TINA - DAILY RATES FOR ACCESS DATABASE CREATION

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tina Marie
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T

Tina Marie

Hello all ... I am curious about what the average price should be to build an
access database ... since this site has people signing on all over the world
.... let's say keep it in U.S. dollars ... what would you consider a fair
price per diem or half day?

Any thoughts re an hourly rate too?
 
Generally rates are hourly. In the US, I've seen as low as $50 and as high
as $180 for Access development fees. Keep in mind that the lower rates are
generally less productive. Anyone paying less than $100 per hour can
generally expect many more hours to produce the same level of work.

Typically, those who charge more also have large code libraries so the net
cost to the client can be far less than even the most prolific amongst the
newer developers.
 
Hello all ... I am curious about what the average price should be to build an
access database ... since this site has people signing on all over the world
... let's say keep it in U.S. dollars ... what would you consider a fair
price per diem or half day?

Any thoughts re an hourly rate too?
Click to expand...

I've - once - bid a fixed price contract for a database. It was a mistake, and
I ended up delivering a product that satisfied the customer but I took a
beating on the hours. Asking "how much should a database cost" is like asking
"how long is a piece of string".

I don't discuss my own consulting rates on the group, but I can say "Read
Arvin's post, he's right on the money" in both senses of the phrase.
 
Thanks Arvin ... good to know!
--
Thanks!!

T. Marie


Arvin Meyer MVP said:
Generally rates are hourly. In the US, I've seen as low as $50 and as high
as $180 for Access development fees. Keep in mind that the lower rates are
generally less productive. Anyone paying less than $100 per hour can
generally expect many more hours to produce the same level of work.

Typically, those who charge more also have large code libraries so the net
cost to the client can be far less than even the most prolific amongst the
newer developers.
Click to expand...
 
Yes ... I think I'm going through the same thing right now ... that's why I
asked ... thanks for the info ... T.
 
Worse even than fixed price contracts are contracts with a clause specifying
"not to exceed" You are limited at the top end, but not at the bottom, so
the client gets 100% of the benefit for you being more efficient, but you
absorb 100% of the liability if the contracts goes over budget.
 
Agreed ... so how does one get around this? Right now I'm doing a database
that was initially given 7 days ... then they wanted more ... so I was able
to get another 6.5 days ... but to that I had to put 'fixed rate' ... well
.... since that 4 page set of modifications, I have been given another 2 pages
of modifications to the modifications and now they are asking for more
changes ... this could go on forever and ever ... so I said 'no' to this ...
their requests were new or modification was considered 'new' ... they have
only got back today and we are going to discuss it tomorrow ... but I think
they will argue that I agreed to 'fixed rate' to complete the database ...
how do you define 'complete database' ... they are an ever changing creature
.... any suggestions ... ta ... Tina
 
Tina Marie said:
Agreed ... so how does one get around this? Right now I'm doing a database
that was initially given 7 days ... then they wanted more ... so I was able
to get another 6.5 days ... but to that I had to put 'fixed rate' ... well
... since that 4 page set of modifications, I have been given another 2 pages
of modifications to the modifications and now they are asking for more
changes ... this could go on forever and ever ... so I said 'no' to this ...
their requests were new or modification was considered 'new' ... they have
only got back today and we are going to discuss it tomorrow ... but I think
they will argue that I agreed to 'fixed rate' to complete the database ...
how do you define 'complete database' ... they are an ever changing creature
... any suggestions ... ta ... Tina
Click to expand...

Well, you gotta be polite but tough and tell them that 4 pages of
modifications took care of the 6.5 days.

This is a problem that all construction, especially renovation, folks
face. The client changes the mind or something happens along the way.
And you have to get the client to agree to the changes which means
added expense to them.

And, if you have to, then you eat a day or two and learn from the
experience.

Tony
 
In the consulting profession it's called "scope creep". Generally those that
do this are very poor clients and will argue at billing time that they
didn't get what they expected. You may not get paid at all. It happens.

My advice. Assuming you have finished that part, submit a bill for what was
agreed to in the first contract. When and if you get paid, tell them that
because of the scope creep, you are unable to continue working on a fixed
price basis and will need to do further work on an hourly basis. Give them a
fair price for your hourly time.

If they pay for what you've done and refuse to deal on an hourly basis, walk
away. If they don't pay, and it's a considerable sum, consult an attorney,
or for lesser amounts small claim court might be the solution. Or it just
might be that you've learned an expensive lesson, and you'll need to cut
your losses.

In any case, you cannot continue to be taken advantage of.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access
http://www.accessmvp.com


Tina Marie said:
Agreed ... so how does one get around this? Right now I'm doing a
database
that was initially given 7 days ... then they wanted more ... so I was
able
to get another 6.5 days ... but to that I had to put 'fixed rate' ... well
... since that 4 page set of modifications, I have been given another 2
pages
of modifications to the modifications and now they are asking for more
changes ... this could go on forever and ever ... so I said 'no' to this
...
their requests were new or modification was considered 'new' ... they have
only got back today and we are going to discuss it tomorrow ... but I
think
they will argue that I agreed to 'fixed rate' to complete the database ...
how do you define 'complete database' ... they are an ever changing
creature
... any suggestions ... ta ... Tina
Click to expand...
 
