Question about offering solutions here (head up, MVPs!)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Doug Kanter
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Doug Kanter

Some of the questions answered here require pretty involved answers, so a
human response is appropriate. But, many simpler answers can be easily found
in the Windows or Office help systems. For instance, in the Excel group,
someone asked "how do I add a pattern to a cell?" I directed him to the help
system, where typing his exact words produced an instantaneous answer.
Someone else gave him the method in another message, though.

Are we really serving the best interests of users by spoon-feeding them
answers to the simpler questions? I mean, if your kid says "I don't remember
whether to use 'principal' or 'principle' in this essay I'm writing", and
the dictionary's 3 feet away on the shelf, do you give the kid the answer,
or say "Open the dictionary"? You know: Teach them to fish (learn) instead
of just giving them a fish.
 
I'm not an MVP, so I'll keep this short, but I guess I have two thoughts on
this:

First, you're right about the learning issue. It's in the best
interests of every user to figure things out alone, or with perhaps a little
direction and not a step-by-step solution.

Second, because everyone comes in with different experience levels, we
have to keep in mind that some people who are asking what seems to be a
basic question are really at the end of their rope and just want an answer
(ie: a user asking how to set up a shared printer on a home LAN might be at
the end of their wit's end, while it isn't a difficult issue at all for an
MVP...but a guy asking why his boss' XP Pro laptop keeps show a BSOD really
needs an answer now and isn't interested in learning...he just wants a
solution).

I guess all I'm saying is that I think it's fine to sometimes give an answer
straight out without trying to teach the user in the process. However, I
think this should only be done if the user makes it clear that they've
already tried to fix it themselves and they just can't figure out it, time
is an issue, etc...

My $.02.

-Bob
 
On that last point, providing a Google link with a key phrase or words
used by the OP illustrates one self-help method. Telling them to put
those words into Office's help system serves the same end.
 
Doug Kanter said:
Some of the questions answered here require pretty involved answers, so a
human response is appropriate. But, many simpler answers can be easily
found in the Windows or Office help systems. For instance, in the Excel
group, someone asked "how do I add a pattern to a cell?" I directed him to
the help system, where typing his exact words produced an instantaneous
answer. Someone else gave him the method in another message, though.

Are we really serving the best interests of users by spoon-feeding them
answers to the simpler questions? I mean, if your kid says "I don't
remember whether to use 'principal' or 'principle' in this essay I'm
writing", and the dictionary's 3 feet away on the shelf, do you give the
kid the answer, or say "Open the dictionary"? You know: Teach them to fish
(learn) instead of just giving them a fish.
Click to expand...

Nothing is more useless or aggravating than the person who simply responds
with a link to a Knowledge Base argument or a google search list.

Does it serve the best interest of the individual poster to spoon-feed them
the solution to their question? You damned right it does. Anytime I can
get what I need delivered to me on a platter, it serves my best interest!

Now, it is an entirely different question to ask whether or not is serves
some mythical "greater good" of the user community as a whole. However,
that should not be the intent of these newsgroups. In my opinion, we help
individuals one problem at a time and create a historical records (e.g.
google groups) for others to find.

I don't believe reprimanding posters about asking questions that have been
answered "a thousand times" before is something that should be happening on
these groups. I don't believe self-appointed spelling and grammar cops
belong here. IT professionals, like the machines and networks they manage,
_serve_ at the whim and will of the end-user. That is the goal and
destination.

carl
 
Vagabond Software said:
Nothing is more useless or aggravating than the person who simply responds
with a link to a Knowledge Base argument or a google search list.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with offering a ready made google search link, because google
is not the be-all and end-all of solutions. However, if you can post a link
to a KB article that's exactly what the user needs, it saves someone having
to basically re-word what the article says. And, the user has now learned
that the KB exists.


Does it serve the best interest of the individual poster to spoon-feed
them the solution to their question? You damned right it does. Anytime I
can get what I need delivered to me on a platter, it serves my best
interest!
Click to expand...

Why? Because you're in the middle of a project that requires an answer
before you can continue? For a very basic question, like "How do I add a
pattern to a cell?", the answer is about 14 seconds away in the help system.
Isn't that better than waiting for what seems like forever (sometimes) for a
newsgroup response? And, you've learned that the help system exists,
something many users are unaware of because they never explore the menus.


Now, it is an entirely different question to ask whether or not is serves
some mythical "greater good" of the user community as a whole. However,
that should not be the intent of these newsgroups. In my opinion, we help
individuals one problem at a time and create a historical records (e.g.
google groups) for others to find.
Click to expand...

I guess we'll disagree on this. You've seen questions like "How do I change
the desktop wallpaper?" I see nothing wrong with pointing the user to the
help system on his/her machine, and even suggesting what word(s) to put in
the search box. Obviously, there are users whose question does not have a
concise answer - it requires a conversation to clarify the problem before it
can be answered.
 
Doug said:
I don't agree with offering a ready made google search link, because google
is not the be-all and end-all of solutions. However, if you can post a link
to a KB article that's exactly what the user needs, it saves someone having
to basically re-word what the article says. And, the user has now learned
that the KB exists.




