16mb buffer hard drive in a laptop

[Chris Allen]

(e-mail address removed)3m.es (P.T. Breuer) wrote

they won't operate for long. They have very limited
number of write cycles.

Typically 1 million minimum write cycles for the higher
quality flash:
http://www.google.com/search?q=flash+"write+cycles"+million

 

[Chris Allen]

(e-mail address removed)3m.es (P.T. Breuer) wrote

The max write cycle on flash memory is only a few
hundred times.

The minimum write cycle capacity for any commercial
flash is one hundred thousand. Higher quality flash
units typically have write cycle capacities of
one million, minimum:
http://www.google.com/search?q=flash+"write+cycles"+million

 

[Al Dykes]

Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have ECC
and sector remapping just like hard drives. They can use other tricks like
rotating frequently written sectors.

The CF cards used in cameras _can_ be used as a compuer disk
drive. I've done it, but the cehap consuber models is slow as ....,
and have a documented limititation on the lifetime # of write cycles,
in the "millions", and I've never figured out exactly what was
a "write cycle" .

The software I use boots from the CF card, builds a memory-resident
RAMdisk for data structures, the marks the CFcard file system as
read-only. The guy that hacked Linix to do this had to play some
games to make Linux run on a read-only boot partition.


http://www.nycwireless.net/pebble/


There are solid-state IDE disks, but I believe they max out at a GB
and are very expensive.

 

[J. Clarke]

The CF cards used in cameras _can_ be used as a compuer disk
drive. I've done it, but the cehap consuber models is slow as ....,
and have a documented limititation on the lifetime # of write cycles,
in the "millions", and I've never figured out exactly what was
a "write cycle" .

Every time you change a bit that's a "write cycle" and I'd like to see the
documentation that says that it's in the "millions". The slow writes are a
characteristic of flash memory--to change the contents a certain voltage
has to be applied for a certain period of time.

In any case, if it's in the millions and you're using it for swap space you
can go through that in a few weeks.

The software I use boots from the CF card, builds a memory-resident
RAMdisk for data structures, the marks the CFcard file system as
read-only. The guy that hacked Linix to do this had to play some
games to make Linux run on a read-only boot partition.

Actually, there are no "games" that have to be played to make Linux run from
a read-only boot partition. The boot partition contains the loader and the
kernel and a minimum set of drivers and not much else and the only time its
contents get changed is when one deliberately updates its contents.

Every Linux distribution I know of installs from a bootable CD, which is
about as "read only" as it gets.

As for your software, if that does what you need that's fine but it's hardly
a general-purpose solution.

http://www.nycwireless.net/pebble/


There are solid-state IDE disks, but I believe they max out at a GB
and are very expensive.

The flash disks come much larger than that, but I don't know of any
non-flash solid-state IDE disks. The SCSI solid state disks can cost
anywhere from a few thousand to a few million dollars but they're designed
for speed.

 

[J. Clarke]

(e-mail address removed)3m.es (P.T. Breuer) wrote

The minimum write cycle capacity for any commercial
flash is one hundred thousand. Higher quality flash
units typically have write cycle capacities of
one million, minimum:
http://www.google.com/search?q=flash+"write+cycles"+million

Now, is there any particular site among the 2330 turned up by that search
that supports your argument, or are you just using the "bury 'em in
bullshit" approach?

 

[David Chien]

Also, flash drives are MUCH MUCH SLOWER than hard drives for writing.
They have no seek delay, and the read speed is reasonably fast, but
the write speed is very slow.

http://www.m-sys.com/Content/Products/product.asp?pid=26
up to 47GB models available, 90GB model announced.

16.7 MBytes/sec burst read/write rate
8.3-8.7 MBytes/sec sustained read rate (DMA 2)
8.0-12.0 MBytes/sec sustained write rate (DMA 2)

http://www.m-systems.com/Content/Products/product.asp?pid=34
Up to 4GB model in standard 9.5mm thickness at
Performance
Burst Read/Write: 100.0 MBytes/sec
Sustained Read: 40.0 MBytes/sec
Sustained Write: 40.0 MBytes/sec
Access time: <0.04 ms

 

[David Chien]

However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of

write cycles.

Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
that's running just fine in my notebook.

flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
any problems at all in most user environments.

