Windows XPe - Sorry, Getting Feed UP

[Richard]

I'll tell you, This is another frustrating deal from Microsoft! Another
fine Product which is never geared around Productivity. Why in the world
can't you do simple things from one machine!

For Instance some of the BS.

Install XP Pro on the Target and Run TAP, if that is the case, a limited
version of XP Pro should come with it so we don't have to buy another $289
item.

XP will not partition CF Drives unless you get a utility from the CF
Manufacturer that changes a bit. If that is the case, why doesn't Microsoft
allow us to ignore that bit, evidently once the bit is changed Windows can
treat it the same.

Programs like BootPrep must be run in a pure Dos mode, well isn't that sweet
since everyone is doing away with DOS. Your telling me whatever Bootprep
does can be handled from with a Windows environment?

Everytime you turn around, it buy this or buy that or kludge this or here is
a workaround. And not fix all the freaking bugs in TD because they are
concentrating on Longhorn, what a crock. Fixing some of these bugs wouldn't
take that much effort.

A single tool should be able to prepare the disk and have it ready to boot
with your image. Not Build and Image to CF then have to boot into dos and
run bootprep then go boot the target. No more Dos and No More floppy's
but yet a high dollar piece of software like this requires both.

These folks are dealing with commercial companies which depend on these
products to work and work properly. No wonder development costs are sky
high!!!

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Richard,

I'll tell you, This is another frustrating deal from Microsoft! Another
fine Product which is never geared around Productivity. Why in the world
can't you do simple things from one machine!

Yes you can but no by default

XP will not partition CF Drives unless you get a utility from the CF
Manufacturer that changes a bit. If that is the case, why doesn't Microsoft
allow us to ignore that bit, evidently once the bit is changed Windows can
treat it the same.

100% Correct. But this is integrated and required feature for desktop OS-es, so user can easily unplug removable disk with minimum
(or no) data loss.
We are not in that segment of business and this is pain for us.
In DDK you have disk drivers changing this behavior is easy if you want that.

Programs like BootPrep must be run in a pure Dos mode, well isn't that sweet
since everyone is doing away with DOS. Your telling me whatever Bootprep
does can be handled from with a Windows environment?

100% Correct. Although this in not what you want to hear.
Due to limitations of BIOS and other software limitations each computer can see and have different disk geometry of the same disk.
So you need to bind each disk to specific BIOS.

Everytime you turn around, it buy this or buy that or kludge this or here is
a workaround. And not fix all the freaking bugs in TD because they are
concentrating on Longhorn, what a crock. Fixing some of these bugs wouldn't
take that much effort.

Sad but true.

A single tool should be able to prepare the disk and have it ready to boot
with your image. Not Build and Image to CF then have to boot into dos and
run bootprep then go boot the target. No more Dos and No More floppy's
but yet a high dollar piece of software like this requires both.

It took me months to make all this work as you describe it. (I must not say anything above this). M-Systems have solution that you
need, but it is intended only for their uDOC series of flash disks.


I feel with you, but we can only try to change this.

Best regards,
Slobodan

 

[KM]

Richard,

I agree with some of your points. I believe is that MS is working on many, many improvements in the tools area for LH embedded.

I'll tell you, This is another frustrating deal from Microsoft! Another
fine Product which is never geared around Productivity. Why in the world
can't you do simple things from one machine!

For Instance some of the BS.

Install XP Pro on the Target and Run TAP, if that is the case, a limited
version of XP Pro should come with it so we don't have to buy another $289 item.

Why don't use WinPE? It is free and it comes on XPe/SP1 1st CD.

XP will not partition CF Drives unless you get a utility from the CF
Manufacturer that changes a bit. If that is the case, why doesn't Microsoft
allow us to ignore that bit, evidently once the bit is changed Windows can treat it the same.

Many CF Manufacturer sell cards with already fixed bit set.

Programs like BootPrep must be run in a pure Dos mode, well isn't that sweet
since everyone is doing away with DOS. Your telling me whatever Bootprep
does can be handled from with a Windows environment?

