vista backup: a complete pile of rubbish?

  • Thread starter Thread starter tonj
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tonj

either I'm missing something or the backup utiltity in windows vista is the biggest pile of junk I've ever seen. How could MS
include such toytown rubbish in their latest OS?
I can't find how to select specific files and folders to backup. I've been through the utility several times and all you can select
is a drive and a list of file types boxes with ticks in them. Am I missing something?
Thanks for any help.
 
tonj said:
either I'm missing something or the backup utiltity in windows vista is
the biggest pile of junk I've ever seen. How could MS include such toytown
rubbish in their latest OS?
I can't find how to select specific files and folders to backup. I've been
through the utility several times and all you can select is a drive and a
list of file types boxes with ticks in them. Am I missing something?
Thanks for any help.

And this feature makes it junk...how, exactly? For many people, it makes
backups much easier and therefore much more likely to happen.

Ken
 
Ken Gardner said:
And this feature makes it junk...how, exactly? For many people, it makes backups much easier and therefore much more likely to
happen.

but how do you select specific/exact files and folders that you want to back up?
 
Ken said:
And this feature makes it junk...how, exactly? For many people, it
makes backups much easier and therefore much more likely to happen.

Welcome to the fight to further the cause of dumbing-down the user - LED
BY MICROSOFT!
 
Welcome to the fight to further the cause of dumbing-down the user - LED
BY MICROSOFT!

This isn't dumbing down the user. This is making software easier for people
to use. Most of us back up our files by category (e.g. music, videos,
documents, pictures), not by file name or location. You gotta problem with
that? If you do, there are plenty of third party tools that will do the job
for you. Or just copy the damn folder or drive to your backup media
directly. This isn't rocket science.

Ken
 
Ken said:
This isn't dumbing down the user. This is making software easier for
people to use. Most of us back up our files by category (e.g. music,
videos, documents, pictures), not by file name or location. You gotta
problem with that? If you do, there are plenty of third party tools
that will do the job for you. Or just copy the damn folder or drive to
your backup media directly. This isn't rocket science.

The problem is they don't know how to leave well-enough alone. The
backup utility was just fine without them messing with it and it had
hope of at least familiarizing the user with his/her data on the drive -
"Do I back this up or do I back that up? What's this file for? I don't
recognize it."

It is, indeed, dumbing down the user - if anything, they should have
done this with the very first iteration of it and then added features -
it's like going from a fully grown adult back into the womb. I agree
that software should be easy to use, but this is a tad overboard...
 
but how do you select specific/exact files and folders that you want to
back up?

I don't know that the Vista backup program lets you select exact folders or
files. For that, just use Windows Explorer. Go to the exact folders or
files you want to back up, and simply copy them to your backup media.
Although this seems awfully tedious to me. If you have the hard disk space
to spare, what is the possible harm in backing up all of your data files
instead of only a select part of them? I don't get it. That's why I prefer
the Vista approach of simply copying specific types of files such as
documents, music files, or pictures.

Ken
 
The problem is they don't know how to leave well-enough alone. The backup
utility was just fine without them messing with it and it had hope of at
least familiarizing the user with his/her data on the drive - "Do I back
this up or do I back that up? What's this file for? I don't recognize
it."

You could count on a mangled hand the percentage of people who regularly
used a backup program prior to Vista. The XP backup program was often
confusing, even to someone like me who has been messing with some version of
Windows since 3.1 days. Vista makes the entire process automatic and easy.
Again, this isn't "dumbing down." This is intelligently redesigning the
program so that it works the way normal human beings would expect it to
work. Most people want to back up files by type or category, not by file
name or folder. There may be exceptions, but that's what they are:
exceptions. And for them, other methods exist, both within Windows Explorer
and through third party backup programs. Vista addresses the way most
people want to administer backups: automatically according to file type or
category.