 

[David Chien]

for a government supplier of flash HDs (M-systems), here's their specs
for one 2.5" they sell:

Reliability
MTBF: 1,493,418 hours MTBF for 4.0 GB based on Telcordia SR-332, GB, 25°C
EDC/ECC Embedded EDC/ECC, based on BCH Algorithm
BER (Bit Error Rate) <10-20
5 Million write/erase cycles, unlimited read cycles, 5 year warranty.

compare that to a Toshiba HD (100GB 2.5" model):

Error Rates:
Non-recoverable 1 in 1013 bits
Seek 1 in 106 seeks
MTTF (Power on hours) 300,000
Product Life 5 years or 20,000 power ON hours

Flash drives are far more reliable in terms of bit-rate errors (10^-20
vs. 10^-13 for HDs) and time to failure.

Keep in mind that the write/erase cycle is for =each memory cell=.
Thus, for an entire HD to be rendered useless, you'll have to put each
cell through 100,000+ write/erase cycles (for typical specs; higher for
higher quality flash cells). You can rest assured that you'll have to
use a flash drive hard for years before anything happens.

 

[Al Dykes]

http://www.m-sys.com/Content/Products/product.asp?pid=26
up to 47GB models available, 90GB model announced.

16.7 MBytes/sec burst read/write rate
8.3-8.7 MBytes/sec sustained read rate (DMA 2)
8.0-12.0 MBytes/sec sustained write rate (DMA 2)

http://www.m-systems.com/Content/Products/product.asp?pid=34
Up to 4GB model in standard 9.5mm thickness at
Performance
Burst Read/Write: 100.0 MBytes/sec
Sustained Read: 40.0 MBytes/sec
Sustained Write: 40.0 MBytes/sec
Access time: <0.04 ms

How much do they cost. * figure $50/GB for the big/slow models and
$100/GB for the small/fast models.


This is editied from the spec sheets for the second URL;

Power
Input voltage: 5VDC (+/- 5%)
Typical power consumption:

4.0GB 90.1GB
Idle 2.7 W 3.1 W
Standby 2.5 W 3.1 W
Sustained R/W2.7 W 4.5 W
Sanitize 3.0 W 6.0 W


(It looks like it draws more power than a similar 2.5in
hard disk, by a small mut meaningful amount.)

Endurance
Unlimited read cycles

5,000,000 Write/Erase cycles

TrueFFS. dynamic wear-leveling
Garbage collection process

10 years' data retention

(It's not unlimited write cycles. I've never seen
a description if what a write/erase cycle is.)

 

[David Chien]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=51076&item=5118821977&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

This guy is selling 10 such 800MB flash drives for $40 / each.

 

[Paul Rubin]

How much do they cost. * figure $50/GB for the big/slow models and
$100/GB for the small/fast models.

Where'd you get those prices from? That's astonishingly low.

 

[David Chien]

http://www.litepc.com/98micro.html

Only 46MB required for a 98Lite install of Windows 98, 121MB for Windows 98.

Out of 800MB, I =think= there's enough room to load up Office 97,
Mozilla, Photoshop, and a couple other programs before it all runs of room.

Besides, Knoppix runs off a single CD, so there you go -- no problems
running a handful of commonly used applications on either Linux or
Windows on a 800MB HD.

(Makes you wonder, too. What in the world did MS throw into XP that
bloated a 121MB, 1806 file install of Windows 98 into a 1/2GB, 10k+ file
install of XP?!? It's not like we can't do anything with our files that
we couldn't do in XP in 98. No wonder our PCs are so slow today....)

 

[J. Clarke]

Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
that's running just fine in my notebook.

flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
any problems at all in most user environments.

In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap file,
which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running Windows
that's another story but then you're not running anything characteristic of
"most user environments".

 

[Paul Rubin]

http://www.litepc.com/98micro.html

Only 46MB required for a 98Lite install of Windows 98, 121MB for Windows 98.

Yeah, the question was where Al got those flash drive prices. I have
no interest at all in running Windows, but wow, you were right about
the 810MB drive. I might buy one.

 

[J. Clarke]

http://www.litepc.com/98micro.html

Only 46MB required for a 98Lite install of Windows 98, 121MB for Windows
98.

How about a version of Windows that is actually in production? In case you
have noticed Microsoft quit selling 98 some time ago.

Out of 800MB, I =think= there's enough room to load up Office 97,
Mozilla, Photoshop, and a couple other programs before it all runs of
room.

That might be--2K and Office 2000 left 3 gig out of a five gig disk. And
that was only a partial O2K--a full install had several more apps from the
first CD and 3 more to go.

Besides, Knoppix runs off a single CD, so there you go -- no problems
running a handful of commonly used applications on either Linux or
Windows on a 800MB HD.

