SP2 Installation Problem

  • Thread starter Thread starter Barry Watzman
  • Start date Start date
B

Barry Watzman

A friend has a Dell Dimension 8300 and I'm trying to help her install
SP2. She's 500 miles away, so we are using remote assistance, but we
shut it down during the install.

The install is being done from the full 270 MB Gold installation file.
The system is running XP Home, Dell's OEM edition.

Each time we install (tried it twice so far), about 70% of the way
through the install, we get a yellow alert in the system tray with a
popup saying that a file is corrupt and can't be read. The file is
given as "C:\$MFT". The installation ends up saying that it encountered
an error and could not be completeted successfully. But, on restart,
SP2 SEEMS to be installed completely (no way to verify the "completely"
part, really, but it says SP2 in Control Panel / System and the firewall
and other SP2 features are present and operating).

The warning says to run Chkdsk, which we have done (multiple times)
during startup. No errors are reported.

What's odd is that as far as I can tell, there is no file C:\$MFT. Yet
the warning box about this file keeps coming up even after we reboot,
and it continues to come up from time to time during routine operation
of the system.

We redownloaded SP2 itself (the 270 MB file), but FC (file compare --
old command line utility) says that it's the same as the original file.

Anyone have any ideas?

Also, the Dell system has a 36MB hidden FAT partition, it's the 1st
partition on the drive (C: and D: take up the rest of the 80 gig drive,
both NTFS). Anyone know what it is, and if there's an easy way to
access it and see what's in it?

We are thinking of blowing everything away and starting over with a
generic installation, but I'd rather not do that if we can get
completely comfortable with the current installation.
 
Barry said:
A friend has a Dell Dimension 8300 and I'm trying to help her install
SP2. She's 500 miles away, so we are using remote assistance, but we
shut it down during the install.

The install is being done from the full 270 MB Gold installation file.
The system is running XP Home, Dell's OEM edition.

Each time we install (tried it twice so far), about 70% of the way
through the install, we get a yellow alert in the system tray with a
popup saying that a file is corrupt and can't be read. The file is
given as "C:\$MFT". The installation ends up saying that it encountered
an error and could not be completeted successfully. But, on restart,
SP2 SEEMS to be installed completely (no way to verify the "completely"
part, really, but it says SP2 in Control Panel / System and the firewall
and other SP2 features are present and operating).

The warning says to run Chkdsk, which we have done (multiple times)
during startup. No errors are reported.

What's odd is that as far as I can tell, there is no file C:\$MFT. Yet
the warning box about this file keeps coming up even after we reboot,
and it continues to come up from time to time during routine operation
of the system.

We redownloaded SP2 itself (the 270 MB file), but FC (file compare --
old command line utility) says that it's the same as the original file.

Anyone have any ideas?

Also, the Dell system has a 36MB hidden FAT partition, it's the 1st
partition on the drive (C: and D: take up the rest of the 80 gig drive,
both NTFS). Anyone know what it is, and if there's an easy way to
access it and see what's in it?

We are thinking of blowing everything away and starting over with a
generic installation, but I'd rather not do that if we can get
completely comfortable with the current installation.
Click to expand...

SP2 has been causing loads of trouble.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=884130

You might want to reconsider. If you keep your AV up to date and run a
third-party firewall, you'll have all the protection you need.
ZoneAlarm available free here:
http://www.zonelabs.com/store/content/company/products/znalm/freeDownload.jsp
 
Sorry, I've installed it on a about a dozen systems, this is the only
problem I've seen, I don't believe it's an SP2 problem per se, and I
philosophically don't agree with you, in fact I think that SP2 is an
excellent piece of software.
 
Well, "$MFT" is the master file table. Essentially, the root directory.
So now I'm beginning to think that blowing everything away and
starting over is the way to go.
 
I agree iut installs fine. The problems result when AV programs and/or a
firewall is running while doing the install. The best way is not to use aut
download and use the gold version for it professionals which works just as
well for a single machine.

I've followed a lot of users who report problems and most of them have
programs running in the background or even being on line when doin the
install. Your friend may want to uninstall sp2 and try again with everything
shut down. That includes programs that are loaded but seem to be shut down.
 
