Why does that surprise anyone?

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richard

You'd think that they'd fix the major bugs in the OS before releasing
it, but they didn't do that. Instead the sneak the bug fixes into
"security updates" which may or may not make the OS more secure. They
don't provide any documenation with the OS, so one can't really
complain that it's not functioning properly, as there's no doc against
which to test it.

This clearly shows their design process to be faulty, as the user
manual ought to be the first thing, rather than the last, and the most
important, not the least, item to be published. That's why it's so
faulty. There's no specification against which a test can be designed,
so it's not tested.

Eventually, there'll have to be legislation requiring them to repair
all the flaws, or recall the product, just as the U.S. auto makers have
to do whenever they screw up. That way they'll finally be forced to
finish their job.

Richard
 
richard said:
You'd think that they'd fix the major bugs in the OS before releasing
it, but they didn't do that. Instead the sneak the bug fixes into

No reason to to so as the general public in america will get any new OS
MS puts out ASAP just becasuse its new.
 
Guess that is why Microsoft is forced to retire Windows 98, because no one
is using it any longer.

People (the majority) get a new operating system when they get a new
computer.

--
Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
 
richard said:
You'd think that they'd fix the major bugs in the OS before releasing
it, but they didn't do that. Instead the sneak the bug fixes into
"security updates" which may or may not make the OS more secure. They
don't provide any documenation with the OS, so one can't really
complain that it's not functioning properly, as there's no doc against
which to test it.

This clearly shows their design process to be faulty, as the user
manual ought to be the first thing, rather than the last, and the most
important, not the least, item to be published. That's why it's so
faulty. There's no specification against which a test can be
designed, so it's not tested.

Eventually, there'll have to be legislation requiring them to repair
all the flaws, or recall the product, just as the U.S. auto makers
have to do whenever they screw up. That way they'll finally be
forced to finish their job.

What bugs? And are you talking about Linux?

But, in general, there is no such thing as bug-free software. Never has
been, never will be.

As to "recalls," the auto manufacturers factor anticipated recalls into the
original price. Can you imagine the price of software if the authors had to
price "re-issues" into the original cost?
 
Richard said:
Guess that is why Microsoft is forced to retire Windows 98, because no one
is using it any longer.

People (the majority) get a new operating system when they get a new
computer.

--
Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Actually, Microsoft didn't retire Win98 earlier because it was in use by so
many customers overseas.
 
HeyBub said:
What bugs? And are you talking about Linux?
No he's talking about Windoze you Wintard.
But, in general, there is no such thing as bug-free software. Never has
been, never will be.
I haven't found any bugs yet running Ubuntu. Then if I did, I'd just report
them and they'd be promptly fixed and I wouldn't be pissed off because
Ubuntu didn't cost me anything. Windoze on the other hand is way
over-priced, put out by the richest software corporation in the world and
after 6 years shouldn't have any damn bugs left. At least not serious ones.
As to "recalls," the auto manufacturers factor anticipated recalls into
the original price. Can you imagine the price of software if the authors
had to price "re-issues" into the original cost?

You're an idiot.


--
Linux is ready for the desktop! More ready than Windoze XP.
http://tinyurl.com/ldm9d

You just can't play games on Linux!
http://tinyurl.com/kgszl
 
richard said:
You'd think that they'd fix the major bugs in the OS before releasing
it, but they didn't do that.

They can't be bothered to properly fix the broken 1980's DOS security model
in WinXP, so what makes you think that?
This clearly shows their design process to be faulty, as the user
manual ought to be the first thing, rather than the last, and the most
important, not the least, item to be published.

I thought paying programmers per line of code and docking them pay for not
meeting quota pretty much gauranteed bloat and bugs.
Eventually, there'll have to be legislation requiring them to repair
all the flaws, or recall the product, just as the U.S. auto makers have
to do whenever they screw up. That way they'll finally be forced to
finish their job.

According to one of my friends recently laid off from the Windows team as
well as recent TechWorld articles, Vista will be the last OS from
Microsoft. Microsoft pretty much admits it can't keep up with the security
problems of Windows any longer given the size of the codebase, and wants to
focus on their hardware lines and virtualization products.