(Makes you wonder, too. What in the world did MS throw into XP that
bloated a 121MB, 1806 file install of Windows 98 into a 1/2GB, 10k+ file
install of XP?!? It's not like we can't do anything with our files that
we couldn't do in XP in 98. No wonder our PCs are so slow today....)

Actually, they threw 98 compatibility into NT.

 

[Chris Allen]

Now, is there any particular site among the 2330 turned up by
that search that supports your argument,

The pull-quotes from the sites returned by Google seem
sufficient to support the contention that minimum write
cycle capacities are not atypically in the millions:


DL642G (128Mb, x16)
.... system, allowing host software to easily reconfigure for different
Flash devices. ...
nA typical standby mode current. Minimum 1 million write cycles
guaranteed per ...
www.amd.com/us-en/FlashMemory/ProductInformation/
0,,37_1447_1453_1639%5E7446,00.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

LV033C (32Mb, x8)
.... nA in standby or automatic sleep mode. Minimum 1 million write
cycles guaranteed
per ... Software Features: Supports Common Flash Memory Interface
(CFI); Erase Suspend ...
www.amd.com/us-en/FlashMemory/ProductInformation/
0,,37_1447_1457_1468%5E1585,00.html - 39k - Cached - Similar pages
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Memtech Solid State Flash Drive Endurance Surpasses 8 Million ...
Memtech Solid State Flash Drive Endurance Surpasses 8 Million
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www.st.com/stonline/press/news/year2003/p1293m.htm - 15k - Cached -
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[PDF] EE - - DDiisskkSSoolliiddTTa appee
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
.... SPECIFICATIONS FOR E-DISK ® SOLIDTAPE Flash Disk and ...
RELIABILITY: Drive MTBF > 1.9
Million Hours @ Bellcore ... 27 years @ 100GB/day erase/write cycles
123 years ...
www.bitmicro.com/public_docs/ products_edsolidtape_datasheet.pdf -
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[PDF] EE - - DDiisskk
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
.... DISK ® 3.5" FIBRE CHANNEL SERIES Flash Disk and ... Required
RELIABILITY: MTBF > 1.9
Million Hours @ Bellcore ... 27 years @ 100GB/day erase/write cycles
123 years ...
www.bitmicro.com/public_docs/ products_edfc_datasheet.3.5.pdf -
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Designtechnica Forums - Crucial Gizmo! 256MB Review
.... variants like (CFI-compatible,NAND-flash,JEDEC etc ... have a
limited number read/write
cycles available (typically ... of 1 to 5 million write cycles --
depending on ...
forums.designtechnica.com/archive/index.php/t-3386.html - 8k - Cached
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global-electronics.net - Embedded Systems - 2004-08-19
.... NoDelay writes so, unlike EEPROM or Flash, no write ... an
unlimited number of read or
write cycles, whereas EEPROM wears out after approximately one million
cycles ...
www.global-electronics.net/id/20264/CMEntries_ID/56843 - 45k - Aug 26,
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Q: How can I access my router? A: Settings are retrieved from ...
.... updates, this should be a complete non issue over the useful life
of the unit, the
flash will outlive the IPV4 protocol. The million write cycles will
last ...
openwrt.ksilebo.net/temp/OpenWrt-FAQ.txt - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

News Archive at Digit-Life.com
.... Kanguru releases 2Gb USB2.0 flash drive — Cormac @ 15:50 Discuss
this. ... warranty,
the company ensures 10 years of operation or 1 million read/write
cycles. ...
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BYTE.com
.... Flash-memory cells can wear out after a number of write cycles,
typically between
100,000 and 1 million, depending on the design of the cell and the
precision ...
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[PDF] Nonvolatile Nonvolatile Memory Memory Technologies: Technologies
....
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
.... Page 5. 5 Moore's Law will Continue with Moore's Law will Continue
with ETOX ETOX
Flash Flash óó Currently shipping 8 Currently shipping 8 th th ...
www.ece.umd.edu/courses/enee759h.S2003/
references/Stefan_Korea_022703.pdf - Similar pages