You don't need Bootprep if you partition and format your target storage under XP Pro. This is true if you use FAT or NTFS.
I guess XPe docs are not clear about this.

Everytime you turn around, it buy this or buy that or kludge this or here is
a workaround. And not fix all the freaking bugs in TD because they are
concentrating on Longhorn, what a crock. Fixing some of these bugs wouldn't take that much effort.

This is not true. It is much effort when it comes to testing :-( It is all about available resources and business cases that promise
to pay off the efforts.

A single tool should be able to prepare the disk and have it ready to boot

It wouldn't be a good idea to do everyhting with a single tool. Then, as a XPe dev, you don't have much control over the process.

with your image. Not Build and Image to CF then have to boot into dos and
run bootprep then go boot the target. No more Dos and No More floppy's
but yet a high dollar piece of software like this requires both.

You don't need DOS if you have CD-ROM or USB option on your target (WinPE or XP Pro are options to go with).
However, there are many target devices that don't have CD-ROM included. They may have floppy option, thouhg. At least at development
time. As you can imagine, it is hard to fit XP or even WinPE on a floppy disk. That is why DOS is still around to be used with XPe.

These folks are dealing with commercial companies which depend on these
products to work and work properly. No wonder development costs are sky high!!!

The development costs for XPe is lower then, say, Linux Embedded. To create a complete solution with LE (I am not saying which is
better) you got to be more a developer. While in XPe world you don't need to know much about programming (well.. it always helps
anyway).

 

[Richard]

can treat it the same.

Many CF Manufacturer sell cards with already fixed bit set.

Yes, my Industrial Sandisk is already preset, but can you imagine in true
IDE Mode, hooked directly to the IDE Cable, you would have to power down
and reboot on each and every CF you copied? Not Hot Swappable.

You don't need Bootprep if you partition and format your target storage

under XP Pro. This is true if you use FAT or NTFS.

I guess XPe docs are not clear about this.

Maybe I'm missing something here. If you were to use NTFS, you would have
to have 1) a True IDE to CF adapter then
2) Partition and Format the CF 3) Copy the Image to it, 4)Turn Off the
computer, remove the CF, Install another CF, Boot the computer.

This is productive?

wouldn't take that much effort.

This is not true. It is much effort when it comes to testing :-( It is all

about available resources and business cases that promise

to pay off the efforts.

Ah, I didn't pay $1100 to Test the Development Kit, I paid the money to
build images and test the images I built and them rapidly deploy.

You don't need DOS if you have CD-ROM or USB option on your target (WinPE

or XP Pro are options to go with).

However, there are many target devices that don't have CD-ROM included.

They may have floppy option, thouhg. At least at development

time. As you can imagine, it is hard to fit XP or even WinPE on a floppy

disk. That is why DOS is still around to be used with XPe.

Nope, our embedded device has no provisions for Floppy. Not controller. I
could use a USB Adapter, but then I'd be right back to square 1. No CD
Either. The only time a CD was hooked up was to Install XP Pro and Run TAP.

high!!!

The development costs for XPe is lower then, say, Linux Embedded. To

create a complete solution with LE (I am not saying which is

better) you got to be more a developer. While in XPe world you don't need

to know much about programming (well.. it always helps

anyway).

Yes, I agree, because most everything you want to do with any of them
requires you to be a programmer. Very common reply in these newsgroups.
Oh, that can be done with the DDK.

I know Linuix has CF Tools that allow USB and CF to be managed. Our sister
company, which uses Linuix, and which tried to talk me into using linuix
copies CF all day long on a USB CF Writer.

A lot of this is simply me venting, but some of it just plain doesn't make
sense. If your doing several hundred or thousand of these devices, it
should be made very easy to duplicate the CF. (Actually it is except for
the BootPrep Tool).

Most of this could be handled, since the CF Come prepartioned, and
formatted, a USB Writer can do a copy of all the files to the CF, like we
currently do, but having to boot from DOS and Run Bootprep is for the
birds!!!.