Why? Because you're in the middle of a project that requires an answer
before you can continue? For a very basic question, like "How do I add a
pattern to a cell?", the answer is about 14 seconds away in the help system.
Isn't that better than waiting for what seems like forever (sometimes) for a
newsgroup response? And, you've learned that the help system exists,
something many users are unaware of because they never explore the menus.






I guess we'll disagree on this. You've seen questions like "How do I change
the desktop wallpaper?" I see nothing wrong with pointing the user to the
help system on his/her machine, and even suggesting what word(s) to put in
the search box. Obviously, there are users whose question does not have a
concise answer - it requires a conversation to clarify the problem before it
can be answered.
Click to expand...

From strictly a teaching standpoint, one really needs to decide
on a case-by-case basis whether or not to provide a definitive
answer or point the questioner in the right direction. The real
problem over the past 10 to 15 years has been that of "dumbing
down". Is there a remedial action to this? It might already be
too late. Too many computer users have been lulled into "using
the system" versus "learning about computers, applications and
using them". A lot of tricks and shortcuts are forgotten; technique
is no longer taught and logical use is non-existent. People have
forgotten how to think their way out of the proverbial paper bag.
One of my favorites is: "The use of the GUI has turned the brain
to goo." This is particularly poignant when a command line entry
eliminates a dozen or so mouse clicks. We all have our end-points
and respond accordingly.
 
Ghostrider said:
From strictly a teaching standpoint, one really needs to decide
on a case-by-case basis whether or not to provide a definitive
answer or point the questioner in the right direction. The real
problem over the past 10 to 15 years has been that of "dumbing
down". Is there a remedial action to this? It might already be
too late. Too many computer users have been lulled into "using
the system" versus "learning about computers, applications and
using them". A lot of tricks and shortcuts are forgotten; technique
is no longer taught and logical use is non-existent. People have
forgotten how to think their way out of the proverbial paper bag.
One of my favorites is: "The use of the GUI has turned the brain
to goo." This is particularly poignant when a command line entry
eliminates a dozen or so mouse clicks. We all have our end-points
and respond accordingly.
Click to expand...

Might be interesting to try and guess the ages of people asking questions
here, and see if the ages made sense alongside the type of question being
asked. But, you can't ask about age any more. :-)
 
Hi Doug,

It always amazes me that people can find newsgroups but not find Help.
However, I think that people think of searching Help as searching through an
index and not knowing what things are called, etc. so they just plain don't
expect to find what they're after. Imagine thinking that you had to read a
two-inch book to find an answer. Also, they might not realize that the Help
(specifically Office) is pretty clearly explained. For Office it is, but for
Windows there is a lot of computer terminology that people are just plain
afraid of.

I personally have great luck finding things in Help, the MSDN Library, the
Web, etc. because I just seem to know what keywords to use and what order to
put them in. My husband, on the other hand, is a left hander who thinks
differently than other people. So many times he can't find things on a web
page/site that I can find right away. It seems that my mind works just like
the site designer's does, and his is so different that he's just plain lost.
And by the way, he's a network/desktop support person so he's not a computer
troglodyte.

Some people are not "researchers" like you and I are. They're learning
styles are such that they feel they need a human to explain things to them.
Of course, behind all the documentation are humans!

One thing no one has really hit on in this thread is the sense of
"community" Microsoft is seeking to foster in the newsgroups/forums. They
want the friendly, human touch so people feel comfortable and safe. For
example, in many of my answers I add a few extra tidbits that I would have
wanted to know when I was newly working in the same area of my product or
going from a newbie to a Windows and Office "power user."

I think the important thing is, after you've answered the question you can
say, "By the way, if you click on Office Help, and type your question in the
search box, you will often find just what you're looking for."
 
Cindy said:
It always amazes me that people can find newsgroups but not find Help.
However, I think that people think of searching Help as searching
through an index and not knowing what things are called, etc. so they
just plain don't expect to find what they're after.
Click to expand...


Part of the reason for the underuse of Help is that in prior versions of
Windows, Help wasn't much help. Many people who have had poor experience
with Help in the past don't realize how much it has been improved.
 
Ken Blake said:
Part of the reason for the underuse of Help is that in prior versions of
Windows, Help wasn't much help. Many people who have had poor experience
with Help in the past don't realize how much it has been improved.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with that. Microsoft Windows ME taught me well and good
about clicking on Help and Support Center... that is to NEVER do it.

carl
 
As a somewhat newbie who has read some hundreds of posts I find your
conversations enlightening. I'm just an old geezer trying to learn, more for
therapy than anything else. A 2 fingered typist that often hits the caps key
and catches the bejabbers for yelling. I don't usually post but just use the
communities for information to better myself. They have certainly helped me
restore my machines several time over. And I for one appreciate all you fine
people for taken the effort to reply. Strokes the kind that come from the
heart and not from the typier can really slow one down.

Thank you, one and all.
 
Doug said:
Might be interesting to try and guess the ages of people asking questions
here, and see if the ages made sense alongside the type of question being
asked. But, you can't ask about age any more. :-)
Click to expand...