The problem you are experiencing is totally unrelated
to SP2. For a possible solution, please read:
http://forum.gladiator-antivirus.com/index.php?showtopic=10769

I would suggest performing the following maintenance prior to
installing SP2:

Description of the Disk Cleanup Tool in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;310312&Product=winxp

How to Perform Disk Error Checking in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;315265&Product=winxp

HOW TO: Analyze and Defragment a Disk in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;305781&Product=winxp

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User

Be Smart! Protect Your PC!
http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/protect/default.aspx

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:

| A friend has a Dell Dimension 8300 and I'm trying to help her install
| SP2. She's 500 miles away, so we are using remote assistance, but we
| shut it down during the install.
|
| The install is being done from the full 270 MB Gold installation file.
| The system is running XP Home, Dell's OEM edition.
|
| Each time we install (tried it twice so far), about 70% of the way
| through the install, we get a yellow alert in the system tray with a
| popup saying that a file is corrupt and can't be read. The file is
| given as "C:\$MFT". The installation ends up saying that it encountered
| an error and could not be completeted successfully. But, on restart,
| SP2 SEEMS to be installed completely (no way to verify the "completely"
| part, really, but it says SP2 in Control Panel / System and the firewall
| and other SP2 features are present and operating).
|
| The warning says to run Chkdsk, which we have done (multiple times)
| during startup. No errors are reported.
|
| What's odd is that as far as I can tell, there is no file C:\$MFT. Yet
| the warning box about this file keeps coming up even after we reboot,
| and it continues to come up from time to time during routine operation
| of the system.
|
| We redownloaded SP2 itself (the 270 MB file), but FC (file compare --
| old command line utility) says that it's the same as the original file.
|
| Anyone have any ideas?
|
| Also, the Dell system has a 36MB hidden FAT partition, it's the 1st
| partition on the drive (C: and D: take up the rest of the 80 gig drive,
| both NTFS). Anyone know what it is, and if there's an easy way to
| access it and see what's in it?
|
| We are thinking of blowing everything away and starting over with a
| generic installation, but I'd rather not do that if we can get
| completely comfortable with the current installation.
 
Barry said:
Sorry, I've installed it on a about a dozen systems, this is the only
problem I've seen, I don't believe it's an SP2 problem per se, and I
philosophically don't agree with you, in fact I think that SP2 is an
excellent piece of software.
Click to expand...

The philosophy of not relying on MS to protect your computer is better than
its opposite.

Being behind a good firewall, and having a up-to-date AV is MORE important
than installing MS's bandaids.

I don't get viruses on my computer because of installing MS patches, but
because my computer is behind 2 different types of firewalls, and my AV is
ALWAYS up-to-date.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
Well now, a real problem not related to SP2. Imagine that?

Here is what it says.

NTFS File System Corruption
In very rare circumstances, the NTFS $MFT or $BITMAP
metafiles may become corrupted and result in lost disk
space. To identify and fix this issue, run the chkdsk /F
command against the volume in question. Toward the end of
chkdsk process, you receive the following message if the
$BITMAP metafile needs to be adjusted:
Correcting errors in the master file table's (MFT) BITMAP
attribute. CHKDSK discovered free space marked as
allocated in the volume bitmap. Windows has made
corrections to the file system.

the link, near the bottom.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-
us;315688


Hardware again.
OK, today's problem root casue score.

Hardware 4, SP2 love.

Set and Match points due by the 25th. ;)

SJ
 
Your sure type fast. lol

This is like bidding on EBay. ;)
OK, this next unrelated Sp2 question is goig for 12 words.
Do I hear more?

:)

SJ
 
Well, originally this computer had an 80 gig drive with one FAT
partition (36MB, hidden, some type of diagnostic), and one essentially
80 gig partition. Partition Magic was used to resize the partition to
40 gigs, and a new 2nd 40 gig partition was created. I think that the
Partition Magic operation had something to do with it.

If we run CHKDSK from within Windows, it reports errors, doesn't give
any details at all about the type of errors, and says to run Chkdsk
during boot. When we do that (/F), it seems to check the disk but
neither report errors nor fix anything.

But clearly, something is not right, although the system MOSTLY works ok
(Not withstanding the "Corrupt or inaccesible file: C:\$Mft" warning in
the system tray when attempting to install SP2).

Unless someone has a better idea, two things that I'm considering are:

-Wipe the entire partition and reinstall from scratch
-Convert the partition (32 gigs) to FAT32 with Part. Magic
 
Well, originally this computer had an 80 gig drive with one FAT
partition (36MB, hidden, some type of diagnostic), and one essentially
80 gig partition. Partition Magic was used to resize the partition to
40 gigs, and a new 2nd 40 gig partition was created. I think that the
Partition Magic operation had something to do with it.