The Vista backup design works. If, as you say, people don't "know how to
leave well-enough alone," then whose fault is it when something goes wrong?
That's like blaming your car for hitting someone from behind because you
were tailgating. If you try to change a design that works and then it stops
working, it's not Vista's fault. It's yours. No OS will protect anyone
from being a total dumbass.
It is, indeed, dumbing down the user - if anything, they should have done
this with the very first iteration of it and then added features - it's
like going from a fully grown adult back into the womb. I agree that
software should be easy to use, but this is a tad overboard...

I agree that they should have used the Vista approach from the beginning.
And again, it works. If someone needs more bells and whistles, plenty of
third party vendors will be happy to oblige. But speaking for myself, I
have plenty of better things to do with my time and money.

Ken
 
tonj said:
either I'm missing something or the backup utiltity in windows vista is
the biggest pile of junk I've ever seen. How could MS include such toytown
rubbish in their latest OS?
I can't find how to select specific files and folders to backup. I've been
through the utility several times and all you can select is a drive and a
list of file types boxes with ticks in them. Am I missing something?
Thanks for any help.

I agree with tonj subject line...

I fail to see a reason why a person should not be able to schedule a
complete backup of a folder or drive(s) that includes things like software
programs (EXEs/DLLs etc.)...I for one, had XP/MCE 2005 do a scheduled
unattended complete system backup each week to a USB drive...

Now in order to do that I have to upgrade to Vista Ultimate from Home
Premier? I had drive/folder backup functionality under XP, I no longer have
that functionality under Vista...My "UPGRADE" to vista left me unable to do
what I could very easily do under XP/MCE 2005...

GreenWing
 
Ken Gardner said:
And this feature makes it junk...how, exactly? For many people, it makes backups much easier and therefore much more likely to
happen.

Ken
but how do you select specific/exact files and folders that you want to back up? You can't do this.
this new backup design isn't going to make any difference to whether people are likely to use it. Of course they're not going to
use it, its useless.
 
In message (e-mail address removed),
tonj said:
but how do you select specific/exact files and folders that you want
to back up? You can't do this. this new backup design isn't going to make
any difference to whether
people are likely to use it. Of course they're not going to use it,
its useless.

Have to say that I agree with you 'tonj'.
Though, like Ken says, it is a nice feature to be able to back up certain
file types, like .DOC, .XLS and so on, it is missing a seriously chunk of
functionality if you can't pick specific directories to backup/exclude from
the backup!
 
MS go as far as they can with any built in utility, bearing in mind that if
a full blown utility was to be included, the company would find itself back
in court.. what is provided has to be a good thing for many users, but for
those who want more, there are programs available from 3rd party vendors..
 
Hmmm, I see your point about providing a full blown application, but the
ability to pick which directories you want to include in a backup would seem
to me to be an important part of even a basic backup application...

In message (e-mail address removed),
 
Right. Important but not essential.
ChrisM said:
Hmmm, I see your point about providing a full blown application, but the
ability to pick which directories you want to include in a backup would
seem to me to be an important part of even a basic backup application...

In message (e-mail address removed),
 
Chris

The line has to be drawn at a safe distance to prevent lawsuits.. MS has
little choice in the matter, or they pay up to keep flagging software houses
in business.. it is cheaper to let the 3rd party vendors have the run, and
let them try to sell badly written and underdeveloped utilities on their own
merits..
 
"tonj" wrote:
If you have the hard disk space to spare, what is the possible harm
in backing up all of your data files instead of only a select part of them?

Define "data".

Why would you need to restore a "data" backup?
- unexplained data corruption
- hardware failure
- site disaster
- theft of PC

OK, what might cause unexplained data corruption? One of the big
reasons might be a malware payload. Are you sure your "data" backup
excludes the same malware that trashed the data last time?


--------------- ---- --- -- - - - -
Saws are too hard to use.
Be easier to use!
 
"cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)"wrote:
Define "data".