Half.com: PortableDisk USB 64 MB Flash Memory Pen Drive
.... This is a brand new USB 64 MB portable flash memory pen ... and
more than 10 years data
retention **** More than 1 million read/write cycles **** Weight: 15g
....
half.ebay.com/cat/buy/
prod.cgi?cpidEQ1149966140AMPdomain_idEQ1855AMPmeta_idEQ5 - 38k -
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Nortel Names AMD Supplier of Year - PCStats.com
.... All AMD flash memory products are guaranteed for a minimum of one
million write
cycles per sector and 20 years' data retention, making them the most
reliable ...
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MICROCHIP Technology - 8kb and 16kb serial EEPROMs
.... and high reliability with 200-year data retention and one million
erase/write cycles. ...
8-bit flash micros offer enhanced power management (27-Feb-2004). ...
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Imation launches USB 2.0 Swivel Flash Drive line
.... Kanguru offers 4GB flash drive MacCentral - May 26, 2004. ... says
they'll last up to
100,000 write cycles and retain ... 07:40 am EU fines Microsoft €497
million. ...
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Small-footprint MCUs save more power - Microchip Technology
.... PIC16F688 microcontrollers offer up to 7Kbyte of Flash program
memory, making use
of Microchip's PEEC Flash technology offering one million erase/write
cycles. ...
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CAN microcontrollers have more memory - Microchip Technology
.... the enhanced Flash also offers 40 year data retention, and
endurance up to 100,000
erase-write cycles, with the data EEPROM specified up to a million
erase ...
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nV News Forums - what are prospects for high capacity flash mem?
.... flash, not sure about others) have a finite lifetime, in terms of
read/write cycles
that can be applied to each "bit" before it dies. It's of order a
million ...
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Review: VME Systems CF-IDE CompactFlash IDE adapter
.... zillions (a technical term) of read/write cycles before it ...
Different kinds of Flash
memory may have considerably ... durability - I've seen one million
erase cycle ...
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Getting rid of the disks
.... an ATA SSD, and the CompactFlash option gives you a very
physically small one too,
but the flash memory will poop out after 100,000 to a million write
cycles. ...
www.dansdata.com/gz020.htm - 24k - Aug 25, 2004 - Cached - Similar
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EEDesign.com - Energy Consumption Looms Large in Choosing Flash ...
.... k read cycles,an erase then 4-k write cycles must be ... more
energy if a high-current
flash were chosen ... powered by GlobalSpec: * Search among 67 million
parts from ...
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PATCH: Forcible delaying of UFS (soft)updates
.... wrote: > > [Flash memory] > > The life expectancy of these devices
is really, really > >
underestimated. In practice, I've seen two million write cycles > >
....
lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/ freebsd-stable/2003-April/000608.html -
5k - Cached - Similar pages

