Screen captures and "Rules of Evedence"

[pop]

Is there a better news group or forum to ask this question?

A screen capture pasted into WordPad...

Is there a way to alter the image of a screen capture that is saved into
WordPad?

Accepted: Wordpad can "edit" things like image contract/brightness,
text wrapping, etc.

Son just lost a civil suit because the defendant, when shown very
incriminating captures of emails and messages from MySpace and
LiveJournal, "Altered, It's been altered."

He could not get the evidence to be accepted by the court.

I don't know how to capture a message and alter the text in a RTF file
in any useful way.

The defendant that night deleted the MySpace account and LiveJournal
accounts.

We want to file an appeal, and all the screen captures are still in
existance. Is there a way for them to be accepted by the court?

Our experience seems to suggest that there is no way to get computer
captured evidence into evidence because anything and everything can be
altered.

Thoughts?

Pop

 

[Pegasus \(MVP\)]

Is there a better news group or forum to ask this question?

A screen capture pasted into WordPad...

Is there a way to alter the image of a screen capture that is saved into
WordPad?

Accepted: Wordpad can "edit" things like image contract/brightness, text
wrapping, etc.

Son just lost a civil suit because the defendant, when shown very
incriminating captures of emails and messages from MySpace and
LiveJournal, "Altered, It's been altered."

He could not get the evidence to be accepted by the court.

I don't know how to capture a message and alter the text in a RTF file in
any useful way.

The defendant that night deleted the MySpace account and LiveJournal
accounts.

We want to file an appeal, and all the screen captures are still in
existance. Is there a way for them to be accepted by the court?

Our experience seems to suggest that there is no way to get computer
captured evidence into evidence because anything and everything can be
altered.

Thoughts?

Pop

You can alter any electronic file if you have the necessary skills
and/or tools. Furthermore, the alteration, if done properly, will
not be detectable.

 

[philo]

You can alter any electronic file if you have the necessary skills
and/or tools. Furthermore, the alteration, if done properly, will
not be detectable.

That's correct. An application such as Photoshop...with someone very skilled
could make virtually any alteration...
and it would be undetectable to the eye...*however* an expert might be able
to study the raw data and find evidence of altering.

At any rate...all one need do is look at most any satire publication and
there should be plenty of evidence showing how
easy it is to alter images...and to do it well

 

[Malke]

Is there a better news group or forum to ask this question?

A screen capture pasted into WordPad...

Is there a way to alter the image of a screen capture that is saved into
WordPad?

Accepted: Wordpad can "edit" things like image contract/brightness,
text wrapping, etc.

Son just lost a civil suit because the defendant, when shown very
incriminating captures of emails and messages from MySpace and
LiveJournal, "Altered, It's been altered."

He could not get the evidence to be accepted by the court.

I don't know how to capture a message and alter the text in a RTF file
in any useful way.

The defendant that night deleted the MySpace account and LiveJournal
accounts.

We want to file an appeal, and all the screen captures are still in
existance. Is there a way for them to be accepted by the court?

Our experience seems to suggest that there is no way to get computer
captured evidence into evidence because anything and everything can be
altered.

As the others have told you, it is quite easy to alter images on a
computer. Forensic computing is extremely specialized and precise. If
the computer hosting the files was not immediately removed by a licensed
computer forensic investigator and handled according to the exact
procedures necessary, you have no evidence whatsoever. Give it up
because the only person who will make money out of this will be the
attorneys.


Malke

 

[dobey]

Is there a better news group or forum to ask this question?

A screen capture pasted into WordPad...

Is there a way to alter the image of a screen capture that is saved into
WordPad?

Accepted: Wordpad can "edit" things like image contract/brightness, text
wrapping, etc.

Son just lost a civil suit because the defendant, when shown very
incriminating captures of emails and messages from MySpace and
LiveJournal, "Altered, It's been altered."

He could not get the evidence to be accepted by the court.

I don't know how to capture a message and alter the text in a RTF file in
any useful way.

The defendant that night deleted the MySpace account and LiveJournal
accounts.

We want to file an appeal, and all the screen captures are still in
existance. Is there a way for them to be accepted by the court?

Our experience seems to suggest that there is no way to get computer
captured evidence into evidence because anything and everything can be
altered.

Thoughts?

Pop

You would probably need to approach MySpace or LiveJournal to see if they
could verify the voracity of your claims with the actual files on their
server.

Even though deleted by the client, there is a chance a backup would exist. A
third party stat dec from someone at one of these websites would hold much
more weight. It depends on the type of data and whether it is backed up.

As others have pointed out a simple screen capture could be too easily
altered, so you would need others to verify the claims your son is making.

BTW you wouldn't alter the image from wordpad, you would alter it first,
then import it to wordpad.