Richard

 

[KM]

Richard,

Yes, my Industrial Sandisk is already preset, but can you imagine in true
IDE Mode, hooked directly to the IDE Cable, you would have to power down
and reboot on each and every CF you copied? Not Hot Swappable.

Well.. This is XP Pro architecture which was not developed with throughts of embedded applications.
This is why many of embedded developers don't consider XPe as a trully embedded OS but rather a componentized version of XP Pro.

under XP Pro. This is true if you use FAT or NTFS.


Maybe I'm missing something here. If you were to use NTFS, you would have
to have 1) a True IDE to CF adapter then
2) Partition and Format the CF 3) Copy the Image to it, 4)Turn Off the
computer, remove the CF, Install another CF, Boot the computer.

This is productive?

No, it is not :-(

I should have not mentioned "partition" there. Just formatting.
If you want to have only one partition with FAT or NTFS, you can do that with the XP Disk Manager.

wouldn't take that much effort.
about available resources and business cases that promise to pay off the efforts.

Ah, I didn't pay $1100 to Test the Development Kit, I paid the money to
build images and test the images I built and them rapidly deploy.

You should not have paid for the dev tools but rather try it with the Eval Kit (my own rule for an expensive product)

Nope, our embedded device has no provisions for Floppy. Not controller. I
could use a USB Adapter, but then I'd be right back to square 1. No CD
Either. The only time a CD was hooked up was to Install XP Pro and Run TAP.

The same (CD hook-up) you might do for the deployment, I think.
Anyway, I think I understand your problems. It would definitely help you much not dealing with the CF fixed/removable bit. :-(

create a complete solution with LE (I am not saying which is
to know much about programming (well.. it always helps

Yes, I agree, because most everything you want to do with any of them
requires you to be a programmer. Very common reply in these newsgroups.
Oh, that can be done with the DDK.

This is true for any OS. If you know how it works internally, you will be better with the OS build tools.
That is why I never trust advertisements that one don't have to be a developer to do "this and that".

I know Linuix has CF Tools that allow USB and CF to be managed. Our sister
company, which uses Linuix, and which tried to talk me into using linuix
copies CF all day long on a USB CF Writer.

I wonder if they work with CF removable or fixed? If so, it would be for MS to consider that as "a competitor already have it" item.

A lot of this is simply me venting, but some of it just plain doesn't make
sense. If your doing several hundred or thousand of these devices, it
should be made very easy to duplicate the CF. (Actually it is except for
the BootPrep Tool).

I agree. But at the same time, more handy tools from MS - less job positions for us, XPe devs

KM

 

[Andy Allred [MS]]

Disk #1 of the product has Winpe, that disk is bootable. Boot to it
then run TAP . Sorry you're frustrated but you don't *have* to install
Pro, but a lot of people that aren't familiar with drivers, class
installers, etc... find it much easier and simpler to do that.

 

[KM]

Konstantin,

One problem I think. What about possible different disk geometry on development and target device.

Agreed. It will be hard to pass by.

Well. I was actually thinking about running XP Pro on the target machine (Richard has mentioned that he hooked up a CD and was able
to install XP Pro there).
If it is not on the target, then probably only DOS (BIOS) is helpful.

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Konstantin,

I should have not mentioned "partition" there. Just formatting.
If you want to have only one partition with FAT or NTFS, you can do that with the XP Disk Manager.

One problem I think. What about possible different disk geometry on development and target device.

Regards,
Slobodan

 

[Jim Belant]

The development costs for XPe is lower then, say, Linux Embedded.

That definitely 'depends'. I agree with about everything that Richard said.

Too many hacks and patches to get this system working. Don't get me started
on the EWF.

I moved our product/team from WinXPe to Linux. We have more control and no
problem with any compact flash card we've thrown at it. No more EWF. USB
works (never got that going under XPe, and I Google'd the heck out of this
newsgroup).