If we run CHKDSK from within Windows, it reports errors, doesn't give
any details at all about the type of errors, and says to run Chkdsk
during boot. When we do that (/F), it seems to check the disk but
neither report errors nor fix anything.

But clearly, something is not right, although the system MOSTLY works ok
(Not withstanding the "Corrupt or inaccesible file: C:\$Mft" warning in
the system tray when attempting to install SP2).

Unless someone has a better idea, two things that I'm considering are:

-Wipe the entire partition and reinstall from scratch
-Convert the partition (32 gigs) to FAT32 with Part. Magic
Click to expand...
Try running chkdsk /r.

Also, the results of boot-time chkdsk's can be found in the
event viewer. (eventvwr.msc from the RUN box)
Click on Application, and doubleclick the entries on the
right. The results can be found in the entry with a source
of Winlogon.

Dave
 
I will try that, but I have little expectation of success.

Chkdsk/r locates bad sectors -- does a scan of the hard drive.

Problem is, that while with classic drives this might have done
something, with modern IDE drives, Windows will never see a bad sector
until the drive is failing catastrophically.

With modern IDE drives, what windows sees, until the drive is
catastrophically dying, is a "logical" or "virtual" drive that is always
perfect. If there are problems with a sector, the drive handles them
internally through "defect reallocation" -- the "bad" sector is so
marked bad (usually when it's still readable with retrys) and never used
again, and the data is moved to a spare good sector, in a different
place on the drive, all transparent to Windows. Windows will virtually
never see any problems at all until the drive is close to catastrophic
failure, and usually LONG after S.M.A.R.T. has been reporting errors and
impending drive failure.
 
...............
Also, the Dell system has a 36MB hidden FAT partition, it's the 1st
partition on the drive (C: and D: take up the rest of the 80 gig drive,
both NTFS). Anyone know what it is, and if there's an easy way to
access it and see what's in it?

We are thinking of blowing everything away and starting over with a
generic installation, but I'd rather not do that if we can get
completely comfortable with the current installation.
Click to expand...

That partition is the most important part of your harddisk in case you
need to really diagnose your system (hardware)!!!!!!!

It is used with the "Drivers, utilities and applications" CD that came with
your comnputer. You run "Diagnostics and utilities" from this CD.

I don't remember the procedure in detail, but when you need it you
will normally already have been in contact with DELL support because
of some problem and they will instruct you what to do.

regards Sven
 
What's odd is that as far as I can tell, there is no file C:\$MFT
Click to expand...

That looks more like the "crown jewels" of NTFS, which unfortunately
has poor maintenance tools. You only have fully-automated ChkDsk
modes, little technical feedback, and zero opportunity to vet changes
before these are applied.

Some aspects of NTFS may be subject to static limitations (others will
have to confirm or dispell this assertion) and it may be something
like this here - i.e. a Master File Table that is too small for the
extra file entries required by the SP2 installation process.

A sick MFT is bad news. Circumstances should rarely (if ever) force
you to "just" nuke everything and start over, but hey this is NTFS
that is "so good it doesn't need manual maintenance".

What I'd do is as follows:
- http://cquirke.mvps.org/9x/bthink.htm (check all hardware!)
- use BING to image C: to another HD, and test that

Partition imaging can be "dumb", i.e. a full transfer of everything
that preserves any file system errors, or "smart" that relies on file
system logic to recreate the same contents on a fresh file system
logic on the destination.

If you find the first fails, but the second works, then check
Properties to see whether your file and total byte counts are the
same, and if not, zoom in to subtrees to see what's missing. Set
Windows Explorer to show all files etc. before trying this - it's no
use working with it if it keeps lying to you.


-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Click to expand...
"If I'd known it was harmless, I'd have
killed it myself" (PKD)
 
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:15:34 -0400, Barry Watzman
Chkdsk/r locates bad sectors -- does a scan of the hard drive.
Problem is, that while with classic drives this might have done
something, with modern IDE drives, Windows will never see a bad sector
until the drive is failing catastrophically.
Click to expand...

Hm. The truth of that depends on how early you define "failing
catastrophically". I agree that just about everyone, from HD vendor
to MS, are trying to sweep problems under the rug - if you don't make
a concerted effort to spot and dodge problems, no-one else will.