Personal documents, music files, image files, .pst files (and their Windows
Mail equivalents, if applicable) -- anything that you would want to save
over the long-term.
Why would you need to restore a "data" backup?
- unexplained data corruption
- hardware failure
- site disaster
- theft of PC

For me, it's mostly for clean installs if I tinker a bit too much and end up
buying the farm. Also, if I make some dumbass mistake and end up deleting a
file, I can quickly retrieve it from the backup. None of the things you
list here has ever been an issue for me.
OK, what might cause unexplained data corruption? One of the big
reasons might be a malware payload. Are you sure your "data" backup
excludes the same malware that trashed the data last time?

I don't have malware payload issues either. It's all connected. Backup up
your data files is part of an overall integrated approach to system
maintenance and performance. You cannot focus on any one thing while
ignoring everything else, especially something as basic and important as
sytem security.

Ken
 
Er... MS Backup has always sucked:
- can obly be read by their own backup app
- backup app is version-bound, i.e. to a particular Windows version
- backup app needs Windows to run
- so you have to "just" re-install Windows to run it
- can't overwrite Windows from Windows
- so can't restore a "full system backup"
- no support for contemporary storage (CDR etc.)
- poor or absent ability to span multiple volumes
- historically, poor or even absent compression
- not included in "home" editions of the OS

The only mystery is why anyone took it seriously in the first place.

Generically, the ways of selecting material to back up include:
- everything; the "full system backup"
- everything since last backup; i.e. incrimental backups
- everything in a certain location, with or without subdirs
- everything of a particular file type, wherever it may be
- a whitelist of particular specified files or wildcards
- a blacklist of particular specified files or wildcards to exclude

These strategies can be combined, e.g. "all files within subtree
Documents that were changed or created since date X, but exclusing any
infectable or code file types".

The challenges are:
- to present this complex logic via an intuitive UI
- to ensure all files can bebacked up
- to store material in a generically usable way
- to secure material against unauthorised access
- to manage media limitations and errors
- to navigate stored data for piecemeal restore
- to restore material without pre-existing material

Further, you have to be mindful of the contingencies one is backing up
to protect against, and tailor backups to these...
- complete system meltdown, restore to same hardware
- new system, restore to different hardware
- restore only data, avoiding any malware
- restore everything except data, e.g. re-deployment of PC
- restore arbitrary individual files, for accidental deletion etc.

The traditional backup app doesn't provide off-the-peg matches for the
above scenarios, i.e. no easy templates of what to scope in (e.g.
data) and out (e.g. version- or hardware-bound code) of the backup.

You have to apply that awareness to a lower level of abstraction that
simply selects dirs, files, etc. as above, possibly with some
date-based or change-tracked management for incrimental backups.

Most folks want a backup of "everything", and there are ways to do
that, though the challenge is a happy point between having to leave
the OS to capture a proper at-rest state of the installation that can
be restored without an OS footprint, and the convenience of doing the
backup within the OS while the OS is in a transient state.

The problems arise on restore; typically, that restoring the backup
kills live data or reverts this to an earlier time, thus losing work
for which no backup exists.

Also, the backup may restore the problem state, i.e. data that was
corrupted before the backup was made, malware that had stayed inactive
to permeate backups before payload date, etc.

NTFS provides an improved form of file access that is less bound to
location - in fact, location is now something of an arbitrary
parameter applied to files in the same way as type or date metadata.

Further, NTFS can be nearly as efficient when selecting files via
non-unique identifying attributes, such as type, date, or an unbounded
set of arbitrary tags.

If this begins to look like a database, with the real file data as a
large binary field attached to the record, well... it is. Vista stops
short of formalizing SQL into the file system, as WinFS was designed
to do, but it does go far to leverage the evolving NTFS design in an
attempt to out-Google Google, if you know what I mean.

Selection by type, rather than by location, fits the above... but
effective backup's a more complex beast than the simplistic "just make
backups" advice would suggest, for reasons outlined above.
I fail to see a reason why a person should not be able to schedule a
complete backup of a folder or drive(s) that includes things like software
programs (EXEs/DLLs etc.)...

