system that
is intended for application development much like Access.
It has a vba like language which additionally supports an sql like
database language. But this database language is quite special
If you have questions feel free to contact me thru my blog
via comments or email.

Dataphor @
www.alphora.com

My blog:
www.beyondsql.blogspot.com

 

[George Nicholson]

gosh, feel free to add this to your blog:

Mcafee Virus Scan went nuts on the alphora. com page. Multiple warnings for:

Exploit-MS06-014
Exploit-ObscuredHtml
Downloader-AYJ

 

[Steve Dassin]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Especially if it's a jackass

 

[Guest]

Steve,

Hmmm... commercials in a support newsgroup specific to another company's
product...does this mean it'd be ok for me to advertize for my blog from
within your blog (if I had one, that is)?

....just curious.

 

[Douglas J. Steele]

Sorry, Steve, but George is a consistent poster here, so I personally would
tend to believe him.

Perhaps you can offer some suggestion why McAfee doesn't like your page. (I
don't use McAfee anymore, and after George's warnings, I'm not inclined to
visit the site to see how my anti-virus reacts)

 

[George Nicholson]

oohhh, a flame. gosh, what a thrill. thanks!

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Especially if it's a jackass

 

[Guest]

oohhh, a flame. gosh, what a thrill. thanks!

You, sir are a good man. I would have been very tempted to not have been so
kind in return had he flamed me so stupidly.

 

[Steve Dassin]

Hello Doug,

Doug Steele, I have a memory of that person from Access days
some time ago. I trust you are doing well.
Look, the last thing I wanted was to get into a pissing match
with some kids. I'm sure you'll agree I would be overmatched .

Firstly I have *no* business connection with Alphora but a
big intellectual one. I'm simply offering an idea that I think
Access users would be receptive to. For what it's worth, here is
the result from McAfee SiteAdvisor:
http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/alphora.com?ref=safe&aff_id=0
alphora.com
Green Verdict Image
'We tested this site and didn't find any significant problems.'

And I certainly am not here to dump on Access. I recently read
stuff like this:
InfoWorld
August 08, 2007
Die Access Die!
http://weblog.infoworld.com/dbunderground/archives/2007/08/die_access_die.html
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/forums/shwmessage.aspx?forumid=263&messageid=389963&p=1

Of course this debate is framed by too many nitwits. Net is a
wonderful framework. Sql server is a me too product that MySql
could easily replace. The idea of Access users going to net
and sql server is the same client-server idea thats been
around since before electricity. The whole allure of the concepts
of rapid application and what Access users refer to as the
'integration' of various components is lost on those who
think they know their way around a server database and net.
There's a fancy word for what Access tries to do, it tries to
overcome the natural impedance mismatch between a database
and a client language. The very ideas that Access users like
are in Dataphor. But these ideas are much more formalized
in a much more rigorous system. As for sql well I think I can
speak quite intelligently about it - In the entire history
of sql there has never been a 'something' else to measure it
against. Vendors and writers have forever been able to use
the terms 'relational' and sql as synonyms. Users have never
seen relational concepts that are written about. MS and Oracle
can call their systems 'relational' only because nothing existed
which users could compare. Well now there is something which
can be compared and contrasted with sql. Assumptions is the
mother of all screwups and basic assumptions about sql are
no exceptions. The idea that a language which was designed
to access 2 millions rows in a join should be the same language
for application development as a user of Access understands
the term is utterly ridiculous. It is universally assumed that
sql is a one size fits all deal. This is nonsense. And make no
mistake I am *not* taking about OO silliness or the LINQ crap
that MS is going to push. I will personally rip them to shreds
on that Imagine if you will that vba was more tightly
integrated with jet. Imagine if you will that jet understood
the concept of a variable on a higher level, that it understood
different types. A 'list' type, a cursor type and finally the
most important of all, a table type. The idea of a strongly
typed database language is something users have never seen.
This is bringing the concepts of .net directly into a database
language. This is overcoming the impedance mismatch like its
never been seen before. I realize that many of these concepts
may not register with people. That is why I have practical
examples of what this stuff 'looks like' and what it can do
on my blog. I'm trying to talk the talk as well as walk the walk.
Alphora got right, I'm trying to show IT just how right.
I'm only one of a few but I still like my odds

best,
steve

www.beyondsql.blogspot.com
www.alphora.com

 

[Steve Dassin]

Mark,

There are commercials and there are *ideas*. I'm not selling
their product here, but I am trying to introduce the thought
behind it.
If you have something to say I do not moderate comments on
my blog. Fire away
You should blog. What good is a doomsday device if the world
doesn't know about it?

best,
steve

 

['69 Camaro]

Sir, please share with us the name of the school you are currently attending
so that no one else has the misfortune of following in your footsteps and
suffering the consequences of being taught that it is ever acceptable to
conduct oneself in an unprofessional, immature manner by calling someone
trying to be helpful a jackass, that it is ever acceptable to spam the
technical newsgroups, and whose education in databases leaves the student
woefully ill-prepared to engage in a friendly discourse about databases.