If you want to get a new OS after Vista, you're gonna have to switch to
Linux or MacOS: Windows is being discontinued.
 
HeyBub said:
But, in general, there is no such thing as bug-free software. Never has
been, never will be.

Not true. Here's a totally, 100% bug-free (though admittedly entirely
useless) program in C off the top off my head:

hello.c follows:

#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
printf("Hello, world!\n");
return 0;
}

EOF
As to "recalls," the auto manufacturers factor anticipated recalls into
the original price. Can you imagine the price of software if the authors
had to price "re-issues" into the original cost?

I believe the saying "You can get worse software, but you'll only pay more"
applies here.
 
NoStop said:
No he's talking about Windoze you Wintard.

Go read the Linux Advocacy HOWTO, since it's obvious you lack clue in this
realm.
http://ursine.ca/cgi-bin/dwww/usr/share/doc/HOWTO/en-html/Advocacy.html
I haven't found any bugs yet running Ubuntu. Then if I did, I'd just
report them and they'd be promptly fixed and I wouldn't be pissed off
because Ubuntu didn't cost me anything.

Not sure about "promptly fixed" in Ubuntu, they're forking Debian. You
might want to use Debian directly if speed of fix is a concern for you.

Oh, and by the way, even Ubuntu says Ubuntu has bugs. Claiming otherwise
serves only to misinform and does a disservice to the Linux community as a
whole. Bugs should be acknowledged and fixed as quickly as possible, not
swept under the rug like you just pulled. Just because the bugs don't
adversely effect you much if at all doesn't mean they're not there.

http://ubuntu.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/ubuntu-bug-statistics-now-available-as-graphs/
Windoze on the other hand is way over-priced, put out by the richest
software corporation in the world and after 6 years shouldn't have any
damn bugs left. At least not serious ones.

It helps to understand that Microsoft programmers are paid by line of code
and get docked pay for not meeting weekly quota.
You're an idiot.

Please, if this is your idea of Linux advocacy, stop. Go away. What you
are doing is the opposite of help and a good demonstration why people like
you get scored down to -1 in short order on Slashdot and ignored at social
gatherings. You are counterproductive to the cause and serve only to piss
off Linux and Windows users alike.
 
Please quote in the order we all read English: Conversational order.
http://ursine.ca/Top_Posting

Richard said:
Guess that is why Microsoft is forced to retire Windows 98, because no one
is using it any longer.

Well, that, and nobody should be expected to support something forever when
there's a viable replacement. Debian only supports it's stable version for
24 months after release. Of course, the release cycle with Debian is a bit
snappier than Windows, averaging about once a year (give or take). There
isn't any reason to continue running Win98 at this point: It's old,
insecure and unsupported. Machines that can't go to a newer version of
Windows due to system requirements can be easily converted into a modern
Linux desktop in about an hour.
People (the majority) get a new operating system when they get a new
computer.

Currently, yes. This might change when Vista is EOL'd and people have to
choose something other than Windows for their next OS.
 
null2006 said:
Actually, Microsoft didn't retire Win98 earlier because it was in use by
so many customers overseas.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx

Microsoft says you're wrong.

Windows 98 lasted the normal 5-year Microsoft life cycle. DOS 6 might be
what you're thinking, though, it had a 7-year life cycle and is still in
wide use in physically secure, network-disconnected locations. Best
example of DOS 6 still in action would be the video ticket machines on
Portland, Oregon's MAX Light Rail system. These machines run the German
edition of Windows 3.11 and the German edition of DOS 6. These ticket
machines were installed on the MAX system in preparation for the West Side
MAX extension that opened fall of 1998.

The TriMet Trip Planning kiosks used to run MS DOS 6, though rumor has it
MSDOS is being phased out in favor of FreeDOS 1.0 now on those terminals.
 
Richard Urban wrote:
Well, that, and nobody should be expected to support something forever when
there's a viable replacement.

I used to wonder at the intensity of consumer protection in the US;
litigation at the drop of a coffee-cup, as it were. Then again, you
can count on ad-driven (and thus business-driven) media to ridicule
such judgements as vendors stifle nervous laughter.