Code files are a bad idea to back up with data, because:
- they can act as malware infection vectors
- they will usually be version- or hardware-bound
- they may be useless without related registry settings etc.

My approach is to automate backup of small user-generated data, in a
way that excludes incoming material (malware risk), code, and bloated
non-crucial material such as music, videos and pictures.

I do this by:
- keeping data location free of any of the above unwanted material
- automating a Zip archiver to archive this elsewhere on HD
- retaining the last 5 of such backups
- pulling similar backups from other PCs on the LAN
- interactively dumping these backups to USB or optical disk

The nice thing about .ZIP as a backup format is that anything can read
it, making it accessible and restorable across a massive range of OSs
and hardware platforms. Of course from a security perspective, this
is what is also wrong with this approach ;-)
Now in order to do that I have to upgrade to Vista Ultimate from Home
Premier? I had drive/folder backup functionality under XP, I no longer have
that functionality under Vista...My "UPGRADE" to vista left me unable to do
what I could very easily do under XP/MCE 2005...

You aren't obliged to use MSware; look for a free archiver or backup
utility that meets your needs, or write a batch file to automate such
tools, or do it interactively using Windows Explorer.

You can use the Search if you want to mimic Vista Backup's select by
type, but that will also flatten the location tree and give rise to
same-name collisions, so maybe Vista Backup has a role after all.

The mystery to me is why MS ASSumes home users don't need backups.

I find that really insulting, as in "oh you home people aren't
business, you can't possibly create anything of value that's worth
backing up". I'd have thought home users who have 1 PC used for a
wide range of often-risky activities my multiple users, and who have
no magic pro-admin'd server holding data, would REALLY need backup.


--------------- ---- --- -- - - - -
Saws are too hard to use.
Be easier to use!
 
Most of the characteristics you describe of Windows backup apply as well to
many enterprise class backup solutions costing thousands of dollars. They
are not limitations at all.

Some of the statements you make are inaccurate. See below:

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) said:
Er... MS Backup has always sucked:

It is actually pretty good until Vista. It can backup a portion of your
files, or all of your files including your system state.
- can obly be read by their own backup app

As is the case with any backup program I have ever used except simple file
copy backup programs.
- backup app is version-bound, i.e. to a particular Windows version

So what - even if true, and it may not be. We know that Windows XP backup
has been successfully copied and used in Vista. Windows 2003 Server version
looks to be virtually the same as Windows XP version to me. I don't know if
they would be interchangeable or not but that takes us back to, so what?
Windows backup has been included in every version of Windows I have used
since 95 and NT4. I never used NT3.5 so I can't say about that. If you
always have it included with Windows, why do you care if a version from a
different version of Windows works or not?
- backup app needs Windows to run

As is the case with most enterprise class backup programs even those costing
thousands of dollars. So what?
- so you have to "just" re-install Windows to run it

Takes about an hour. No big deal.
- can't overwrite Windows from Windows
- so can't restore a "full system backup"

I've done full system restores using Windows Backup. So what if it didn't
overwrite loaded DLLs? They were freshly re-installed and mostly didn't
need overwriting anyway.
- no support for contemporary storage (CDR etc.)
- poor or absent ability to span multiple volumes
- historically, poor or even absent compression

Can't say for sure on this one. You may have been right on one point. I
always do my backups when using Windows Backup to a portable drive or a
network drive.
- not included in "home" editions of the OS

That's not the fault of the backup program and reflects on it in no way at
all.

The nice thing about .ZIP as a backup format is that anything can read
it, making it accessible and restorable across a massive range of OSs
and hardware platforms. Of course from a security perspective, this
is what is also wrong with this approach ;-)

Zip, as a backup tool, is a joke. Try restoring your system state from
Windows XP Pro to Windows XP Home from a Zip file backup. Ummmm.. Can't be
done. Get real.

Dale
 
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