I'm 59, you?

Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
 
What is wrong to ask someone there age.
They have four main choices
Ignore you
Lie
Tell the truth
Tell you to mind your own business.
Go ahead and ask!
Antioch
 
thuleXbird said:
As a somewhat newbie who has read some hundreds of posts I find your
conversations enlightening. I'm just an old geezer trying to learn, more
for
therapy than anything else. A 2 fingered typist that often hits the caps
key
and catches the bejabbers for yelling. I don't usually post but just use
the
communities for information to better myself. They have certainly helped
me
restore my machines several time over. And I for one appreciate all you
fine
people for taken the effort to reply. Strokes the kind that come from the
heart and not from the typier can really slow one down.

Thank you, one and all.
Click to expand...
I agree with what you say - being an old git myself.
I do not mind getting directed to MS help etc - I find it a good way to
learn.
More often than not I have already been into help, and have not always found
an answer.
I do not always find it user friendly - obviously need more practice.
Rgds
Antioch
 
antioch said:
I agree with what you say - being an old git myself.
I do not mind getting directed to MS help etc - I find it a good way to
learn.
More often than not I have already been into help, and have not always
found an answer.
I do not always find it user friendly - obviously need more practice.
Rgds
Antioch
Click to expand...

I only suggest it to people after I try finding the answer to their
question, and see that it's right at the top of the search results.
Otherwise, it can be just as frustrating as doing a google search and
getting 12,982 hits, the first 100 of which take you to tech discussion
sites that require you to "join" before you can view anything.
 
Doug said:
Some of the questions answered here require pretty involved answers, so a
human response is appropriate. But, many simpler answers can be easily found
in the Windows or Office help systems. For instance, in the Excel group,
someone asked "how do I add a pattern to a cell?" I directed him to the help
system, where typing his exact words produced an instantaneous answer.
Someone else gave him the method in another message, though.

Are we really serving the best interests of users by spoon-feeding them
answers to the simpler questions? I mean, if your kid says "I don't remember
whether to use 'principal' or 'principle' in this essay I'm writing", and
the dictionary's 3 feet away on the shelf, do you give the kid the answer,
or say "Open the dictionary"? You know: Teach them to fish (learn) instead
of just giving them a fish.
Click to expand...

Let's see, one of the reasons people use the internet is to learn
things. Why does it matter to you whether someone learns what they
need to know from a web page or a newsgroup? In either case the
information comes from someone who already knew the answer and that
person probably got their information from someone else who in turn got
it from someone else etc. Whether directly or indirectly someone
obviously had to teach you about computers at some point. If I know
the answer to someone's question I'll either tell them directly or give
them suggestions on where to find the answer. If you don't feel like
answering someone's question whether it's about computers or let's a
cooking question on rec.food.cooking then don't answer it, but nobody
likes a lecture.
 
Let's see, one of the reasons people use the internet is to learn
things. Why does it matter to you whether someone learns what they
need to know from a web page or a newsgroup? In either case the
information comes from someone who already knew the answer and that
person probably got their information from someone else who in turn got
it from someone else etc. Whether directly or indirectly someone
obviously had to teach you about computers at some point. If I know
the answer to someone's question I'll either tell them directly or give
them suggestions on where to find the answer. If you don't feel like
answering someone's question whether it's about computers or let's a
cooking question on rec.food.cooking then don't answer it, but nobody
likes a lecture.
Click to expand...

And now, factually speaking, I have a teenage son. Whenever he finds a new
way to do or learn independently, he says "Cool.." Or maybe he doesn't
always say that, but he'll do more of what he just learned. This is a normal
part of becoming an adult, or at least it used to be. I'm not saying we
should withhold answers from people here, because sometimes the answers
simply don't exist in the help system. But, in the example I originally
gave, the answer was the first one in the help search. Would it serve the
user to know he/she could get the answer within 30 seconds, instead of
having to wait for responses here?
 
Doug said:
And now, factually speaking, I have a teenage son. Whenever he finds a new
way to do or learn independently, he says "Cool.." Or maybe he doesn't
always say that, but he'll do more of what he just learned. This is a normal
part of becoming an adult, or at least it used to be. I'm not saying we
should withhold answers from people here, because sometimes the answers
simply don't exist in the help system. But, in the example I originally
gave, the answer was the first one in the help search. Would it serve the
user to know he/she could get the answer within 30 seconds, instead of
having to wait for responses here?
Click to expand...

Well Doug, to me it is often that I help out in the groups here for
selfish reasons. I do it because it is free experience in my field of
work, computer support. I do it because I like being challenged and I
know inevitably sooner or later I will read something or reply to a post
where I really have to work hard to find the answer. That is when I
really learn and increase my knowledge. The great thing is it also
happens to be helping someone else too, but I still do it for selfish
reasons. Before I can answer someone, I need to make sure I understand
the answer which sometimes requires extensive research on my part before
I answer. If I end up spoon feeding, fine. If not, fine. I lurk in
the groups more than I reply, again because I learn that way.
 
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