Without a flame please! Extreme Programming!

  • Thread starter Thread starter codemonk
  • Start date Start date
C

codemonk

Hi all,

Is there anyone else on this board that feels Extreme Programming (although)
making some great points is a little overcooked, extreme and just plain
nonsense at times?

Stede
 
Hi codemonk. I've not really looked too much into XP but I've been meaning
to for ages -so I would be VERY interested on your views AND WHY you have
come to those conclusions before I get started.

I'm sure others will have the intelligence not to flame you just because you
are expressing an opinion.
--
Best Regards,

Mark

Mark Broadbent

mcad,mcdba,mcse+i
emailto: newsgroupsATmettayyaDOTgotadslDOTcoDOTuk
remove AT with '@' and DOT with '.' -please do not send spam or address will
be changed!
 
I think as with all of the methodologies you have to pick and chose what
works for the particular solution you are providing. Some aspects of XP are
valuable, whaereas some (like pair programming) I don't care for, although
this does have a mentoring value.

Probably the best thing I get from XP is to only produce the artifacts that
will add value to your project. Personally I like a mix of XP and RUP.

Mike
 
Hi Stede,
Is there anyone else on this board that feels Extreme Programming (although)
making some great points is a little overcooked, extreme and just plain
nonsense at times?

To be honest, much of the heat surrounding XP comes from followers who
insist that it solves every problem, which it clearly does not. On the
other hand, the existing methods have been proven not to work. Adding more
and more project management, without good practices, has not yeilded lower
cost software or higher quality software or more timely software. Into the
vacuum caused by this lack of success, XP rode like a white horse, and many
people decided that "different is better because it's different."

The largest XP project, and the one that got the whole movement going, was
Chrysler's C3 project, and it failed (sometime after Kent published the
book). Perhaps that's why Kent Beck doesn't give many topics on XP any
more. He's seen the results too, and knows that no amount of hyperbole will
take a failing project and make it into a successful one.

Now that I'm done jumping on XP, let me say that I have become, over the
past few years, an "Agilist." In other words, I regularly use many of the
practices espoused in XP as well as other Agile methods like Scrum. In
fact, I have taken the time to become a Certified Scrum Master and I am
currently writing a book on the use of agile methods in Systems Analysis.

From my experience, I would encourage all readers to read Kent Beck's book:
"Extreme Programming, Embrace Change" (with a healthy dose of skepticism...
some of his conclusions are naive, but his practices are sound and many of
them work for small projects). Then, read "Agile Project Management with
Scrum" by Ken Schwaber. I have found that, by combining Scrum practices for
PM, with XP practices for development, your projects really do move faster,
and you really do deliver more for less, in a timely manner.

I almost don't believe it sometimes, but I look at my own project schedules,
and I see people who aren't working 80 hour weeks, and I software that has
extensive unit tests, and I see very few features that no one asked for, and
I see the business users involved in the decision making process. I see
things working like they should more so than ever before. (my organization
is still at little stuffy at the top, but at the bottom, the departments are
encouraged to "find a way that works, and make things work", so we've had
the ability to try this out.)

One success that I didn't expect: we've been busy exporting the Agile
processes to our vendors and employees in India. They were NOT prepared for
it, but have embraced the opportunity to provide better customer
satisfaction. I think it is working pretty well there now.

So, don't pan the entire Agile Alliance because of the sometimes "wild-eyed"
nature of some of the followers of XP. To do so would be like judging an
entire religion on the basis of a few radicals... it is neither fair nor
balanced. I do not believe that all of these processes work in all
scenarios. On the other hand, many do work in most scenarios, and some will
work to save a project that otherwise would fail, so this stuff should be
shared.

That's my opinion... this week anyway...

--- Nick
 
codemonk said:
Hi all,

Is there anyone else on this board that feels Extreme Programming
(although) making some great points is a little overcooked, extreme and
just plain nonsense at times?