I'm trying to talk the talk as well as walk the walk.

Hold off on those walking shoes. And regarding "talking the talk" about
databases: You should return to your school post haste and scream bloody
murder until they refund your tuition for your database, ethics, and
philosophy courses, because you, sir, have been ripped off.

HTH.
Gunny

 

[Steve Dassin]

I'm willing to listen and learn where I've taken a wrong turn
understanding databases.
The floor is yours.

 

[Gary Walter]

I'm here to sell something. An idea. Some of you may have heard of a
system called Dataphor from Alphora. I have been working with it for a
while and happen to think that an Access user would understand the big
picture presented by Dataphor. While I have no business connection
with them I would be more than willing to help anyone who was
interested in exploring it. I've blogged about it quite a bit and
presented many key concepts thru practical examples. This is not
intended to be taken as anything pejorative concerning Access. Even if
your just intellectually curious that is fine.
To those that are unfamiliar with Dataphor it a system that
is intended for application development much like Access.
It has a vba like language which additionally supports an sql like
database language. But this database language is quite special
If you have questions feel free to contact me thru my blog
via comments or email.

Dataphor @
www.alphora.com

My blog:
www.beyondsql.blogspot.com

Jeez...the responses here remind me of some
of the bad committee meetings I have been
forced to sit in on in my life...

Thank you Steve for pointing this out.

I use ESet/ZoneAlarm/FireFox w/NoScript & FireBug.

Besides finding your blog instead at

beyondsql.blogspot.com

I suffered no ill consequences from investigating
your links, plus was intrigued by some of the
new ways of thinking.

We are in crunch time at work so will have to
forego getting too deep into this for now.

You have spent some time obviously on this
so maybe you would not mind a quick question
or two?

Most of my applications I could have easily done in VB
but it always came down to reports -- maybe because
I have worked with Access reports so much that I cannot
learn a new trick -- but Crystal Reports always felt like
a step backwards. Does this include a reporting tool?

Another thought that comes to me (after only a cursory
scan of the links) is that it is built on Microsoft .Net
Framework. Rightly or wrongly, that scares me on
several levels.

I come from the

"It isn't done until Lotus doesn't run"

days.

I worked for a hotel chain in Denver in those days
and I helped "automate" their restaurant/hotel audit
reports using a new Lotus product that had a new
concept called "pivot tables."

The "Borg" assimilated them.

I imagine that one might say that kind of reasoning
leads to no change, no rethinking, and that is probably
true -- but no less true than trying to find that software
for sale today. So...a specious concern, but true none
the less.

I did spend some time on your blog and look
forward to coming back after crunch time.

Just the simple reasoning of why one cannot
rename a table's field in Access/SQL was an
eye-opener (could I handle the freedom of
tables as objects?) As was your piece on
ranking and the iterative process that has to
go on in the background under typical SQL.

Those 2 things made the trip worthwhile.

Plus, anyone who can introduce a concept
using "V" as a source gets my vote!

So...thanks Steve.

I have to get back to work for now.

good luck,

gary

 

[Gary Walter]

I know...

"tables as objects" wrongly blurs the very point...

I wish I could edit that out...

 

[George Nicholson]

If you were referring to me as a kid I'll just have to call you old man
'cause you'd have to be 70 or older...

I didn't mean to start anything either, but visiting that site set of my
Mcafee alarms for the first time in 3 years. And it set off 10 alarms within
30 seconds. While glad to see evidence that Mcafee was actually doing
something, I also thought that was worth a warning. If that makes me a
jackass, I will wear the label proudly.

Interestingly enough, nowhere in the SiteAdvisor site does it say they look
for viruses. Just phishing, adware, excessive cookies, popups, etc. Not
viruses or trojans. So "safe" is apparently relative...

Google "alphora". 1st hit is "Alphora Homepage", *With the warning that
"this site may harm your computer"*!

If you click on the Google link, Google *will not* even take you there, you
get a "if you want to go to this site you're going to have to type in the
address yourself, because we want nothing to do with it" page instead.

Guess that would make Google a jackass too, huh? I'm thinking of starting a
club.