 

[Patrick Keenan]

Is there a better news group or forum to ask this question?

Having finished my reply, I will come back to your first line and say that
the only appropriate place to ask this question is the offices of your
retained counsel.

You are asking for legal advice. You need to ask for that from legal
professionals, not from Usenet where you have no idea of who is responding
to you.

As to the technical aspects of your post, you do not have reliable evidence,
and cannot prove its origin.

You need to have your counsel explain why that is, and what it would have
taken to make it reliable and usable.

A screen capture pasted into WordPad...

Could be from anywhere. It's not at all difficult to create a fake page
and take a screenshot.

Is there a way to alter the image of a screen capture that is saved into
WordPad?

Sure there is. It's just an image file. You simply save it elsewhere and
modify it.

Not only that, WordPad can't tell you where the image *came from*.

Accepted: Wordpad can "edit" things like image contract/brightness, text
wrapping, etc.

And it will accept an image pasted from anywhere else, with no indication of
the actual source.

Son just lost a civil suit because the defendant,

Ah. You want legal advice. Hire a lawyer. Any legal advice you get
otherwise is less than worthless.

when shown very incriminating captures of emails and messages from MySpace
and LiveJournal, "Altered, It's been altered."

Sure, and there is no way for you to prove that they haven't been, or that
the images are even from those sources.

He could not get the evidence to be accepted by the court.

No kidding!

I don't know how to capture a message and alter the text in a RTF file in
any useful way.

There's no way to know or prove where the image actually originated,
particularly since...

The defendant that night deleted the MySpace account and LiveJournal
accounts.

Well, then, you probably can't rely on your captures.

Perhaps the counsel you retain can subpoena system logs and backups from
LiveJournal or MySpace... or not.

You'll have to ask questions like that of competent counsel. And pay for
it.

We want to file an appeal, and all the screen captures are still in
existance. Is there a way for them to be accepted by the court?

I would expect not, since it's so easy to challenge their authenticity and
no way to prove their origin.

But, if you want legal advice, you need to retain and pay competent counsel
familiar with these issues.

Our experience seems to suggest that there is no way to get computer
captured evidence into evidence because anything and everything can be
altered.

It's likely that you are missing key points in understanding this. You
need to have counsel explain them to you.

Thoughts?

Pop

First thought would be to retain and consult legal counsel familiar with
these specific issues.

A peer support group on Usenet is not an appropriate place to seek legal
advice.

HTH
-pk

 

[lurker]

That's correct. An application such as Photoshop...with someone very skilled
could make virtually any alteration...
and it would be undetectable to the eye...*however* an expert might be able
to study the raw data and find evidence of altering.

At any rate...all one need do is look at most any satire publication and
there should be plenty of evidence showing how
easy it is to alter images...and to do it well

The evidence is text notes.
It creates an attitude of "Knowledge" on our part on which we need to
make decisons, court don't count in that case.

One such case is a threat that is of great concern but not life
threatinging in the traditional sense. Note was to a friend (not ours).

 

[lurker]

Having finished my reply, I will come back to your first line and say that
the only appropriate place to ask this question is the offices of your
retained counsel.

You are asking for legal advice. You need to ask for that from legal
professionals, not from Usenet where you have no idea of who is responding
to you.

As to the technical aspects of your post, you do not have reliable evidence,
and cannot prove its origin.

You need to have your counsel explain why that is, and what it would have
taken to make it reliable and usable.


Could be from anywhere. It's not at all difficult to create a fake page
and take a screenshot.


Sure there is. It's just an image file. You simply save it elsewhere and
modify it.

Not only that, WordPad can't tell you where the image *came from*.



And it will accept an image pasted from anywhere else, with no indication of
the actual source.


Ah. You want legal advice. Hire a lawyer. Any legal advice you get
otherwise is less than worthless.


Sure, and there is no way for you to prove that they haven't been, or that
the images are even from those sources.


No kidding!


There's no way to know or prove where the image actually originated,
particularly since...


Well, then, you probably can't rely on your captures.

Perhaps the counsel you retain can subpoena system logs and backups from
LiveJournal or MySpace... or not.

You'll have to ask questions like that of competent counsel. And pay for
it.


I would expect not, since it's so easy to challenge their authenticity and
no way to prove their origin.

But, if you want legal advice, you need to retain and pay competent counsel
familiar with these issues.


It's likely that you are missing key points in understanding this. You
need to have counsel explain them to you.


First thought would be to retain and consult legal counsel familiar with
these specific issues.

A peer support group on Usenet is not an appropriate place to seek legal
advice.

HTH
-pk

Thanks for that..
Our attorney and his partners, none know the answers.

Obviously the opposition did.

Pop