I once worked for a prime contractor (who was much younger and less
experienced than I). Time after time, I had advised "never agree to fixed
price". But, on a very major project (about $100,000 total) for a huge
enterprise, the IT department put enough pressure on him that he agreed to
fixed price. We did all the work, he paid us subs, and would have had a tiny
profit; but the client kept coming back for reams and reams more
documentation, and he eventually ended up personally doing about $25,000
worth of work for free.

His reasoning had been that if he did not agree to fixed price, he would not
get that work and would never get any more, either. But, it turned out
that, due to a corporate merger/acquisition, he never got any more work,
anyway. Did the IT department have a clue that the application was going to
be trashed within a few months after that? I don't know, but I do know that
was the first step in driving him out of business. He went to work for
someone else for a while to recover financially, though, and now is back in
business for himself, wiser, I hope, about the type of contract he accepts.
Or maybe his wisdom is "don't do development work" -- he's doing network and
infrastructure support now. <GRIN>

I still give the same advice (in full agreement with Arvin): never agree to
a fixed-price contract, unless it is self-timing "the following four-hour
class"; never, under any circumstances, agree to a "best estimate with fixed
upper limit" contract.

Larry


Arvin Meyer MVP said:
In the consulting profession it's called "scope creep". Generally those
that do this are very poor clients and will argue at billing time that
they didn't get what they expected. You may not get paid at all. It
happens.

My advice. Assuming you have finished that part, submit a bill for what
was agreed to in the first contract. When and if you get paid, tell them
that because of the scope creep, you are unable to continue working on a
fixed price basis and will need to do further work on an hourly basis.
Give them a fair price for your hourly time.

If they pay for what you've done and refuse to deal on an hourly basis,
walk away. If they don't pay, and it's a considerable sum, consult an
attorney, or for lesser amounts small claim court might be the solution.
Or it just might be that you've learned an expensive lesson, and you'll
need to cut your losses.

In any case, you cannot continue to be taken advantage of.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access
http://www.accessmvp.com






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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 
I still give the same advice (in full agreement with Arvin): never
agree to a fixed-price contract, unless it is self-timing "the
following four-hour class"; never, under any circumstances, agree
to a "best estimate with fixed upper limit" contract.
Click to expand...

I would say never agree to a fixed-price contract without
renegotiation stages built into the project. That is, milestones
where you sit down and tell them what's possible for the original
estimate and how much else it will cost to get them what they want.

The only alternative to this is for them to pay me to spend several
days writing a detailed spec (which I hate doing, to be honest) from
which I can then do a decent estimate. Then, they are 100% locked
into the spec if they don't want to pay more. Most clients when
offered this versus the fixed price with renegotiation points choose
the latter.

And the only one that ever did the opposite ended up abandoning the
app before completion (it was very close to completion, but a change
of manager caused them to stop honoring the contract, i.e., changes
to the original spec had to be paid outside the fixed price).
 
I agree that the only way to consider fixed price is with a fixed and
thorough specification. The contract specifies that ANY modification to the
spec is a change order with cost to be negotiated. I also tell clients that
if they want a fixed price, I have to make that fixed price substantially
higher than my best estimate for the cost, to reduce my vulnerability to an
acceptable level. The couple of times a client still chose fixed price, due
to organizational policies prohibiting any other arrangement, I came out
pretty much ok.
 
Tina Marie said:
Hello all ... I am curious about what the average price should be to build
an
access database ... since this site has people signing on all over the
world
... let's say keep it in U.S. dollars ... what would you consider a fair
price per diem or half day?

Any thoughts re an hourly rate too?
Click to expand...
 
David W. Fenton said:
I would say never agree to a fixed-price contract without
renegotiation stages built into the project. That is, milestones
where you sit down and tell them what's possible for the original
estimate and how much else it will cost to get them what they want.

The only alternative to this is for them to pay me to spend several
days writing a detailed spec (which I hate doing, to be honest) from
which I can then do a decent estimate. Then, they are 100% locked
into the spec if they don't want to pay more. Most clients when
offered this versus the fixed price with renegotiation points choose
the latter.

And the only one that ever did the opposite ended up abandoning the
app before completion (it was very close to completion, but a change
of manager caused them to stop honoring the contract, i.e., changes
to the original spec had to be paid outside the fixed price).
Click to expand...

IMNSHO, it is impossible to write a tight enough contract and specification
to prevent the possibility of hassles over a "fixed price contract" that far
outweigh the benefits of getting that contract. If you have consistently
avoided such hassles, I suspect you have a better relationship with your
clients than some organizations have over the years.

I've seen some very large, very expert contracting organizations buy
themselves trouble... they had technical experts to write a spec and
incredibly able attorneys to draw the contract and still wished they had
walked away, before it was done.

I'd try to accomplish what you did with a time and materials contract,
providing for agreement on requirements and design, frequent reporting, and
a change control procedure to deal with any modifications to the agreed
requirements and design. If you do that in sufficiently small "chunks", you
can apply "agile" techniques -- which, again IMNSHO, aren't really a new and
unique approach, but only adapted the size of the increments in Rapid
Application Development (RAD).

Larry Linson
Microsoft Office Access MVP
 
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