 

[Steve Dassin]

Hello Gary,

It's been some time -

I use ESet/ZoneAlarm/FireFox w/NoScript & FireBug.
Besides finding your blog instead at
beyondsql.blogspot.com
I suffered no ill consequences from investigating
your links,

I've never heard of anyone having any problems, perhaps the reason lies
eleswhere

Most of my applications I could have easily done in VB
but it always came down to reports -- maybe because
I have worked with Access reports so much that I cannot
learn a new trick -- but Crystal Reports always felt like
a step backwards. Does this include a reporting tool?

No. There's no built in component like Access Reports. You can use any
report writer you like including Access Reports. The concept of a device
(the storage layer (like sql server)) implies communication from the device
to any component(s) it supports. I guess I should show an example of how
this would look and work

Another thought that comes to me (after only a cursory
scan of the links) is that it is built on Microsoft .Net
Framework. Rightly or wrongly, that scares me on
several levels.

I come from the

"It isn't done until Lotus doesn't run"

days.

I worked for a hotel chain in Denver in those days
and I helped "automate" their restaurant/hotel audit
reports using a new Lotus product that had a new
concept called "pivot tables."

The "Borg" assimilated them.

I imagine that one might say that kind of reasoning
leads to no change, no rethinking, and that is probably
true -- but no less true than trying to find that software
for sale today. So...a specious concern, but true none
the less.

One could write a book on your question The short answer is one
must have faith that at least .net will live long and prosper. Given the
conceptual framework of this relational database system net is a natural
basis for its implementation. Net encapsulates many of the concepts that
are extended to the database. If something better than net comes along
that's ok too - Net is like sql, many people can program it and show
off their code. Very few can actually explain the concepts and talk about
what is really going on. In general the database community does not
undestand
net and tip toes around it. We need more bridges so each can get to the
otherside.

I did spend some time on your blog and look
forward to coming back after crunch time.

Just the simple reasoning of why one cannot
rename a table's field in Access/SQL was an
eye-opener (could I handle the freedom of
tables as objects?) As was your piece on
ranking and the iterative process that has to
go on in the background under typical SQL.

Those 2 things made the trip worthwhile.

Plus, anyone who can introduce a concept
using "V" as a source gets my vote!

A yes V -

Thank you for stopping by. Don't be a stranger!

best,
steve

 

[David W. Fenton]

Vendors and writers have forever been able to use
the terms 'relational' and sql as synonyms.

Not ones who know anything at all. The marketing people, maybe, but
not the technical people.

 

[Steve Dassin]

Not ones who know anything at all. The marketing people, maybe, but
not the technical people.

I seem to recall a David W. Fenton. Here my shields are down
I trust you are doing well.

All I'm trying to do is introduce a 'formal' definition of what
'relational' means in a db system. You can tacitly know that sql
is not relational but there has never been a clear distinction
for people to sink their teeth into. I hope some take a bite.

best,
steve

 

[David W. Fenton]

I seem to recall a David W. Fenton. Here my shields are down
I trust you are doing well.

All I'm trying to do is introduce a 'formal' definition of what
'relational' means in a db system. You can tacitly know that sql
is not relational but there has never been a clear distinction
for people to sink their teeth into. I hope some take a bite.

It's obvious that SQL is not relational -- it's a practical
application of set theory, which doesn't have anything to do with
relational theory, except that set theory is useful in modelling
relational structures.

 

[Steve Dassin]

.
It's obvious that SQL is not relational -- it's a practical
application of set theory, which doesn't have anything to do with
relational theory, except that set theory is useful in modelling
relational structures.

That is my point, sql does *not* deal with relational structures.
I'm trying to show just what a database that does deal with such
structures looks like. If it is so obvious what the differences
are why hasn't there ever been a relational database? And there
is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant Too many people
actually think a database can be somewhat relational, a little
relational, or relational like. That is nonsense. Hey, I took
sql where it never went before Now I'm trying to take it to
a whole new level. Make sense?

www.beyondsql.blogsot.com

 

['69 Camaro]

I'm willing to listen and learn where I've taken a wrong turn

understanding databases.
The floor is yours.

Thank you. I recommend you start on the following Web pages:

http://www.amazon.com/Miss-Manners-...4155424-1604134?ie=UTF8&qid=1188172297&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Manners-Excru...4155424-1604134?ie=UTF8&qid=1188172297&sr=1-1

The books can be read quickly, but it takes about two to five years of daily
practice for the concepts to sink in. Go ahead and get started. I'll wait.

HTH.
Gunny