Sounds paranoid? Read on...
With modern IDE drives, what windows sees, until the drive is
catastrophically dying, is a "logical" or "virtual" drive that is always
perfect. If there are problems with a sector, the drive handles them
internally through "defect reallocation" -- the "bad" sector is so
marked bad (usually when it's still readable with retrys) and never used
again, and the data is moved to a spare good sector, in a different
place on the drive, all transparent to Windows.
Click to expand...

This is true, and a process like this can happen at three layers:

1) HD's firmware defect management

This is what you refer to, and indeed you won't see any trace of these
"repairs' in Windows. The physical sector readdressing is done within
the HD, so nothing changes in the file systrem at all - which is why
this management is compatable with other OSs.

2) NTFS on the fly repair

FATxx is free of this, but NTFS will basically do the same thing "on
the fly" that the HD's firmware is trying to do. Is this useful, or
likely to screw up in a "too many cooks" scenario?

These changes may or may not be visible; knowing how autocratic ChkDsk
and AutoChk are (no user control, poor reporting buried in the swaps
of Event Viewer under "Winlogon", etc.), my hopes are low.

3) Explicit suface tests

ChkDsk /R, Win9x GUI Scandisk "thorough" and Win9x DOS mode Scandisk
"surface scan" all do the same thing - they test-read every sector in
the volume and, if it cannot be read within a certain number of
retries, they attempt to relocate the data at the cluster level.

Unlike (1), this is (at least for FATxx) visible, because you would
see the number of "bad clusters" reported and you'd see the B(ad)
blocks in the map if you did Scandisk surface from DOS mode.

4) S.M.A.R.T.

This is not an automatic defect management, but a "window" into what
the HD firmware's self-monitoring and defect management have been up
to. BIOS can usually report S.M.A.R.T. status on startup, but the
usual default is NOT to do so.

In addition, you can add 3rd-partyware to report S.M.A.R.T. status
(Windows *still* has no native ability to do this), and several HD
vendor diagnostics merely query S.M.A.R.T. status without checking the
HD disk surfaces at all when the "standard" or "quick" test is done.

5) 3rd-party diagnostics

These include HD vendor's downloadable tools (usually free), parts of
some test suites, and stand-alone utilities such as SpinRite. Some
may be able to disable the HD firmware's defect management, and thus
get a straight answer without this vendor's proxy trying to cover up.

The advantage of these is that they should be OS-agnostic, and should
not try to "fix" anything. Making the HD look "OK" until the
warranty's over is the HD vendor's interest; yours is to detect
failure early and get your data off safely.

6) Windows bad disk flag

Windows mailtains two state-of-filesystem flags, and checks these on
startup. If either flag is set, an automatic check of the file system
is done, with surface check if indicated.

The first flag is set when file updates are in progress, and thenm
cleared. If this is (left) set at boot time, a check of the file
system logic is done. This is the usual "bad exit" situation.

The second flag is set (and left set) if an attempt to access physical
disk fails. In response to this, a surface check of all volumes on
the affected HD is done. This may happen irrespective of whether the
last Windows session was properly shut down or not.
Windows will virtually never see any problems at all until the
drive is close to catastrophic failure, and usually LONG after
S.M.A.R.T. has been reporting errors and impending drive failure.
Click to expand...

False, in my experience - only in a few cases, even with BIOS
S.M.A.R.T. enabled (SOP on PCs I build), has S.M.A.R.T. reported a HD
as bad, before testing has shown latency or frank errors.

As mentioned, when HD firmware "fixes" a bad sector by remapping it,
no trace of this (outside possible details from S.M.A.R.T. - but most
views just say "OK" with no stats) is visible. But the process of
attempting this fix can be very visible indeed, due to latency - it
can take several seconds to "successfully" read a failing sector, due
to nested retries and attempts to "fix" this on the fly.

Suspect this if the PC slows down radically, with the HD activity LED
hard on, and either no HD noise (same-track retries) or cyclical
clacking (seek retries). This is how a failing HD usually presents.

The best way to "see" this latency is to do a DOS mode Scandisk
surface scan (which NTFS victims can't do, of course). This process
maintains a fine-grained cluster counter, and runs no other processes
underfoot that could add latency.

So you can *see* pauses in that counter, and know it's the HD (or
other hardware delays e.g. CPU thermal protection or interrupt floods)
and not other software that is the cause. You can't do this with
Win9x GUI's "thourough" test of ChkDsk /R.


-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Click to expand...
Trsut me, I won't make a mistake!
 
Back
Top