Jim

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Jim,

With XPe you can force everything to work if you know how. I guess that same goes to Linux.
You should choose OS carefully depending on your needs and driver support available and needed.
I prefer programming microcontrollers in assembler (No OS-es in between, just me and hardware). But since some projects require
"multimedia" and I know great deal of Windows structure and all our programs were DOS and Windows oriented then for us XPe seemed as
logical choice.

Only you know what works the best in your case.

Regards,
Slobodan

 

[Andy Allred [MS]]

Sorry to hear you had too many problems, but i'm curious about your USB
issues, can you fill me in? I've seen you in the newsgroups asking and
helping others for about a year but the threads have been about CF, not
USB.

Thanks Jim, let me know if there is anything we can do to help.

 

[KM]

Jim,

That definitely 'depends'. I agree with about everything that Richard said.

Too many hacks and patches to get this system working. Don't get me started on the EWF.

Agree.

Although, reading some Lenux patch threads on usenet I came to conclusion that there are also many problesm that are still up in the
air.
Days ago I was struggling with a USB stack implementation (following 1.1 specs) and was searching Net for some good info. I was
supprised how many "patches" have been made in the Linux kernel to cover most of the USB devices. This may not be Linux related
problems, rather the USB device manufacturers' poor firmware implementation. But the point is that you sometimes need hacks and
patches on Linux as well.

I moved our product/team from WinXPe to Linux. We have more control and no

True. You've got most of the OS sources to play with. Not like with XP :-(

problem with any compact flash card we've thrown at it. No more EWF. USB
works (never got that going under XPe, and I Google'd the heck out of this newsgroup).

One big concern for many customers of ours when choosing OS was the drivers and applications support.
It is not a secret that Windows has drivers for most of devices on the market. Win32 developer community is also one of the biggest.
When you start a project, you can't not to think about it. Also, it is way too easier to find Windows programmers to hire than Linux
Embedded ones.
This is why I believe the development costs for XPe is lower than for LE.

 

[Jim Belant]

Sorry to hear you had too many problems, but i'm curious about your USB
issues, can you fill me in? I've seen you in the newsgroups asking and
helping others for about a year but the threads have been about CF, not
USB.

Hi Andy

I tried to get my WinXPe image to recognize USB 'pen' storage devices. I
never had any success. I included every component I could think of, based
on information I found in this newsgroup. I never had any success. It was
very easy for me to get this working in linux using hotplug. Every platform
has its own strengths and problems, but I have been able to get every
feature I needed working in linux. I can't say the same for WinXPe.

Thanks Jim, let me know if there is anything we can do to help.

Well, my build environment mysteriously started logging errors about a year
ago. There was a least one other person on this list with the exact
symptoms. I hadn't made any changes to the component database. The strange
thing was the images worked. Never did figure that one out. I did get some
replies from Microsoft reps, but the final recommended fix was 'reinstall'.
That recommendation is used way too often for my tastes.

Sincerely,

Jim

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Jim,

I tried to get my WinXPe image to recognize USB 'pen' storage devices.

I though that you had problem with booting from USB pen. But making it work was not a problem for anyone so far (at least I think
that).

Add:
"PnP (User - Mode)"
"Plug and Play Software Device Enumerator"
"USB Mass Storage Device"
all three "Disk Drive" components just to be on safe side.

And I will assume that you made other USB devices work so your usb is functional.
Also you can always consult setupapi.log for possible errors why your pen do not start.

Regards,
Slobodan

 

[KM]

Jim,

I am also surprised you couldn't get working a USB Pen device under XPe.
Making a bootable image on the Pen is a different story.

Well.. We can complain about USB Mass Storage Device driver implementation on XP but, to be honest, it gets its testing (and
patching) for pretty much any brand available on the market.
That means if you can recognize the Pen under XP Pro, you can definitely make it working on XPe. Just with the Mass Storage Device
driver and appropriate Disk and FS driver. And, of course, PnP support has to be in your image.