For example, there was a cse where someone found a power drill on a
rubbish tip, took it home, plugged it in, and got an electric shock...
and then sued the company that made the drill.

Crazy, I thought - and then I thought a bit more. Suppose the case
discovered a larent design defect that would put all users of the
product at potential risk? If so, the judgement would be sound.


And that's the key to the question "how much longer must we support
old products?" - whether the fault is built-in to the way a products
is designed, or one that arises through "wear" in use. The latter's
limited to a warranty period, and with no stated warranty period,
defaults to whatever common-law rights you may have.

But if a design defect puts users at risk, it can (and perhaps should)
be argued that the responsibility exists as long as there are users
still using (and thus at risk from) the product. It would also be
seen as unacceptable to leverage these newly-discovered by
pre-existing defects to compel users to buy a replacement.


So; if your Win95 CD is scratched and won't read anymore, you wouldn't
expect MS to send you a new one for free, many years later.

But when the fundamental design is found to be dangerous, it's
different... or would have been, if standard "real manufacturing"
norms had been applied when all of this started.

Vendors would say "if you held us accountable to that degree, we'd
never be able to offer you the software you enjoy today", and that
would be true. We'd prolly have more modest functionality, but we
might have more safety. Chances are we'd have had a 2-3 year hiatus
in progress while everything was re-engineered to attain that.


The other perspective is that exploits are in fact "wear and tear", so
that a newly-discovered defect that was always there (but not known or
exploitred) is not an original design or manufacturing defect, but is
normal attrition. As more development effort is required
post-release, so "rental slavery" looms as an inevitable response.

It's also been said that bugs are the inevitable result of non-trivial
code, which means if you want bug-free code, keep it trivial. As
Linux, Windows and MacOS are all equally complex and made out of the
same stuff (especially "who needs to know how long the string is?" C),
we'd expect the same bug rate - and that's pretty much what we find.

The more widely-used the software, the faster it will "wear". If you
buy a new car, keep in in a garage, and drive it to town once a week,
it will last longer than if you used it to do non-stop long-distance
travel. By the same token, if you fragment your platform into
multiple dialects and the whole platform has a fraction of the
exposure as Windows, you'd attract less exploits.

A common mistake is to forget this, because this is usually the *real*
reason why certain types of exploit do not happen ITW. For example,
networking security aimed at keeping out intruders may appear to work
fine in the age of Ethernet, but fall apart when the natural hard
scope of cabling is shattered by WiFi. For another example, the
current babylon of different BIOS code may keep out BIOS-level
malware, but that could change in an EFI future.
Debian only supports its stable version for 24 months after release.
Of course, the release cycle with Debian is a bit snappier than
Windows, averaging about once a year (give or take).

Yup. There's a downside to constant updates, because each update is
effetively a new trust equation that invalidates any experience-based
assumptions on trustworthiness you may have had.

That doesn't apply to most of us because we lack the resources to
really study every byte of the code (as is possible in open source) or
watch every behavior (as one has to do with closed source, and should
do with open source as well).

Updates also tend to stomp all over settings and re-assert
functionalities you may have deliberately ripped out. So often it's a
trade-off; sacrifice the safety of non-default settings and deliberate
breakage of unwanted functionality, vs. exposure to new exploits.
Machines that can't go to a newer version of Windows due to
system requirements can be easily converted into a modern
Linux desktop in about an hour.

AFAIK not all Linuxes will run on the proverbial smell of an oil rag,
and you may have driver issues etc. I don't know how far back legacy
hardware support extends on a per-distro basis.
Yep.

Currently, yes. This might change when Vista is EOL'd and people have to
choose something other than Windows for their next OS.

It may happen in 2 years' time if MS sunsets support for XP SP2.

It happens as regularly in the Linux world, tho folks care less about
that for two reasons; it's free, and most linux users aren't fazed by
the geekery involved in "just" upgrading the OS.


------------ ----- --- -- - - - -
Drugs are usually safe. Inject? (Y/n)
 
That web site doesn't refute my statement at all. That policy came out only a
few months before they had planned to cease support for Win98, and IMHO was
intended to save face by putting an "official" end date "policy" in place.

Baloo wrote:

Microsoft says you're wrong.
 

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