10000rpm or SATA-II?

E

Eyeball

Can anyone give me an answer to what will give best performance, an SATA
10000rpm drive or an SATA-II 7200rpm drive. Can't seem to find any SATA-II
drives that are 10000rpm and if there are any they will probably be out of
my price range. I've tried searching the web for the answer but with no
luck.

TIA
 
D

DaveW

The 10,000 rpm drive will have faster access times. The SATA II will have
higher transfer rates.
 
D

DevilsPGD

The 10,000 rpm drive will have faster access times. The SATA II will have
higher transfer rates.

Are there any 7200rpm drives on the market which can fully utilize SATA?
 
E

Eyeball

DaveW said:
The 10,000 rpm drive will have faster access times. The SATA II will have
higher transfer rates.

I understand that, but I can't decide which would be better to get. Which
would be better for me considering it is for my home computer or is there
not much difference overall?

The way I understand it, the faster access time would be better if I am
regularly accessing the drive but only for small amounts of data and that a
higher transfer rate would be better if I were accessing the drive for long
periods of time for large files? However, I have no idea what the difference
is for these for either a 10000rpm drive or SATA-II drive(ATA 300).
 
E

Eyeball

DevilsPGD said:
Are there any 7200rpm drives on the market which can fully utilize SATA?

If that were the case would there be any point in developing 7200rpm drives
with SATA-II?
 
D

DevilsPGD

In message <[email protected]> "Eyeball"
I understand that, but I can't decide which would be better to get. Which
would be better for me considering it is for my home computer or is there
not much difference overall?

The way I understand it, the faster access time would be better if I am
regularly accessing the drive but only for small amounts of data and that a
higher transfer rate would be better if I were accessing the drive for long
periods of time for large files? However, I have no idea what the difference
is for these for either a 10000rpm drive or SATA-II drive(ATA 300).

Actually a 10,000rpm drive will likely have faster access times as well
as higher transfer rates.

Looking strictly at the interfaces, SATA-II is faster then SATA.
However, since SATA is likely faster then either of the drives you're
looking at, the interface shouldn't be a big consideration.
 
V

VWWall

DevilsPGD said:
In message <[email protected]> "DaveW" <[email protected]>
wrote:




Are there any 7200rpm drives on the market which can fully utilize SATA?
I haven't seen any that can fully utilize PATA\100. ATA\133 is pure hype!
Most SATA drives are just the old PATA drives with new electronics.
Speed matters! RPM and atrial density control the rate "bits" flow
under the heads. SATA does have other advantages.
 
K

kony

The 10,000 rpm drive will have faster access times. The SATA II will have
higher transfer rates.


Will it?
Having a device on a bus with a higher potential (on paper)
doesn't always equate to any significant benefit in use.
The odds are quite high that given two similar drives,
except the only differences being one has 10K RPM but the
other SATA II, the higher RPM drive will have higher
transfer rates.
 
K

kony

I understand that, but I can't decide which would be better to get. Which
would be better for me considering it is for my home computer or is there
not much difference overall?

It would be worthwhile to consider ALL the parameters of the
alternatives, not just those mentioned. For example,
capacity. The 1/2 half of a 74GB drive may easy be same or
slower than the 2nd-5th of a 200+ GB drive.
The way I understand it, the faster access time would be better if I am
regularly accessing the drive but only for small amounts of data

OR concurrent access requests in multitasking environments
and that a
higher transfer rate would be better if I were accessing the drive for long
periods of time for large files?

"long" is relative.
Suppose you shave 10ms off from faster random access, that's
not going to require very long to be offset by a higher
transfer rate.

However, I have no idea what the difference
is for these for either a 10000rpm drive or SATA-II drive(ATA 300).

Perhaps you should back up and consider the use of the
system first, then use the technology that applies, rather
than trying to weight two specific drives (as this is what
it seems you're doing). Consider the most demanding uses.
Often that will be reading huge files or writing small ones.
Given a system with ample memory you're not going to be
waiting on the HDD to do a lot of OS reads after the first
time (something is read) till the cache is flushed- a sign
the system would've benefitted from more memory still.

If your uses require mostly read speed, you might even
benefit from a RAID 1 array, a couple of mere 7200 RPM
SATA(1) drives may do rather well, and redundancy is always
nice. On the other hand, if your usage is manipulating
large files or file-sets with a larger output file, 2 drives
as unique single volumes (just plain old vanilla
pair-of-drives) may be the fastest alternative. I would not
spend top-dollar to put only one single drive in a system,
rather at LEAST one other drive. If the budget isn't there
for one of them being high-end, then a pair of largest 7200
RPM SATA(1) drives that the budget allows.