PATCH: Forcible delaying of UFS (soft)updates
.... life of two million write cycles, the : "occasional" 30-second
round of updates
that happen to write the same : bits over and over will give your
flash part a ...
lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/ freebsd-fs/2003-April/000066.html - 5k -
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[PDF] MTI .
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
.... Flash memory can only write data in blocks, unlike ... it wears
out after a finite number
of write cycles. ... 0.00% Fully diluted shares 596.21 million Average
daily ...
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RIA®/CS300 Rackmount Server
.... Typically, this is 1 million write cycles. Flash devices are thus
not suitable for
high-write applications or operating systems, nor swap files. IBM
Microdrive. ...
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Newark InOne: Microchip
.... battery life; FLASH memory: PMOS Electrically Erasable Cell
(PEEC)-greater than
40-year retention; supports up to 1 million data memory ERASE/WRITE
cycles; ...
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Memtech AT2550 Wolverine: 2.5" IDE UDMA-66 Solid State Drive - [
Translate this page ]
.... The Wolverine, with impressive endurance (minimum of 8 Million
Erase/Write Cycles),
8 year ... most cost effective high end solid state flash drive
product in ...
www.altec-computersysteme.com/news/at2550-pr.htm - 9k - Cached -
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Air Force Technology - L-3 Communications Corp./ Electrodynamics ...
.... 4MB to 192MB Flash memory; 100,000 memory write cycles; Power fail
.... Less than one
bit error per million; BIT: power-on, commanded, periodic; Operational
....
www.airforce-technology.com/ contractors/electronic/l3_communications/
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Specs 1
Memory Key, MP3 Player. Storage Media: Flash Memory; USB Host
Interface 1.0 /
1.1; USB Bootable; Over 1 Million write cycles / Unlimited Read; ...
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The Semiconductor Reporter
.... Unlike EEPROM or flash memory, no write delays are ... an
unlimited number of read or
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cycles. ...
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[PDF] VW Embeds Micronas Controllers into New Touran Dashboard
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
.... Micronas CDC 3207G Car Dashboard Controller • 512k Byte Flash ROM
(data retention
20 years @ 125°C; read/write cycles up to 1 Million) • DLM (device
lock ...
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Memory IC's - EEPROM - 24C04P
.... 4K, 8K, 16K) Write Modes Partial Page Writes are Allowed
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Retention. ...
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EBA - Euan Barty Associates - View news
.... and significantly better reliability over the industry alternative
Flash cells ... multiple
lots supports in excess of five million ERASE/WRITE cycles and more
....
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Datatech: Industry News
.... remapping techniques virtually extends E-Disk's flash memory erase
.... average of 100
MBytes erase/write cycles per day ... performance loss and is a
million times more ...
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EEProductCenter.com :: 256-Kilobit (Kb) 3-volt nonvolatile ...
.... However, unlike EEPROM or Flash, no write delays are ... unlimited
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write cycles, whereas EEPROM wears out after approximately one million
cycles. ...
eeproductcenter.com/memory/ brief/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=21800363
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[PDF] MICROPROCESSOR
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
.... die has more than 500 million transistors and ... SRAMs in some
devices, some- thing
flash memory can ... relatively slow operation and limited number of
write cycles. ...
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.... These days, one can get EEPROM having write cycles measured in ...
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than a million writes. ... Most EEPROM and Flash devices are limited
to 10,000 ...
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.... Even for a regular flash. It is true that the number of write
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cards ... have yet to see a CF card which didn't survive beyond a
million writes ...
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MercadoLivre Brasil - Venda de PENDRIVE USB2.0 256MB PEN DRIVE ... - [
Translate this page ]
.... This Drive Will Hold Up To 180 FLOPPY DISKS. This is a flash
memory based, very
small, tiny, USB drive. ... Using time: More then 1 MILLION read/write
cycles. ...
www.mercadolivre.com.br/ jm/item?site=MLB&id=21122466 - 52k - Cached -
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MewTel에 오신 것을
환영합니다.
.... All AMD Flash Memory devices are guaranteed by AMD for a minimum
of one million
write cycles per sector and 20 years' data retention, making them the
most ...
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[PDF] Am29F800B
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
.... Write cycles also internally latch addresses and data needed for
the programming
and erase ... out of the device is similar to reading from other Flash
or EPROM ...
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Geek.com Geek News - Quantum mechanics in Flash memory
.... quickly or becoming useless after only a few read-write cycles.
.... a TV ad, where they
stick a flash card into a ... Famicom Mini games heading for 3 million
mark MAC ...
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Geek.com Geek News - Plastic memory
.... fewer transistors, typically only 0.5M (million) for 1GB ... been
demonstrated with 25
billion read/write cycles with minimal ... SRAM, about 1/3000th of
flash, 1/10th ...
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solid state disks on STORAGE search .com
.... $275 million to at least $325 million." ...M-Systems ... The
simpler hardware in flash
systems provides greater ... related to the number of write cycles
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CSD May 2000 Feature: Flash Memory Choices for Portable Designs
.... bus and were compatible with microprocessor read and write cycles.
.... a 0. For example,
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transistors ...
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File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
.... The ML2516 incorporates over 2 million cells. ... TARGET FEATURES
• Internal 2 megacell
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.... workhorse in almost all the 320 million PCs currently ... After
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.... See page 7 FLASH MEMORY page ... available only with 5V
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....
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Back issues of Eurotrade computer & communication monthly
.... has developed a USB flash drive, VGA card, external Combo device
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Crash-Survivable Memory Unit L-3 Communications: Electrodynamics ...
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[Dan Irwin]

these would be very good for making home-brued always on machines
which have no moving parts (aka home ___ server)

 

[Dan Irwin]

I was looking on froogle and these drives in stores go for upwards of
200? why are they so cheap on ebay

 

[J. Clarke]

I was looking on froogle and these drives in stores go for upwards of
200? why are they so cheap on ebay

He claims they're surplus to a project. Might have "fallen off a truck".

 

[Shailesh Humbad]

David Chien wrote:




In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap file,
which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running Windows
that's another story but then you're not running anything characteristic of
"most user environments".

What if we disable the swap file? I wonder if anyone has actually
tried running Windows on a flash disk, or if everyone has just been
scared off by the write-cycle limitation. I have an extra 256MB flash
card, maybe I will try running Win98 off it. A CF to IDE adapter
goes for less about $20.

WinXP embedded can run from flash disk:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/xpehelp/html/xetbsCompactFlash.asp