Stede

Yep, but then thank God most of /GenX/ dropped out of the information
systems industry after the dotcom bust...

It's all very cool to have a bunch of chain wearing skateboard riding script
kiddies dictating design when there's too much money to say otherwise.
 
Yep, but then thank God most of /GenX/ dropped out of the information
systems industry after the dotcom bust...

You flatter me. I've had GenX'ers as employees... does that count?
It's all very cool to have a bunch of chain wearing skateboard riding script
kiddies dictating design when there's too much money to say otherwise.

hmmm... That was fair and balanced... :-)
Don't know about you, but in all the photos of the agile alliance I've ever
seen, there not a "script kiddie" in the bunch.

Do you have any feedback on the processes? Have you used any of them? What
did you experience on an actual project that YOU were on (not hearsay)?

--- Nick
 
Awsome reply Nick. Thanks for the realistic and clear answer. Most of my
experience comes from talking to the Extreme Programming Yahoo Group and the
comp.software.extreme-programming newsgroup.

I hate to say this but they seem almost like religious fanatics. Ganging
around their supreme cult leader Ron Jefrries. I acted like a jerk and
caused a few flames by accident (so I am no saint) but I guess it was out of
frustration.

Their views seem so stuck up. If you say anything that goes against their
views (and it seems like they are all consultants for some reason) then you
get 100 replies telling you that you are stupid and a troll. Amazing.

If this is what XP is like in practice then I will skip it, good or bad.
Maybe I am a Microsoft Baby and don't know what I am talking about.

Stede
 
Chris. Thank you so much for the link. I didn't know it was safe to oppose
XP. Are they dead yet? Do they still write about this stuff or are they
blacklisted from what is left of the programming community in America?

Stede
 
XP is everything that i am not.
It is just the straight opposite to how i think one should think about
development.
 
I think I found my new home. :-)

Stede

Dennis Myrén said:
XP is everything that i am not.
It is just the straight opposite to how i think one should think about
development.
 
Dennis Myrén said:
XP is everything that i am not.
It is just the straight opposite to how i think one should think about
development.

So does that mean you think automated testing and refactoring are bad
ideas? Some of the ideas of XP don't work, but there's no need to throw
the baby out with the bathwater.
 
Jon Skeet wrote:

So does that mean you think automated testing and refactoring are bad
ideas? Some of the ideas of XP don't work, but there's no need to throw
the baby out with the bathwater.

May I ask what ideas you think "don't work?"

Stede
 
Stede Troisi said:
May I ask what ideas you think "don't work?"

I think the "don't bother trying to work out how the class will be used
- just do the absolute minimum for the moment" idea is over-egged,
personally. I think it's worth putting time into the design of a class
before starting to code, partly to work out what the boundaries of its
responsibility are. Of course, depending on who you talk to, this may
or may not go contrary to the XP grain...
 
But maybe i also should have said:
Sorry, to whom it may offend.

Jon, i am sure there are some good things about it as well.
I myself, though, practices a different strategy in my development cycle.

--
Regards,
Dennis JD Myrén
Oslo Kodebureau
Dennis Myrén said:
XP is everything that i am not.
It is just the straight opposite to how i think one should think about
development.

So does that mean you think automated testing and refactoring are bad
ideas? Some of the ideas of XP don't work, but there's no need to throw
the baby out with the bathwater.
 
Dennis,

Any method or process, if taken to the extreme and applied blindly, can
eventually lead to a disaster. There is no substitute to common sense and
experience.

I worked in a project that applied XP, and it was a success. What does that
prove? Nothing, really. In that project we had a bunch of experienced
developers who would have delivered even with a plain old waterfall
methodology.

That said, there are things in XP programming that can truely improve
software quality, most notably automated testing and refactoring.

Regards,
Sami
 
I am sure there are some good things about it as well.
There is a lot of XP success stories out there.
I do not blame those who believe in it, although it does not attract me
personally.
 
Back
Top