When all is said and done though, if both drives were the
same capacity and only difference is one is SATA1 and 10K
RPM, the other SATA II 7K2 RPM, the SATA1 10K drive will be
faster in every parameter except very brief bursts from the
cache. In other words, in all the significant uses the 10K
drive will be faster.
 
C

Cuzman

Eyeball wrote:

" Can anyone give me an answer to what will give best performance, an
SATA 10000rpm drive or an SATA-II 7200rpm drive. "


Buy both. Get an SATA-150 Western Digital Raptor for OS and system use,
and a SATA-300 7200rpm drive for storage.
 
W

William W. Plummer

Eyeball said:
Can anyone give me an answer to what will give best performance, an SATA
10000rpm drive or an SATA-II 7200rpm drive. Can't seem to find any SATA-II
drives that are 10000rpm and if there are any they will probably be out of
my price range. I've tried searching the web for the answer but with no
luck.
The latency to start a transfer is 1/2 turn; therefore, the higher RPM
is desirable. Transfer rate is limited by the physical turning speed,
not the buss speed by a factor of 10. Buy what you need, not numbers.
(Mine is bigger than yours.)
 
C

Curious George

I don't understand all the dicking around here. The 10K Raptor is
definitely faster which AFIK is your only SATA 10K choice.

Why? Well you didn't ask this directly, but the question implies
confusion. So the oversimplified short answer is SATA II as of yet
does nothing particularly magical for a current disk. So SATA II
implies (for the most part) a next generation, true SATA drive as
opposed to an outrightly faster disk (like the 10K).

Is it the best fit for you/your budget? I don't know - but you
neither asked nor implied asking this & provided no information for
comment - so I'm not going to touch it.
 
C

Curious George

The latency to start a transfer is 1/2 turn

Average rotational latency is 1/2 turn after positioning of the
actuator (barring recalibration,off-track seek, etc.)

Most modern disks use track buffers that make rotational latency and
transfer times trivial on reads that don't require a seek.
; therefore, the higher RPM is desirable.

mostly. not always. depends on model/age & to some extent IO reqs
Transfer rate is limited by the physical turning speed,

+ aureal density
not the buss speed by a factor of 10. Buy what you need, not numbers.
(Mine is bigger than yours.)

Unless that's what he needs. <g>
 
C

Curious George

Will it?
Having a device on a bus with a higher potential (on paper)
doesn't always equate to any significant benefit in use.

no discernable benefit when either device individually is a fraction
of either interface speeds minus overhead & optimizations like NCQ
don't really pan out.
The odds are quite high that given two similar drives,
except the only differences being one has 10K RPM but the
other SATA II, the higher RPM drive will have higher
transfer rates.

It's not a matter or odds. The disk limits transfer rates, not the
interface.
 
K

kony

no discernable benefit when either device individually is a fraction
of either interface speeds minus overhead & optimizations like NCQ
don't really pan out.


It's not a matter or odds. The disk limits transfer rates, not the
interface.

Yes and no. No when the interface is a card or discreet
chip on a crowded PCI bus.
 
E

Eyeball

Curious George said:
I don't understand all the dicking around here. The 10K Raptor is
definitely faster which AFIK is your only SATA 10K choice.

Why? Well you didn't ask this directly, but the question implies
confusion. So the oversimplified short answer is SATA II as of yet
does nothing particularly magical for a current disk. So SATA II
implies (for the most part) a next generation, true SATA drive as
opposed to an outrightly faster disk (like the 10K).

So SATA II isn't much use yet. but will be in the future?
Is it the best fit for you/your budget? I don't know - but you
neither asked nor implied asking this & provided no information for
comment - so I'm not going to touch it.

Budget isn't too crucial, quite liked Cuzman's idea of having a 10K HDD for
OS and 7200rpm SATA drive for storage. So I would be aiming to spend around
£150 on both drives, probably the 37GB Raptor (£70ish) would be large enough
for OS and around a 200GB 7200rpm drive spending around £80. Buying multiple
10k HDDs and having RAID will at present be out of my budget, but if 10k
drives are to drop in price it is something I would consider waiting a bit
for.
 
C

Curious George

Yes and no. No when the interface is a card or discreet
chip on a crowded PCI bus.

Why? Because you heard someone else say so?
Because you _have_ to make a pissing contest out of _everything_?

If you must than the truth about your desperate attempt to appear to
have a clue & the last word is "yes & no." A bus can be quite crowded
without affecting transfer rates out of the disk subsystem (as usually
is the case). Even still the transfer rate of the disks involved are
still the same. What matters as far as _overall_system_throughput_ is
how _busy_ the bus is. There is only a small group of workloads where
you can saturate PCI. Even fewer where you can saturate it long
enough to matter. In those cases better HW that address this is
readily available.

But this has no real relevance to comparative performance of 10K vs
SATA2. You bring up a multi-disk, multi-device, high workload issue
that is disk-technology independent.

The OP asked a simple question based on confusion about what 10k &
SATAII bring to the table as far a performance. Citing everything you
ever heard, thought about, or learned about disk technologies &
purchases does not make for an honest, direct & accurate answer to
either me or the OP.
 
C

Curious George

So SATA II isn't much use yet. but will be in the future?

Current disks cannot saturate SATA 1. SATA II does not, in fact, mean
twice the bandwidth (3Gb/s). The additional bandwidth of 3Gb/s is
overkill for present & future drives for a few years.

NCQ, at present, does not appear to significantly affect performance.
But this is a new optimization. It is possible that better future
firmware, etc. might do this more intelligently.

Port Multipliers & Port Selector have nothing to do with performance
of an individual disk. They more easily deal with more complex
systems.

Lack of PATA to SATA bridges is more a SATA II thing but not
necessarily SATAII. IMHO that negligibly affects performance in most
cases.

Budget isn't too crucial, quite liked Cuzman's idea of having a 10K HDD for
OS and 7200rpm SATA drive for storage. So I would be aiming to spend around
£150 on both drives, probably the 37GB Raptor (£70ish) would be large enough
for OS and around a 200GB 7200rpm drive spending around £80. Buying multiple
10k HDDs and having RAID will at present be out of my budget, but if 10k
drives are to drop in price it is something I would consider waiting a bit
for.

A 10K for OS & Apps & a second large 7200 for data is a fine idea &
works very well in a lot of scenarios. Before this post none of us
would have any way of knowing what to suggest.
 
K

kony

Why? Because you heard someone else say so?
Because you _have_ to make a pissing contest out of _everything_?

Because it's true.
What's the point of spreading half-truths?
It's been proven true by many people, and if you had
bothered to read up on tech or test it yourself you'd have
also seen this.

Let's put it another way...

Why SATA or SATA II?
The increase in transfer rate from the faster bus, right?
What happens when a faster busses' sole interface to the
system is a SLOWER bus? What happens when that slower bus
has other traffic contention? Apparently you believe
there's a magic way to give a device more time on a bus than
is possible.

If you must than the truth about your desperate attempt to appear to
have a clue & the last word is "yes & no." A bus can be quite crowded
without affecting transfer rates out of the disk subsystem (as usually
is the case).

It can also effect the rate.
As I wrote, "yes and no".
Even still the transfer rate of the disks involved are
still the same.

Actually, NO.
Their _potential_ transfer is still the same, from the media
to the internal cache. Data can't leave that cache till the
drive controller's buffer is ready to accept more data,
after what it already has, has been moved off through the
PCI bus.
What matters as far as _overall_system_throughput_ is
how _busy_ the bus is. There is only a small group of workloads where
you can saturate PCI. Even fewer where you can saturate it long
enough to matter. In those cases better HW that address this is
readily available.

Yes, small group of very common workloads, like using a NIC
and soundcard, devices in every system. Using more than
one drive simultaneously will push that limit too. You
can't actually force 100% efficiency on the PCI bus either,
you will not get 133MB/s sustained.

But this has no real relevance to comparative performance of 10K vs
SATA2. You bring up a multi-disk, multi-device, high workload issue
that is disk-technology independent.

You wrote "disk limits transfer rates, not the interface".
OFTEN that is true but it's not at all uncommon for it to be
untrue. Ever notice a newer bus called PCI Express? What
did you think the purpose was behind it?

You haven't considered chipset inefficiencies either.
Take for example an Asus A7V333, it is common knowledge to
anyone who has owned one, that any device (PCI IDE card)
will have lower throughput even in isolated benches, than
same drive connected to the southbridge. Same is the case
with an SATA card and equivalent SATA HDD.

Like it or not, this can happen, IS observed even when the
drive is isolated. Some uses may not stress the PCI bus
otherwise, but others do. It's not hard at all to do so.
Ever noticed common problems like sound card stuttering?

The OP asked a simple question based on confusion about what 10k &
SATAII bring to the table as far a performance. Citing everything you
ever heard, thought about, or learned about disk technologies &
purchases does not make for an honest, direct & accurate answer to
either me or the OP.

Yes, you provided a simple yet inaccurate answer. If you
don't use a system aggressively enough to ever realize the
problem, that's fine. One might think given the OP's desire
for these higher performance options that it was actually
planned to be able to aggressively use the system.

Information is useful, this was nothing personal as I
would've written same thing regardless of who wrote (the
inaccurate statement).

It is VERY, VERY easy to see a difference. Perhaps you
never bother to benchmark on multiple platforms or
interfaces so you simply never noticed it. Instead of being
upset about the truth you might consider learning a little
then it might just benefit you too.
 

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